Wolves sign Josh McGuire

[LeeF]

2 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:

I know this is mainly about Rugby Union , but:

 - I played my last game over 20 years ago, having played open-age rugbyleague and union for over 25 years and there was never much sledging other than jeering in union when your scrum got shoved backwards. No one got sneered at for dropping a pass or missing a tackle. Some teams sang unpleasant victory chants in the dressing room after a win; but none of my teams did and I would have refused to take join in.

 - In the UK, the Australian cricket team brought widespread publicity to the use of sledging as a tactic in the Ian Chappell era.

 - It seems that  sneering and congratulating mistakes are now commonplace  mind-game tactics in RL.

- When sledging and derogatory comments are regarded as part of the game, it's hard to criticise a player who goes to far in the heat of the moment.

- The answer is to penalise it altogether in Rugby League and make us the "clean game".

Now that we are a summer sport you would have expected the sledging to have stopped 

Joking aside your last point is spot on. Zero tolerance is the best way and if McGuire has said what some are reporting or inferring then he need banning for a very long time

[Chris22]

In some ways, a rugby league field is very different to a regular workplace. You wouldn't be able to tackle someone in any other workplace but you can in rugby, because we're a contact sport.

In other ways, a rugby league club is the same as other workplaces. If you work in an office environment, for example, if you used a discriminatory term or behaviour, you would be punished for it. That is the same for sports.

You can argue whether you think that is right or wrong but that is the position. So even if you want to say something discriminatory, the majority are sensible enough not to.

We know from McGuire's last ban that he denied using a discriminatory term (contrary to what was said earlier in this thread) and that the disciplinary panel, in their own words, concluded that he "was not telling the truth" when he denied it (link).

At this point, nobody with certainty knows the reported language used on this occasion. If guilty, McGuire is foolish at best not to have learned from his errors.

[Just Browny]

I have no problem with McGuire's ban and want to see his contract terminated if he is guilty of this latest charge. Indefensibly stupid.

However I just don't see that his pre-season offence is the worst offence committed in SL so far in 2023, when you consider some of the shocking tackles we have seen red cards for (including Dudson's at Catalans, in case anyone thinks I am seeing this from a club perspective).

Edited June 6, 2023 by Just Browny

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I have no problem with McGuire's ban and want to see his contract terminated if he is guilty of this latest charge. Indefensibly stupid.

However I just don't see that his pre-season offence is the worst offence committed in SL so far in 2023, when you consider some of the shocking tackles we have seen red cards for (including Dudson's at Catalans, in case anyone thinks I am seeing this from a club perspective).

The problem is with these offences are that they are incurring reputational damage for not just McGuire, but Warrington, Super League and Rugby League as a whole. Warrington can take their own punishment, but its down to the disciplinary procedures to work out the appropriate measures on behalf of the league and game as a whole.

They are extraordinary in that sense, and should be dealt with as such. 

[Just Browny]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The problem is with these offences are that they are incurring reputational damage for not just McGuire, but Warrington, Super League and Rugby League as a whole. Warrington can take their own punishment, but its down to the disciplinary procedures to work out the appropriate measures on behalf of the league and game as a whole.

They are extraordinary in that sense, and should be dealt with as such. 

Yes. And I'd still argue that Konrad Hurrell, Morgan Knowles or Gil Dudson smashing someone in the head live on telly is extremely bad reputationally for the sport, especially for any parents (I'm one) who wants their kids to play the game but wants them to do so safely.

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Yes. And I'd still argue that Konrad Hurrell, Morgan Knowles or Gil Dudson smashing someone in the head live on telly is extremely bad reputationally for the sport, especially for any parents (I'm one) who wants their kids to play the game but wants them to do so safely.

It is bad, but they are punished accordingly both in the game and afterwards. It is also accepted as part of the risks of the game that occasionally players will get tackles etc wrong. Does a player knocking himself out because of poor head positioning when making a tackle cause you the same issues? There does come a point where all risks are mitigated to the best possible way but can't be removed any further.

By contrast, there is a clear sensitivity and zero tolerance policy here. The sport has more to gain by coming down hard on this sort of behaviour, and doing so publicly, than not doing so. I'm happy with that, its unacceptable, unnecessary and entirely avoidable. There's a whole litany of insults that are perfectly acceptable, if not very nice, for McGuire to go for, yet he keeps going down this avenue instead. 

[RP London]

2 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

As I was not personally viewing the report I don't know,as with most people I read reports from various sources, they may or may not be accurate.As for like football players do we as a sport are not at that level but slowly we are going in that direction.

yeah i get all that but I don't see it as the same at all.. there is a difference running up to the ref disagreeing with  the interpretation of an incident, there is an entirely different one of going up to the ref and saying "sir he called me an xyz".. or "sir, look he bit me".. I don't have an issue with the last bit.. but rolling around on the floor feigning injury or getting in his face because you don't agree are totally wrong. I would hope stamping out the latter does not mean the loss of the former as I would say that is a more dangerous route to go down IMHO. 

