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Just now, Tommygilf said:

I've seen various numbers thrown about for minimums/maximums.

But as I can see has already been pointed out, bigger clubs playing away would be the logical choice no?

Logical for the bigger club as they can promote the game by getting fans to watch locally and save money by not going. So as a fan of the biggest club in the pond that would be brilliant for my club, then you get a smaller club dependent on a chunk of away fans who could lose £100k pa min - I suppose I could take the luvv em I am all right approach as written in the SL manual 

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1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

The counter to that is that clubs have been playing on Thursdays for long enough now to have been able to work out how to reach those audiences that are looking for something to do on a weeknight, in the same way that the cinema industry turned Wednesday nights form being it's worst-performing day of the week to it's second most-successful. 

There are people out there who are looking for some sort of amusement on weeknights - people without kids to get up for school in the morning, the people who don't see a 10:00pm finish as a 'late night' on a school night, people who'd otherwise be finding something else to do who could be tempted into an RL fix. 

In understand that Thursday nights aren't great for fans that travel, but weeknights are common in sports with much longer travel distances than RL. The sport has had them for long enough now for it to become a much weaker excuse than it once was.  

Whilst I'm in general agreement with you, there is more than enough evidence that whilst good crowds can be attracted, they are affected by weeknight fixtures. I've been to Champions League games (big ones) where there are empty seats that are a challenge to fill in midweek. 

I think it is sometimes the case that there just isn't a replacement audience - particularly when a decent proportion of your sales are on kids which Thursday decimates.

The likes of football can do this because quite simply they have mass numbers, often supply exceeds demand, but not too many sports exceed the likes of a Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire crowd on a Thursday night. 

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7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Whilst I'm in general agreement with you, there is more than enough evidence that whilst good crowds can be attracted, they are affected by weeknight fixtures. I've been to Champions League games (big ones) where there are empty seats that are a challenge to fill in midweek. 

I think it is sometimes the case that there just isn't a replacement audience - particularly when a decent proportion of your sales are on kids which Thursday decimates.

The likes of football can do this because quite simply they have mass numbers, often supply exceeds demand, but not too many sports exceed the likes of a Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire crowd on a Thursday night. 

Indeed, I've got a friend who has been to see Spurs several times in the past few years. Each time, it's a midweek Champions League game. Outwardly, the biggest fixtures they have but not necessarily the easiest to shift. The matches are usually sold out or close to sold out by kick off time but clearly not a straightforward sell. Meanwhile, he's never been able, as he's only really casually interested and doesn't put himself in the front of the queue, to get to a Premier League game on the weekend.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Whilst I'm in general agreement with you, there is more than enough evidence that whilst good crowds can be attracted, they are affected by weeknight fixtures. I've been to Champions League games (big ones) where there are empty seats that are a challenge to fill in midweek. 

I think it is sometimes the case that there just isn't a replacement audience - particularly when a decent proportion of your sales are on kids which Thursday decimates.

The likes of football can do this because quite simply they have mass numbers, often supply exceeds demand, but not too many sports exceed the likes of a Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire crowd on a Thursday night. 

I agree that you can't necessarily "football can do it, so can we" and I equally agree that weeknights pose a challenge, but how many times - and in how many contexts - do we say that "RL needs to broaden beyond the same people"? This is another one of those times and contexts.

If we're going to take the broadcaster cash that comes with strings that we play on weeknights, then the sport has options - either accept that the crowds will be lower and quit complaining about it, or find ways to make it work. I don't think there is any town in RL land where there aren't people looking for some sort of entertainment on a Thursday night - the question is whether RL clubs are finding ways to offer what those people want. 

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3 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I agree that you can't necessarily "football can do it, so can we" and I equally agree that weeknights pose a challenge, but how many times - and in how many contexts - do we say that "RL needs to broaden beyond the same people"? This is another one of those times and contexts.

If we're going to take the broadcaster cash that comes with strings that we play on weeknights, then the sport has options - either accept that the crowds will be lower and quit complaining about it, or find ways to make it work. I don't think there is any town in RL land where there aren't people looking for some sort of entertainment on a Thursday night - the question is whether RL clubs are finding ways to offer what those people want. 

We should not be taking this deal as it stands is the view of the people paying to watch championship clubs on this and other forums - lets see this vote of the 14 clubs in the Championship 2022

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On 06/10/2021 at 14:51, sweaty craiq said:

If I ran a champ club my first call to fans would be to not buy the subscription

Thankfully you don't.

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Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Not really in the UK - whether you're talking entertainment on the TV or sport to attend.

