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Fear Of Relegation


RayCee
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Just now, whatmichaelsays said:

Fair point. It must have passed my memory. 

I had to cheque but I seemed to recall looking forward to it and tbh it not being a classic! 

Personally I enjoy P&R as it creates more stories, I dislike people suggesting it is distasteful and we are watching the equivalent of a car crash and celebrating people's misery, this is sport and they are sporting stories. TV and media enjoy these and will always follow these stories, because they make for good sporting moments. 

But none of that changes the fact that it may not be the best option for RL, where funding is very tight and bridging that gap can be difficult. 

I do have some issues with closed shops though, I think it removes interest and excitement for a group of clubs at the top and bottom, and I do worry about the coasting of bottom teams. 

A problem in RL is that we didn't see licensing through well enough. There were some strong signs, but we weren't disciplined enough to demand standards or persevere with it for longer than the 6 years. 

Personally I can live with the current structure, 12 or 14 teams, 6 team playoff and 1 up, 1 down. And just carry on, year after year. 

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15 hours ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Might be on my own here but I did not enjoy watching Hull KR last season.

To me it looked like they were taking the mick, slinging the ball about anywhere.

If it did not come off, so what, who cares?

Thats how I felt watching Leigh in the championship under licencing , spent more time chatting than watching the game , till eventually it was just going to away games for a day out on the beer 

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24 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I had to cheque but I seemed to recall looking forward to it and tbh it not being a classic! 

Personally I enjoy P&R as it creates more stories, I dislike people suggesting it is distasteful and we are watching the equivalent of a car crash and celebrating people's misery, this is sport and they are sporting stories. TV and media enjoy these and will always follow these stories, because they make for good sporting moments. 

But none of that changes the fact that it may not be the best option for RL, where funding is very tight and bridging that gap can be difficult. 

I do have some issues with closed shops though, I think it removes interest and excitement for a group of clubs at the top and bottom, and I do worry about the coasting of bottom teams. 

A problem in RL is that we didn't see licensing through well enough. There were some strong signs, but we weren't disciplined enough to demand standards or persevere with it for longer than the 6 years. 

Personally I can live with the current structure, 12 or 14 teams, 6 team playoff and 1 up, 1 down. And just carry on, year after year. 

Agree with most of that. I used to be strongly against P&R in Rugby League as I felt it was detrimental to the development of clubs and resulted in short term fixes….patching the roof rather than fix it properly. That’s still true but clubs coasting along and knowing they can’t be relegated doesn’t make for exciting games.
The argument was that no RL player ever gives anything less than 100% and professional pride would stop them from just going through the motions but it didn’t quite turn out like that.
 

As you point out, licensing wasn’t done properly either so in effect we had teams safe from relegation but didn’t really reap the benefits. It wouldn’t make sense to have had Catalans relegated early in their life but you can always make exceptions if the end result outweighs a bit of inconsistency and even hypocrisy.

 

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11 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Be very very careful of what exactly?

I know a group who have signed and the community club were paid for each player. I was told they always had to pay, and witnessed it, so no reason to believe it doesnt happen or they lied to me. It happened to be academy age but as far as I'm aware it's all ages if they come from a community club.

 Firstly you said

"Every single player who has signed professional forms who came through an amateur club there is a payment to the community club"

 I specifically mentioned kids that are signed by pro club's which would be under academy age on retainers, you then you conclude with

"But as far as I'm aware it's all ages if they come from a community club"

That was why I said be careful of your wording, unless you know the answer exactly, "as far as I am aware" isn't really conclusive, is it?

 

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7 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Agree with most of that. I used to be strongly against P&R in Rugby League as I felt it was detrimental to the development of clubs and resulted in short term fixes….patching the roof rather than fix it properly. That’s still true but clubs coasting along and knowing they can’t be relegated doesn’t make for exciting games.
The argument was that no RL player ever gives anything less than 100% and professional pride would stop them from just going through the motions but it didn’t quite turn out like that.
 

