England Squad

[Jonty58]

21 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I am certainly going into the World Cup with my eyes wide open and we are behind Australia and New Zealand in the favourites stakes and probably only edge Tonga and Samoa with home advantage.

But I am not as pessimistic as you about the talent we have.  It is frustrating that Farnworth and Newman have not played as their teams end the regular season but we need to monitor their fitness closely as I think they are both exceptional talents.  Add in Makinson and Young on the wings and Welsby as a player who can break any game open and it is as athletic and talented a backline as we will have had for a long long time - certainly ahead of the team we had in the last World Cup Final.

I also don't think that Tom Burgess, Oledski, Thompson and Walmsley give nothing away to the SH teams in the middle and Radley and Knowles are two quality 13's.  We have choices on the edge and even if we go with the usual suspects of Bateman and Whitehead, they have not let us down internationally.

As I say, the spine is the key for me.  I would say an absolute no to Hastings.  He has been played at 13 for Wests before he got injured and in that position he isn't a patch on the two mentioned previously.

I expect Wane to go with Williams and Lomax in the halves and Tomkins at 1.

I hope things go well but when you have ageing or out of form players in the team and as you say an uncertain quality in the Spine I think it will be a big task to make the semis or finals.

I think it will be a great Tournament and an England win would be good for the game, I am just not confident that we have better players than the opposition.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Jonty58

[Jonty58]

21 hours ago, SydneyRoosters said:

Why are English fans so unoptimistic about there chances at the World Cup. As an Aussie I believe England have a massive chance at the winning the whole thing, They have multiple world class players and have a complete squad without any weaknesses unlike most pacific island nations. If you think about it all England have to do to make the final is to beat teams that they have never lost too before and boom you’re in, Not to mention the enormous home advantage they have.

(I can already smell angry replies to this, English rugby league fans seem to be the only set of fans in the world that get mad when you say there team is going to do well.)

Just being realistic about the chances of success.

There has been a big drop off in English imports to the NRL in recent times probably not helped by players going home early (Bateman, Williams and others) as is seen by Aussies going home in our game.

The Bookies are not wrong often.

Country	Odds
Australia	$1.28
New Zealand	$7.00
England	$9.00
Tonga	$13.00
Samoa	$51.00
Fiji	$51.00

 

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, WN83 said:

The whole Bateman form thing is massively overplayed. He didn’t blow teams away here before his NRL stint and he still doesn’t now because that’s not his game. When the big games come round he’s your man. In the Derby a couple of weeks back he was superb, at Magic again he was superb and he was outstanding in the cup final. He made in excess of 35 tackles in all three of those games and ran between 125-155 metres in each. In the Magic game he broke a rib in the first few mins and played the full 80, made the most metres of any forward on the field and scored a try. In the All Stars game he was probably our best player as well. Is motivation an issue some weeks in lesser games? Possibly but there’s nobody I’d rather have in the side when the big ones come around. 

Quote those stats all you wish, but he ain't playing as well as some of his contemporaries.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[DavidM]

10 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

I am just not confident that we have better players than the opposition.

Maybe , but there isn’t always a simple parallel between that and winning competitions and tournaments 

[Jonty58]

1 minute ago, DavidM said:

Maybe , but there isn’t always a simple parallel between that and winning competitions and tournaments 

No, that is true but how many competitions have we won in recent times?

If you picked a World team of 17, who would England have in that team? Please don't say James Roby.

[DavidM]

3 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

No, that is true but how many competitions have we won in recent times?

If you picked a World team of 17, who would England have in that team? Please don't say James Roby.

We haven’t won any but that doesn’t mean you can’t  , and we may not win this one . But we’ve got to finals and then it’s all on the day . I don’t see the point of picking a world team we won’t be playing the rest of the world . We’ll be playing 17 on 17 on home soil , and we have the capability to match up in a tournament that’s as open as I can remember . Those odds show England third favourites , ahead of Tonga but some think they can win it ?

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

No, that is true but how many competitions have we won in recent times?

If you picked a World team of 17, who would England have in that team? Please don't say James Roby.

While there may be no England standouts no world team would be loaded by players from 1 country these days.

At the end of the day you can only have a match day squad of 17 players and it's about getting a competitive 17 that can gel and play well as a team. That doesn't need players walking on to a world team. I don't think anyone is under any illusions about the England strengths and weaknesses but there is no reason a competitive team can't be picked that can have a fighting chance, particularly on home soil.

[SydneyRoosters]

23 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

Just being realistic about the chances of success.

There has been a big drop off in English imports to the NRL in recent times probably not helped by players going home early (Bateman, Williams and others) as is seen by Aussies going home in our game.

The Bookies are not wrong often.

Country	Odds
Australia	$1.28
New Zealand	$7.00
England	$9.00
Tonga	$13.00
Samoa	$51.00
Fiji	$51.00

 

England were literally One ankle tap away from winning the last World Cup. The Team they have is Very strong I think the home fan advantage may just be the tipping point for them in big games.

