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Mon 30 Aug: SL: Warrington Wolves v St Helens KO 19:45 (TV)


Who will win?  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • Warrington Wolves
      12
    • St Helens
      9

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  • Poll closed on 30/08/21 at 19:15

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10 hours ago, M j M said:

It's a balancing act but by the end the Wire players were distracted trying to wind him up which only worked in Saints favour.

I agree with that, it worked. I am not a fan of that sort of behaviour though or the constant winding up, patting on the head or laughing in the face of opponents.

IMHO Bentley takes it too far, he has always pushed it but since coming back from injury he appears to be on a mission. Personally, I am getting to the stage where I’d be happier if he left before I started booing him. 

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A good win for Saints, we seemed to be on top in the first 20mins or so, and then when Walmsley went off Wire came right back into it. The Williams try was one of the best ive seen so far this season. I thought the second half Saints were more dominant, but i was puzzled by Wire going for the 2pts, which came to nothing. Welsby & Dodd really worked well together.
As for “James penalty penalty Bentley” i was shouting for him to be taken off and then he goes and scores, and next i was saying “what a great player, ive always liked him”. Percival’s try was really good but wire should’ve had him. It was my first away game since the GF in 2019 and i really enjoyed it, the atmosphere was excellent from both sets of fans. I don’t understand why kids(it is mostly kids isn’t it ?) who take flares/smoke bombs or whatever into grounds. Do Wire have cctv if they do they must have a rough idea who it was. Someone near the back of the stand needed medical treatment as he had cut his head open, and the good old St John’s Ambulance were there to save the day.

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Can't help but feel there was an element of 'playing them at their own game' for Saints last night after Wire's Oscar winning performances against them earlier in the season.

I was worried for Saints that their young inexperienced halves would get 'schooled' by 2 experienced International, NRL players in Widdop & Williams but it was quite the opposite with Wesby & Dodd being the ones who shone, all be it behind a pack that had good go forward all night.

It was good to see Percival getting back to form after a pretty injury ravaged last couple of years. Neither Mamo or Ratchford are slouches and he showed both a clean pair of heels with his try.

That result pretty much guarantees Saints a top 2 finish now (barring them losing all 3 of their last games) and a week off in the play-off's so to some extent they can relax now and just concentrate on building towards the knock-out games. Same for Wire as they can't finish lower than 3rd. though they will have to play knock-out rugby all the way through now with no breaks if they want silverware and will have an away game to get to the GF.

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I'm just glad Chris Hill was OK after his HIA.  He does well to beat those tests every time we play them and luckily for him they come at the end of one of his spells which is fortunate for the lad.

Edited by FearTheVee
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12 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

I'm just glad Chris Hill was OK after his HIA.  He does well to beat those tests every time we play them and luckily for him they come at the end of one of his spells which is fortunate for the lad.

Is there any tactical advantage in going off for a HIA over a normal interchange?

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2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Is there any tactical advantage in going off for a HIA over a normal interchange?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as an interchange, and therefore you get 9 for the game rather than 8.

 

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18 minutes ago, johnh1 said:

I think it does count if he fails the HIA or if he doesn’t return to the field within 10 (or 15) minutes.

I think that sounds right and I think it's 15 minutes. So you then get him back on, he does less than 5 minutes before halftime, gets another 15 minutes, and is an 80 minute player with respect to his interchange use.

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1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

 

I was worried for Saints that their young inexperienced halves would get 'schooled' by 2 experienced International, NRL players in Widdop & Williams but it was quite the opposite with Wesby & Dodd being the ones who shone, all be it behind a pack that had good go forward all night.

It was good to see Percival getting back to form after a pretty injury ravaged last couple of years. Neither Mamo or Ratchford are slouches and he showed both a clean pair of heels with his try.

 

On this point - I'm not sure that is true. They both had good games, but ultimately did not really do too much to capitalise on the forwards dominance. It's not a criticism as they are young and not first choice - but Williams was by far the best halfback on show last night, and in a team going backwards he pretty much dragged Wire back into it on his own. I'm excited to see what he will do with a pack on the front foot. But the stat that is quite interesting is that it was 2 clean breaks apiece.

And the point on Percival is odd - he got caught for pace by three Wire players - Ratchford and Mamo got in each others way an Currie caught him but was ineffective. What Percival did well was use the fend to propel himself further forward - I was disappointed with the three Wire chasers on that though, who all had Percival for pace, but not one of them went for the legs to bring him down.

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1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Can't help but feel there was an element of 'playing them at their own game' for Saints last night after Wire's Oscar winning performances against them earlier in the season.

Did you just blame Warrington for the Saints players' appalling gamesmanship?

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37 minutes ago, M j M said:

Did you just blame Warrington for the Saints players' appalling gamesmanship?

I'm saying they learned their lesson from the first game. Wire showed you can feign injury, milk penalties and 'manipulate the officials' get the game played at your own pace and last night Saints used some of Wire's very own 'gamesmanship' tactics back at them.