As you point out, licensing wasn’t done properly either so in effect we had teams safe from relegation but didn’t really reap the benefits. It wouldn’t make sense to have had Catalans relegated early in their life but you can always make exceptions if the end result outweighs a bit of inconsistency and even hypocrisy.

 

I was agreeing with you all the way John until the last paragraph, if by 'making exceptions' you mean protecting any club from relegation whilst others in the same comp can be relegated then I will disagree with that.

My opinion of course.

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

I was agreeing with you all the way John until the last paragraph, if by 'making exceptions' you mean protecting any club from relegation whilst others in the same comp can be relegated then I will disagree with that.

My opinion of course.

Your opinion of course.

But it would have been absolute madness to potentially strangle Catalans at birth and prevent the occasion of last night happening in order to appease some moaning old gits that it ‘wasn’t fair’. Sometimes the end justifies the means. 
Rugby League has precious few success stories to show off but a sold out play off semi final, (that no English clubs seem to manage) in the south of France, is most definitely one. 

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13 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Amateur clubs are already rewarded when a player signs pro

David my understanding is SL pay about £250, I would suggest you put a 0 on that when signing a FT SL contract not the academy one. My other question would be which club ie the one they had spent 8 years at or the one the SL club asked them to play at?

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56 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 Firstly you said

"Every single player who has signed professional forms who came through an amateur club there is a payment to the community club"

 I specifically mentioned kids that are signed by pro club's which would be under academy age on retainers, you then you conclude with

"But as far as I'm aware it's all ages if they come from a community club"

That was why I said be careful of your wording, unless you know the answer exactly, "as far as I am aware" isn't really conclusive, is it?

 

Not sure what your driving at, I'm telling you what I have seen and been told and stand by it.

What do you mean about retainers? Are you suggesting something dodgy? 

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38 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

David my understanding is SL pay about £250, I would suggest you put a 0 on that when signing a FT SL contract not the academy one. My other question would be which club ie the one they had spent 8 years at or the one the SL club asked them to play at?

Not sure which club gets paid or whether it's shared but you've confirmed my understanding that community clubs get paid when a player signs for a SL club

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38 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Your opinion of course.

But it would have been absolute madness to potentially strangle Catalans at birth and prevent the occasion of last night happening in order to appease some moaning old gits that it ‘wasn’t fair’. Sometimes the end justifies the means. 
Rugby League has precious few success stories to show off but a sold out play off semi final, (that no English clubs seem to manage) in the south of France, is most definitely one. 

Correct me if I am wrong John, but wasn't Widnes the sacrificial lamb so to speak to allow Catalan the luxury of avoiding relegation?

Could you say with utmost certainty that if Widnes had been allowed to stay in SL that they would have not gone from strength to strength and once again become a major force in the game.

As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with an 'old git' remonstrating, and it is not directly pointed at Catalan it would be the same to me for any team who is protected from relegation, it just does not equate to being a sporting contest.

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8 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Not sure which club gets paid or whether it's shared but you've confirmed my understanding that community clubs get paid when a player signs for a SL club

Yeah I’m sure that pathetic amount will just about cover the costs of washing the players kit over the years.

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6 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Not sure what your driving at, I'm telling you what I have seen and been told and stand by it.

What do you mean about retainers? Are you suggesting something dodgy? 

Yes I believe you are telling me what you have seen and heard, but you are only talking about academy kids, again I specifically mentioned kids younger than academy level, you are aware that pro clubs don't wait until kids reach academy age before approaching them, don't you?

Second part, nothing dodgy It is a way that a pro club can sign on a young kid, and release him back to his community club - where else could he continue his education - then they have first call on him if he fulfils his promise.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

 Firstly you said

"Every single player who has signed professional forms who came through an amateur club there is a payment to the community club"

 I specifically mentioned kids that are signed by pro club's which would be under academy age on retainers, you then you conclude with

"But as far as I'm aware it's all ages if they come from a community club"

That was why I said be careful of your wording, unless you know the answer exactly, "as far as I am aware" isn't really conclusive, is it?