So you`re telling me a match featuring a local team, early in the evening, with family friendly sections, perhaps food stalls, or a hot-dog or a bucket of chips with your ticket so Mum doesn`t have to cook with a bit of pre-match and half time entertainment i.e a bit of a carnival atmosphere and especially if everyone knows that it is going to be televised and not some half-arsed tv production, but done properly -  you wouldn`t be able to market one or two of these games a season per club. Surely it`s worth a try.

Maybe not to a bunch of old farts on an internet forum, but aimed at young people, especially families and perhaps the curious.

Edited by The Rocket
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Is it only in RL that fans will queue up offering reasons why something that hasn't yet started will be a disaster/is a terrible idea whilst also bewailing the inability of the RFL to promote the game?

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Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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3 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

So you`re telling me a match featuring a local team, early in the evening, with family friendly sections, perhaps food stalls, or a hot-dog or a bucket of chips with your ticket so Mum doesn`t have to cook with a bit of pre-match and half time entertainment i.e a bit of a carnival atmosphere and especially if everyone knows that it is going to be televised and not some half-arsed tv production, but done properly -  you wouldn`t be able to market one or two of these games a season per club. Surely it`s worth a try.

Maybe not to a bunch of old farts on an internet forum, but aimed at young people, especially families and perhaps the curious.

That's a different question.

Could that be done? Sure.

Is Monday evening in the UK a big ticket evening? No. It's not and never has been.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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3 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Is it only in RL that fans will queue up offering reasons why something that hasn't yet started will be a disaster/is a terrible idea whilst also bewailing the inability of the RFL to promote the game?

No, it's not.

I'd expect fans of all sports to be critical of a deal that is unequal in how the money will be distributed, opaque on the requirements placed on the game, offers minimal scope for visibility, and could very easily wind up costing more than it brings in.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 minute ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I agree that you can't necessarily "football can do it, so can we" and I equally agree that weeknights pose a challenge, but how many times - and in how many contexts - do we say that "RL needs to broaden beyond the same people"? This is another one of those times and contexts.

If we're going to take the broadcaster cash that comes with strings that we play on weeknights, then the sport has options - either accept that the crowds will be lower and quit complaining about it, or find ways to make it work. I don't think there is any town in RL land where there aren't people looking for some sort of entertainment on a Thursday night - the question is whether RL clubs are finding ways to offer what those people want. 

I think the sport has done exactly what you say above. They accepted the trade off of large pots of money meaning the move to Thursday can be justified (accepting that we should still be doing everything we can to sell every seat) - my reason for bringing it up here is as the money has dropped we have found ourselves in this position by default. I think we really need a value by slot that we should be selling on. We are back to money of around 10 years ago (not taking inflation into account) yet we are now having to stage big derbies on a Thursday night instead of the Friday night or Saturday evening.

I think this is just an example of muddled strategy. If you are staging games on Thursday and Friday nights - you may as well go all in for the darts-type crowds - but we appear to persist with this family game point, which doesn't really work with the scheduling we have. I believe this has had an impact on crowds over the last decade or so. 

A quick scan to 10 years ago shows that we used to stage 7 games a week - usually 3 on a Friday, 1 on Saturday and 3 on Sunday. 

In 2001 - 66% of games were on Sat/Sun

In 2011 - 56% of games were on Sat/Sun

In 2019 - 41% of games were on Sat/Sun

This is all fine, as long as we have moved with the changes and accepted that targeting young kids with cheap tickets and getting into schools as marketing ploys will only go so far if you are then staging your events to finish at 10pm.

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9 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

So you`re telling me a match featuring a local team, early in the evening, with family friendly sections, perhaps food stalls, or a hot-dog or a bucket of chips with your ticket so Mum doesn`t have to cook with a bit of pre-match and half time entertainment i.e a bit of a carnival atmosphere and especially if everyone knows that it is going to be televised and not some half-arsed tv production, but done properly -  you wouldn`t be able to market one or two of these games a season per club. Surely it`s worth a try.

Maybe not to a bunch of old farts on an internet forum, but aimed at young people, especially families and perhaps the curious.

Whilst I'm not as down on this deal as many others here, I think you are portraying a rather romanticised view of this. These games are likely to finish just before 10pm on a Monday night with the majority of the season in term-time.

In reality, your target audience on a Monday night is older blokes who may get out and have a Monday pint.  

We can't present 'family carnival style events' on Monday nights like this. There is a reason carnivals aren't on Monday nights.

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5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Is Monday evening in the UK a big ticket evening? No. It's not and never has been.

 

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

No, it's not.