Several Wire players spent more time trying to wind up Bentley than concentrating on playing the game and in the end they were the ones getting frustrated.  Players like Widdop couldn't keep their cool and their frustrations were there for all to see (though Bentley is a complete knob and will end up costing us a game sooner rather than later).

If your going to use grubby gamesmanship tactics to win games then don't complain when other teams use them back against you.

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47 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I'm saying they learned their lesson from the first game. Wire showed you can feign injury, milk penalties and 'manipulate the officials' get the game played at your own pace and last night Saints used some of Wire's very own 'gamesmanship' tactics back at them.

I'm genuinely amused that you think St Helens have never deployed, or even thought about, such deceitful behaviour before seeing Warrington do it (I don't recall) last time you played them.

Would you like us to collate a list of incidents to jog your memory?

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

On this point - I'm not sure that is true. They both had good games, but ultimately did not really do too much to capitalise on the forwards dominance. It's not a criticism as they are young and not first choice - but Williams was by far the best halfback on show last night, and in a team going backwards he pretty much dragged Wire back into it on his own. I'm excited to see what he will do with a pack on the front foot. But the stat that is quite interesting is that it was 2 clean breaks apiece.

And the point on Percival is odd - he got caught for pace by three Wire players - Ratchford and Mamo got in each others way an Currie caught him but was ineffective. What Percival did well was use the fend to propel himself further forward - I was disappointed with the three Wire chasers on that though, who all had Percival for pace, but not one of them went for the legs to bring him down.

I think that’s a fair summing up but I definitely like the look of Dodd—- a genuine threat every time he has the ball and although it pains me to say it, I’m excited to see him play. I’m still to be convinced about Welsby and not sure what his best position is—- hope he’s not flattering to deceive, playing most weeks behind a dominant pack. 
I think the game was won by the pack— Matty Lees is a great player now and will only get better— Wire definitely need a couple of forwards to get us on the front foot—- Hughes and J Clark are smaller than a lot of outside backs . So through gritted teeth I say, well done Saints, on this occasion you deserved the victory. 
Looking forward to the Cats match— come on you Dragons 

 

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6 minutes ago, M j M said:

I'm genuinely amused that you think St Helens have never deployed, or even thought about, such deceitful behaviour before seeing Warrington do it (I don't recall) last time you played them.

Would you like us to collate a list of incidents to jog your memory?

You keep your own little lists if it amuses you.

At least next year your wife beater can share his travel expenses with Bentley for what will be their regular visits to the Disciplinary every Tuesday. 

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3 minutes ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

I think the game was won by the pack— Matty Lees is a great player now and will only get better— 

 

Lees is finally getting back to the form that saw him play for the England Knights and be player of the tour to PNG. The cheap shot by fatty Ferres nearly ended his career and its taken him a long time to get his fitness and his confidence back. I still think he's a few Kg's light of where he needs to be in order to step up again to full international.

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18 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

You keep your own little lists if it amuses you.

At least next year your wife beater can share his travel expenses with Bentley for what will be their regular visits to the Disciplinary every Tuesday. 

Aww bless.

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1 hour ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

I think that’s a fair summing up but I definitely like the look of Dodd—- a genuine threat every time he has the ball and although it pains me to say it, I’m excited to see him play. I’m still to be convinced about Welsby and not sure what his best position is—- hope he’s not flattering to deceive, playing most weeks behind a dominant pack. 
I think the game was won by the pack— Matty Lees is a great player now and will only get better— Wire definitely need a couple of forwards to get us on the front foot—- Hughes and J Clark are smaller than a lot of outside backs . So through gritted teeth I say, well done Saints, on this occasion you deserved the victory. 
Looking forward to the Cats match— come on you Dragons 

 

Yeah, as I say my post wasn't a criticism of them at all, more addressing the criticism of Wire's halves, when one of them was the most creative player on the pitch. I still have some rather large issues with Widdop, he is too indirect, but he has had a good season so I should maybe give him more credit. 

Couldn't agree more on the forwards. The metres from the forwards last night was not good enough - credit must go to Saints' defence, but some of the forwards are better than last night showed. Philbin is a shadow of his former self, Hughes has gone backward, and J Clarke has never been good enough for Wire imho, but he is a perfect representation of Steve Price on the pitch.

Overall I was relatively pleased with the way we kept the game alive last night, I thought Saints were dominant for large spells, but we showed real character and had a dig.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Yeah, as I say my post wasn't a criticism of them at all, more addressing the criticism of Wire's halves, when one of them was the most creative player on the pitch. I still have some rather large issues with Widdop, he is too indirect, but he has had a good season so I should maybe give him more credit. 

Couldn't agree more on the forwards. The metres from the forwards last night was not good enough - credit must go to Saints' defence, but some of the forwards are better than last night showed. Philbin is a shadow of his former self, Hughes has gone backward, and J Clarke has never been good enough for Wire imho, but he is a perfect representation of Steve Price on the pitch.

Overall I was relatively pleased with the way we kept the game alive last night, I thought Saints were dominant for large spells, but we showed real character and had a dig.