 

Erm another serious concern for me regarding RL is the lack of transparent knowledge of certain agreements and deals.

This being an example. Who knows what payments are made? Even if the Fountain of Knowledges on here can produce Law 34 subsection 13, how do we know it is enacted or managed fairly.

I would add the Salary Cap and its numerous exemptions, "secret" England central contracts, RFL salaries, context for the Disciplinary, minimum ground standards, etc.

Coque up or conspiracy?

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1 minute ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Erm another serious concern for me regarding RL is the lack of transparent knowledge of certain agreements and deals.

This being an example. Who knows what payments are made? Even if the Fountain of Knowledges on here can produce Law 34 subsection 13, how do we know it is enacted or managed fairly.

I would add the Salary Cap and its numerous exemptions, "secret" England central contracts, RFL salaries, context for the Disciplinary, minimum ground standards, etc.

Coque up or conspiracy?

We don't, that is the simple answer.

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26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct me if I am wrong John, but wasn't Widnes the sacrificial lamb so to speak to allow Catalan the luxury of avoiding relegation?

Could you say with utmost certainty that if Widnes had been allowed to stay in SL that they would have not gone from strength to strength and once again become a major force in the game.

As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with an 'old git' remonstrating, and it is not directly pointed at Catalan it would be the same to me for any team who is protected from relegation, it just does not equate to being a sporting contest.

Widnes had had many glory days when they went down in order to facilitate Catalans entry. And their fans mostly took it with good grace. Widnes had more chance of coming back from the drop than a new club like Catalans -and I'd say the same if it was Bradford in the firing line. 

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9 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

Not only is the amount minimal but SL clubs will use whatever tactics they can to get around paying it.

That is why I think central contracts would solve this. However saying that I bet canny schemes will be produced. I remember a certain English full bakc having a barely risible ghost written phoned in weekly column in the MEN. It was in the most quite good (so apologies Sam if you did write it.). 

But I often wondered if he was duly rewarded and who and where it appeared on the cap, if at all. 

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3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I believe you are telling me what you have seen and heard, but you are only talking about academy kids, again I specifically mentioned kids younger than academy level, you are aware that pro clubs don't wait until kids reach academy age before approaching them, don't you?

Second part, nothing dodgy It is a way that a pro club can sign on a young kid, and release him back to his community club - where else could he continue his education - then they have first call on him if he fulfils his promise.

Still not sure I follow your reasoning.

The system is:

14-16 scholarships, these are amateur forms with a pro club, the player remains at their community club and plays for them regularly, training with the pro club weekly and playing about 6-8 games during the summer for the scholarship.

16-19 academy players sign for the pro club on semi pro forms and the pro club pay the community club a fee.

So where does this retainer and releasing back to the community club fit in? And what has this got to do with my point that the pro club pays a fee to the community club when they sign pro, which was my initial point? 

How does this "first call" system work? 

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1 hour ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Still not sure I follow your reasoning.

The system is:

14-16 scholarships, these are amateur forms with a pro club, the player remains at their community club and plays for them regularly, training with the pro club weekly and playing about 6-8 games during the summer for the scholarship.

16-19 academy players sign for the pro club on semi pro forms and the pro club pay the community club a fee.

So where does this retainer and releasing back to the community club fit in? And what has this got to do with my point that the pro club pays a fee to the community club when they sign pro, which was my initial point? 

How does this "first call" system work? 

This may be true for the age groups mentioned, but what about players who sign pro from the community game at 20 or above? Your argument falls down there.  There is an agreed compensation package but as mentioned by someone else previously, it is only if the player plays a certain amount of games in the main. Also if a player then rejoins the community game, and then at a later date signs for another pro club, no compensation involved.