I'd expect fans of all sports to be critical of a deal that is unequal in how the money will be distributed, opaque on the requirements placed on the game, offers minimal scope for visibility, and could very easily wind up costing more than it brings in.

So it really becomes a chicken or the egg type situation. If you can make it an event in each town/city it is held every week and get your 5 or 6000 down and it looks great on TV and everyone has a great evening then although it is probably unlikely to get too many non-League fans signing up it certainly might get more League fans who want to see a bit of good quality League - the Championship already has a reputation for being a more open entertaining brand of League - on  monday night. But certainly the first step would be getting the crowd in and the TV viewers might follow after that.

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Whilst I'm not as down on this deal as many others here, I think you are portraying a rather romanticised view of this. These games are likely to finish just before 10pm on a Monday night with the majority of the season in term-time.

In reality, your target audience on a Monday night is older blokes who may get out and have a Monday pint.  

We can't present 'family carnival style events' on Monday nights like this. There is a reason carnivals aren't on Monday nights.

A free pint or soft drink with every Monday night ticket isn’t a bad idea 

Edited by Sir Kevin Sinfield
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1 minute ago, The Rocket said:

 

So it really becomes a chicken or the egg type situation. If you can make it an event in each town/city it is held every week and get your 5 or 6000 down and it looks great on TV and everyone has a great evening then although it is probably unlikely to get too many non-League fans signing up it certainly might get more League fans who want to see a bit of good quality League - the Championship already has a reputation for being a more open entertaining brand of League - on  monday night. But certainly the first step would be getting the crowd in and the TV viewers might follow after that.

Tell me your marketing strategy for this scenario:

Its monday 1st Feb and whitehaven v York has been selected for tv, its pitch black at 6pm and the weather is -3C.

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19 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Is it only in RL that fans will queue up offering reasons why something that hasn't yet started will be a disaster/is a terrible idea whilst also bewailing the inability of the RFL to promote the game?

Yes only us 🙂

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

These games are likely to finish just before 10pm on a Monday night with the majority of the season in term-time.

Surely if it kicked off at 7pm it would all be wrapped up by 9, kids in bed by 10. And it only has to be once or twice a year per club wouldn`t it, so it`s an event.

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4 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Tell me your marketing strategy for this scenario:

Its monday 1st Feb and whitehaven v York has been selected for tv, its pitch black at 6pm and the weather is -3C.

I`m not going to argue with that, that would be a hard sell. But when do the days start getting longer in your part of the world, April, May and then pretty well right through to the end of the comp.

All I`m going off is I look at the long evenings here at this time of year and I`d think if the local team had a game on proper TV and it was marketed right in our town of about 20 000 they`d get a decent crowd down there to make it look like a spectacle. And as I keep saying it ain`t every week, just a couple of times a year - an event.

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16 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I`m not going to argue with that, that would be a hard sell. But when do the days start getting longer in your part of the world, April, May and then pretty well right through to the end of the comp.

All I`m going off is I look at the long evenings here at this time of year and I`d think if the local team had a game on proper TV and it was marketed right in our town of about 20 000 they`d get a decent crowd down there to make it look like a spectacle. And as I keep saying it ain`t every week, just a couple of times a year - an event.

You have a decent chance May onwards and in school holidays, so about 8 per annum. At present a club could have 5 games at home for no income and be forced to sell cheap tickets

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55 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Whilst I'm not as down on this deal as many others here, I think you are portraying a rather romanticised view of this. These games are likely to finish just before 10pm on a Monday night with the majority of the season in term-time.

In reality, your target audience on a Monday night is older blokes who may get out and have a Monday pint.  

We can't present 'family carnival style events' on Monday nights like this. There is a reason carnivals aren't on Monday nights.

Especially on a freezing, wet Monday night in February and March.....

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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42 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Surely if it kicked off at 7pm it would all be wrapped up by 9, kids in bed by 10. And it only has to be once or twice a year per club wouldn`t it, so it`s an event.

Apologies I've missed the 7pm kick off?

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It always makes me laugh when people talk about marketing in reference to the Championship and how clubs should market the games better.

It may be relevant to the bigger places like Newcastle and Sheffield but do people not think that in places like Featherstone, Whitehaven, Dewsbury, even Leigh, that the locals aren't fully aware they they have a team and where and when they play ? If they wanted to watch RL they'd be doing it already.

The only marketing that is effective at that level is a winning team, the bandwagon effect. Look at the crowds both Barrow and Workington pulled in L1 this year as an example. But I guarantee you that should either team be really struggling next season then crowds will be less than half what they were getting this year. The fairweather fans won't go and pay to watch a losing team no matter how many fireworks you set off.

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I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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