While I agree that metres with the ball was a big factor last night, I am not sure that the fault lays just at the feet of the forwards.  In my view, the biggest difference in this area was the contribution of Makinson, Naiqama, Percival and Grace in the exit sets.  It was far superior to the contribution from the Wire backline and got the Saints on the front foot in sets time and again.

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3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

You keep your own little lists if it amuses you.

At least next year your wife beater can share his travel expenses with Bentley for what will be their regular visits to the Disciplinary every Tuesday. 

Maybe they can meet up with Makinson for a drink afterwards because that grub is bound to be back there PDQ.

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5 hours ago, Dave T said:

On this point - I'm not sure that is true. They both had good games, but ultimately did not really do too much to capitalise on the forwards dominance. It's not a criticism as they are young and not first choice - but Williams was by far the best halfback on show last night, and in a team going backwards he pretty much dragged Wire back into it on his own. I'm excited to see what he will do with a pack on the front foot. But the stat that is quite interesting is that it was 2 clean breaks apiece.

And the point on Percival is odd - he got caught for pace by three Wire players - Ratchford and Mamo got in each others way an Currie caught him but was ineffective. What Percival did well was use the fend to propel himself further forward - I was disappointed with the three Wire chasers on that though, who all had Percival for pace, but not one of them went for the legs to bring him down.

 

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Yeah, as I say my post wasn't a criticism of them at all, more addressing the criticism of Wire's halves, when one of them was the most creative player on the pitch. I still have some rather large issues with Widdop, he is too indirect, but he has had a good season so I should maybe give him more credit. 

Couldn't agree more on the forwards. The metres from the forwards last night was not good enough - credit must go to Saints' defence, but some of the forwards are better than last night showed. Philbin is a shadow of his former self, Hughes has gone backward, and J Clarke has never been good enough for Wire imho, but he is a perfect representation of Steve Price on the pitch.

Overall I was relatively pleased with the way we kept the game alive last night, I thought Saints were dominant for large spells, but we showed real character and had a dig.

 

31 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

While I agree that metres with the ball was a big factor last night, I am not sure that the fault lays just at the feet of the forwards.  In my view, the biggest difference in this area was the contribution of Makinson, Naiqama, Percival and Grace in the exit sets.  It was far superior to the contribution from the Wire backline and got the Saints on the front foot in sets time and again.

Interestingly the stats seem to support Dunbar's view more than Dave T's.

In the starting packs (including hookers), Saints made 365m, while Wire made 349m. Looking at the subs, Saints made 177m while Wire made 139m, so Saints making 54m more among the forwards.

If you look at the centres and wingers, Saints made 449m while Wire made 320m, i.e. Saints made 129m more. 

Interestingly, Wire also made twice as many tackle busts (39 compared with 17 for Saints). The low dummy half metres (58m across Roby, Clark and Walker) support my initial feelings from the match that it was a slow ruck with very few ruck infringements penalised. 

In total, Saints made 150m/15% more metres than Warrington. I'm not sure that justifies how poor the Wire spine was. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

While I agree that metres with the ball was a big factor last night, I am not sure that the fault lays just at the feet of the forwards.  In my view, the biggest difference in this area was the contribution of Makinson, Naiqama, Percival and Grace in the exit sets.  It was far superior to the contribution from the Wire backline and got the Saints on the front foot in sets time and again.

Unfortunately we are now carrying a disinterested Lineham, Charnley is out of favour and Ashton must not be fit yet meaning we were absolutely weaker there. I think Saints were more dominant in the ruck, Clarke never got a sniff. 

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2 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

 

 

 

Interestingly the stats seem to support Dunbar's view more than Dave T's.

In the starting packs (including hookers), Saints made 365m, while Wire made 349m. Looking at the subs, Saints made 177m while Wire made 139m, so Saints making 54m more among the forwards.

If you look at the centres and wingers, Saints made 449m while Wire made 320m, i.e. Saints made 129m more. 

Interestingly, Wire also made twice as many tackle busts (39 compared with 17 for Saints). The low dummy half metres (58m across Roby, Clark and Walker) support my initial feelings from the match that it was a slow ruck with very few ruck infringements penalised. 

In total, Saints made 150m/15% more metres than Warrington. I'm not sure that justifies how poor the Wire spine was. 

 

Where the stats don't always tell the full story is the absence of territory. Saints made 10 to 15% more metres through the same carries, but the game was played far more in Wire territory than Saints'. I know we can't be too selective around metres, but Percival's metres are boosted by c70m from his try and Currie's with his try. Of course these count, but they aren't the hard graft that we are discussing. It was telling that Wire had to score their two tries from long range. 

The stats show their forwards made more yards, and their three-quarters made more yards. Hence my point that Saints were the better team for large parts of the game. 

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On 30/08/2021 at 00:27, yipyee said:

Can see Welsby and Dodd offering a different angle and maybe some off the cuff play which will bamboozle the wolves.

Saints by 8 for me.

Only 2 off.. was right about the halves though

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