[RP London]

54 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I have no problem with McGuire's ban and want to see his contract terminated if he is guilty of this latest charge. Indefensibly stupid.

However I just don't see that his pre-season offence is the worst offence committed in SL so far in 2023, when you consider some of the shocking tackles we have seen red cards for (including Dudson's at Catalans, in case anyone thinks I am seeing this from a club perspective).

but the same could be said for pushing a referee.. hardly life threatening but brings with it a higher level of ban.... its because of what you think is acceptable as part of the game and what is just unacceptable thuggery. Same with a blatant punch in the chops rather than a head high tackle.. i would expect blatant flagrant punch to the face to carry a harder punishment than a mistaken head high tackle (although this being the RFL I await being shown that the RFL rules say otherwise!)

[idrewthehaggis]

6 hours ago, RP London said:

I know this is a controversial stand point but he could just, you know, stop saying them.. thats the easiest way to stop the bans. 

Hefty bans are there to just stop behaviour that is easy to stop, same with racist stuff..

Physical violence should be treated more harshly I agree but that doesnt mean these bans are wrong..

Look at all the LDRL rugby that was going on over the weekend on the pitch, look at the fun and enjoyment they are having playing the game on the main pitch and watching it inbetween... why should they be made to feel less welcome just become some utter gob**** thinks its ok to use their disability as an insult to someone else?

A sensible retort.

Simple.

Just keep your gob shut.

Don't be a bigot.

Don't dump on your team mates and the supporters.

When I played, you couldn't back chat the ref, purposely swear or even clench yer fist without risking a telling off or more.

Whilst I agree sledging, grubs and thuggery needs to be A1 punished,  I have little sympathy for any player who uses languages that could result in a ban. It's a nonsense breach. And repugnant. 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by idrewthehaggis

[RP London]

1 hour ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

It probably doesn't pay to have a non woke opinion otherwise you are just ignorant and idiotic.

On Warrington we have a problem with all aspects of discipline,the amount of games missed by player's is mounting, only saints are anywhere close.

its funny how "woke" is thrown into conversations like this..

I never thought of myself as woke but I seem to end up on the "woke" side of arguments because I am just generally on the side of if it might hurt someone, maybe just don't do it if there is an alternative.. If thats what Woke is then I'm glad I'm woke and I'll wear that badge with honour, you can use it as an insult but it really really isnt.

[StandOffHalf]

Jeez, the game HAS gone pretty soft judging by the drift of this thread - and plenty seem to be on board.

McGuire must be a little bemused at the scolding response and wondering whether SL is up his alley.

[Just Browny]

49 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

It is bad, but they are punished accordingly both in the game and afterwards. It is also accepted as part of the risks of the game that occasionally players will get tackles etc wrong. Does a player knocking himself out because of poor head positioning when making a tackle cause you the same issues? There does come a point where all risks are mitigated to the best possible way but can't be removed any further.

By contrast, there is a clear sensitivity and zero tolerance policy here. The sport has more to gain by coming down hard on this sort of behaviour, and doing so publicly, than not doing so. I'm happy with that, its unacceptable, unnecessary and entirely avoidable. There's a whole litany of insults that are perfectly acceptable, if not very nice, for McGuire to go for, yet he keeps going down this avenue instead. 

OK cool. Again not sure how many times I can say I have no problems with the McGuire ban. I think it's odd to assume all bad tackles are accidents.

[RP London]

13 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Jeez, the game HAS gone pretty soft judging by the drift of this thread - and plenty seem to be on board.

McGuire must be a little bemused at the scolding response and wondering whether SL is up his alley.

why has the game gone soft? hes allowed to clatter him as hard as he wants (within the rules)... but he isnt allowed to use pejorative language towards a person that can make a vulnerable group of people who we are trying to encourage to be part of the game feel unwelcome and as if they are actually sub human and that something they cannot help, something that actually helps to make them who they are can be used as an insult.. be that their mental state, the physical ability, their race, their gender or their sexuality... that just seems eminently sensible to me and hasnt changed at all the way you actually play the game, certainly not the toughness of the game.. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by RP London

[StandOffHalf]

8 minutes ago, RP London said:

why has the game gone soft? hes allowed to clatter him as hard as he wants (within the rules)... but he isnt allowed to use pejorative language towards a person that can make a vulnerable group of people who we are trying to encourage to be part of the game feel unwelcome and as if they are actually sub human and that something they cannot help, something that actually helps to make them who they are can be used as an insult.. be that their mental state, the physical ability, their race, their gender or their sexuality... that just seems eminently sensible to me and hasnt changed at all the way you actually play the game, certainly not the toughness of the game.. 

One word: sanitised

[RP London]

Just now, StandOffHalf said:

One word: sanitised

Its not sanitised its being a grown up... get on and play the game you can insult people, gob off and wind them up without using these types of words (I've always managed it!).. if you think thats not true and you really want people/think its ok for people to use those types of words then sorry but that says more about you than me

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, StandOffHalf said:

Jeez, the game HAS gone pretty soft judging by the drift of this thread - and plenty seem to be on board.