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3 hours ago, Styx said:

This may be true for the age groups mentioned, but what about players who sign pro from the community game at 20 or above? Your argument falls down there.  There is an agreed compensation package but as mentioned by someone else previously, it is only if the player plays a certain amount of games in the main. Also if a player then rejoins the community game, and then at a later date signs for another pro club, no compensation involved.

I wasn't making an argument, was simply saying community clubs get compensated by pro clubs when a player signs.

You've set out some circumstances I'm less aware of, so agree there may be flaws in this system. I don't believe it is linked to games, it's simply if a player signs, this was my direct experience and what I was told.  

So I am happy to accept there may be circumstances such as 20+ when it doesn't happen, others may know more than me about the details, happy for people to share those insights so we all learn and know the exact details. There was a reply about pre academy though and paying players, I'm less convinced about this argument but again happy to be proved wrong. 

My point stands about the scholarship to academy players which make up the majority IME though. Yes not much but teams do get money. But happy to learn from others who know more 👍

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On 29/09/2021 at 22:37, The Blues Ox said:

So with no fear of relegation what is Salford, Wakefield, and Huddersfield's excuse this season for been so poor?

I wouldn't say any team needs an "excuse" although there are always factors in anything.

For Huddersfield, we haven't been able to put out anything like our strongest side all year, we've often found ourselves 10+ first team regulars short, due to injuries, suspension, covid issues, we haven't managed to get any consistency within the playing group at all, our spine has been decimated for most of the season, our first choice 1,6,7,9 all out for considerable lengths of time .

(ironically, as myself and other posters have alluded to during the course of the season, Huddersfield's opponent always seem to be labelled "depleted" but never the Giants, why is that?)

IW stated on a zoom call with us the other week that there were factors and factions within the squad that he wasn't aware of until the season started, he mentioned there was resistance from some players to his "processes and methods" he also said that those players have already been moved on, no guesses who he was referring to I'm sure.

I don't think any team would find themselves competing consistently with all that happening?

But, here's the thing, the positive thing to come out of it for me, is that we seem to now have a TEAM, (Watson also alluded to having too many individuals within the group that was posing challenges) rather than a bunch of individuals, who seemingly want to play for the shirt, the badge, the fans and for Ken, the fact that a lot of this team is also built around and contains a majority of young, homegrown/British talent as well as the triangle of -Jerry-Leroy-Bruno is more exciting than not challenging for trophies this year.

I am happy where we ended up in 2021 if our future is brighter.

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1 hour ago, meast said:

I wouldn't say any team needs an "excuse" although there are always factors in anything.

 

Not sure how to word this without it sounding insulting but I didn't want to make it a dig at those teams but more a point about what TS has said. Its ok using one example of Hull KR about playing without the fear of relegation helped them but the facts are that there will always have to be teams that finish near the bottom of the table and on numerous occasions it has been similar teams over recent history when there were no fear of relegation but despite that there has been little improvement. Wakey are the obvious example because since relegation got brought back in some of the others have suffered the inevitable fate. As it is Wakey and Salford look to have it all on next season to stay in the division and given the cycle that they are in even without promotion and relegation they would be in the cycle for at least 3 or 4 years you would expect.

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2 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Not sure how to word this without it sounding insulting but I didn't want to make it a dig at those teams but more a point about what TS has said. Its ok using one example of Hull KR about playing without the fear of relegation helped them but the facts are that there will always have to be teams that finish near the bottom of the table and on numerous occasions it has been similar teams over recent history when there were no fear of relegation but despite that there has been little improvement. Wakey are the obvious example because since relegation got brought back in some of the others have suffered the inevitable fate. As it is Wakey and Salford look to have it all on next season to stay in the division and given the cycle that they are in even without promotion and relegation they would be in the cycle for at least 3 or 4 years you would expect.

And you could also add Tony Smith's own club at the time Huddersfield who didn't improve until p&r was reintroduced

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