McGuire must be a little bemused at the scolding response and wondering whether SL is up his alley.

This isn’t the game gone pretty soft, if reprted to the police it could be considered a public order offence with an aggravating factor of disability hate crime (the 1st offence in preseason, I'm not actually sure what he has said here). The Public Order Act 1986, amended in 1994, contains the offences likely to be charged under, though that in itself is based on the POA 1936 and common law dating much further back. 

I'm not sure Mrs Thatcher's government, Mr Major's or indeed Stanley Baldwin's were particularly "soft".

[ELBOWSEYE]

35 minutes ago, RP London said:

its funny how "woke" is thrown into conversations like this..

I never thought of myself as woke but I seem to end up on the "woke" side of arguments because I am just generally on the side of if it might hurt someone, maybe just don't do it if there is an alternative.. If thats what Woke is then I'm glad I'm woke and I'll wear that badge with honour, you can use it as an insult but it really really isnt.

It's no badge of honour, I don't and repeat don't abuse other people no matter what even opposition players or people who push everyone else to believe their views. On here certain posters have called me ignorant and an idiot, I won't even post the critical emojis, I prefer to explain my opinion rather than insult.

[Tommygilf]

16 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

OK cool. Again not sure how many times I can say I have no problems with the McGuire ban. I think it's odd to assume all bad tackles are accidents.

I'm not assuming all bad tackles are accidents.

You've said on this thread you don't see that McGuire's preseason offence is the worst offence committed in SL so far. That in itself belies a misunderstanding of what he is being punished for and why. Its not just the incident, its the repercussions to the wider league and sport.

[RP London]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

This isn’t the game gone pretty soft, if reprted to the police it could be considered a public order offence with an aggravating factor of disability hate crime (the 1st offence in preseason, I'm not actually sure what he has said here). The Public Order Act 1986, amended in 1994, contains the offences likely to be charged under, though that in itself is based on the POA 1936 and common law dating much further back. 

I'm not sure Mrs Thatcher's government, Mr Major's or indeed Stanley Baldwin's were particularly "soft".

Baldwin brought in pub licensing didn't he??. soft as.. 

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Wolford6 said:

I know this is mainly about Rugby Union , but:

 - I played my last game over 20 years ago, having played open-age rugbyleague and union for over 25 years and there was never much sledging other than jeering in union when your scrum got shoved backwards. No one got sneered at for dropping a pass or missing a tackle. Some teams sang unpleasant victory chants in the dressing room after a win; but none of my teams did and I would have refused to take join in.

 - In the UK, the Australian cricket team brought widespread publicity to the use of sledging as a tactic in the Ian Chappell era.

 - It seems that  sneering and congratulating mistakes are now commonplace  mind-game tactics in RL.

- When sledging and derogatory comments are regarded as part of the game, it's hard to criticise a player who goes to far in the heat of the moment.

- The answer is to penalise it altogether in Rugby League and make us the "clean game".

Agree , that's why patting someone on the head should be deemed a punch , red card , get off 

[RP London]

10 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

It's no badge of honour, I don't and repeat don't abuse other people no matter what even opposition players or people who push everyone else to believe their views. On here certain posters have called me ignorant and an idiot, I won't even post the critical emojis, I prefer to explain my opinion rather than insult.

Think you'll find I'll wear the badge how i feel fit.. and if woke is how it gets used on here then its a very honourable thing to be.

you may not do it yourself but you seem to have no issue with others that do... that is how I'm reading it.. am I wrong (happy to be)? and if so how?

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

Baldwin brought in pub licensing didn't he??. soft as.. 

I always thought "the bomber will always get through" was woke tosh.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Just Browny said:

Yes. And I'd still argue that Konrad Hurrell, Morgan Knowles or Gil Dudson smashing someone in the head live on telly is extremely bad reputationally for the sport, especially for any parents (I'm one) who wants their kids to play the game but wants them to do so safely.

I think the RFL are far too lenient on some of the offences we see nowadays, I have made that point consistently, but I broadly think we have got it right on banning for slurs like this. 

Dudson's punch was bad, and he got 5 matches - a really serious ban, so we do punish these instances of foul play, but I wholly support huge bans for things like racism, homophobia, sexism, disability slurs etc. 

It could be argued it's a little like drugs or betting bans - they may seem excessive for what the person has actually done, but I think it is fine that they are treated on a different level.

[RP London]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

I always thought "the bomber will always get through" was woke tosh.

just means you're not trying hard enough to stop it... 

[ELBOWSEYE]

10 minutes ago, RP London said:

Think you'll find I'll wear the badge how i feel fit.. and if woke is how it gets used on here then its a very honourable thing to be.

you may not do it yourself but you seem to have no issue with others that do... that is how I'm reading it.. am I wrong (happy to be)? and if so how?

I have just read my posts and my view was how I understand it was reported, never said I have no problems with abuse, I have a problem with the level of bans compared to serious foul play.

And woke is to prevent open debate which should not result in people being labelled or abused for expressing an opinion on a topic.