[UTK]

40 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

Just being realistic about the chances of success.

There has been a big drop off in English imports to the NRL in recent times probably not helped by players going home early (Bateman, Williams and others) as is seen by Aussies going home in our game.

The Bookies are not wrong often.

Country	Odds
Australia	$1.28
New Zealand	$7.00
England	$9.00
Tonga	$13.00
Samoa	$51.00
Fiji	$51.00

 

Plenty of value in NZ at $7 IMO.

[DI Keith Fowler]

45 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

The Bookies are not wrong often.

Country	Odds
Australia	$1.28
New Zealand	$7.00
England	$9.00
Tonga	$13.00
Samoa	$51.00
Fiji	$51.00

 

They say that but if England get to the final against Australia it's 50:50. That's how it works, either England win or they lose, it's 50:50. Law of maths. 

[Dunbar]

21 minutes ago, SydneyRoosters said:

England were literally One ankle tap away from winning the last World Cup. The Team they have is Very strong I think the home fan advantage may just be the tipping point for them in big games.

While I love the sentiment, I think the word literally is a stretch here.

England were 6-0 down when that ankle tap happened and so we were literally an ankle tap from scoring a try which, if converted, would have tied the game at 6-6.  That is not the same as winning.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

While I love the sentiment, I think the word literally is a stretch here.

England were 6-0 down when that ankle tap happened and so we were literally an ankle tap from scoring a try which, if converted, would have tied the game at 6-6.  That is not the same as winning.

Yes, I see this get quoted a lot but it's not really true. I'm also sure that Australia could point to similar incidents where they almost scored. At the end of the day it counts for nothing.

[SydneyRoosters]

Most people don’t know this but Max King (Bulldogs Prop) Was born in Huddersfield and lived there for the first 8 years of his live whilst his dad for was playing for them. He’s been in terrific form recently and should be considered the England squad if he wants to play for them.

Edited September 8, 2022 by SydneyRoosters

[WN83]

54 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Quote those stats all you wish, but he ain't playing as well as some of his contemporaries.

In games against Catalans reserves, Toulouse, half a HKR team etc, maybe but when the games matter, he's showing his class each and every time. He'll be the first name on the team sheet anyway regardless of what you or I think (and IMO he'll be one of our best players throughout the tournament, as he always is when the big games come round). 

 

 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, WN83 said:

In games against Catalans reserves, Toulouse, half a HKR team etc, maybe but when the games matter, he's showing his class each and every time. He'll be the first name on the team sheet anyway regardless of what you or I think (and IMO he'll be one of our best players throughout the tournament, as he always is when the big games come round). 

 

 

Stop being so selective. There have been plenty of games he has been anonymous since coming back to Wigan. It's nonsense how you are trying to make out he plays well in every big game but not others.

 

[WN83]

24 minutes ago, Damien said:

Stop being so selective. There have been plenty of games he has been anonymous since coming back to Wigan. It's nonsense how you are trying to make out he plays well in every big game but not others.

 

He was poor by his standards last season and he’s been good this season. Is that broad enough for you? Let’s ignore the fact he plays well in big games if that suits. 

He’ll be in Englands starting line up (if fit) in Newcastle as I said. I’m confident he’ll play well throughout the tournament because his history (I’ll not mention his recent history in big games) suggests he’s made for this level. 

[MattSantos]

44 minutes ago, SydneyRoosters said:

Most people don’t know this but Max King (Bulldogs Prop) Was born in Huddersfield and lived there for the first 8 years of his live whilst his dad for was playing for them. He’s been in terrific form recently and should be considered the England squad if he wants to play for them.

Wow. Is this a genuine thought?

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, WN83 said:

He was poor by his standards last season and he’s been good this season. Is that broad enough for you? Let’s ignore the fact he plays well in big games if that suits. 

He’ll be in Englands starting line up (if fit) in Newcastle as I said. I’m confident he’ll play well throughout the tournament because his history (I’ll not mention his recent history in big games) suggests he’s made for this level. 

He not been good, he's been better than last but nothing outstanding and certainly not a bolter for England. He's not been a patch on Farrell or several others at other clubs. People are saying he should play for England on name only.

[MattSantos]

6 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

Wow. Is this a genuine thought?

To be fair. This is harsh, i think he's an underrated player, but he's not England quality.

[MattSantos]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

He not been good, he's been better than last but nothing outstanding and certainly not a bolter for England. He's not been a patch on Farrell or several others at other clubs. People are saying he should play for England on name only.

For balance, it isn't name only. It's a reputation of playing well when it matters.

From all accounts, Farrell has been better this year for their club, but i've seen both play International RL and based on that, i'd go with Bateman, too.

 

 

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

For balance, it isn't name only. It's a reputation of playing well when it matters.

From all accounts, Farrell has been better this year for their club, but i've seen both play International RL and based on that, i'd go with Bateman, too.

I must have missed all these stand out international matches from Bateman. For many of them he has been anonymous and extremely limited in the centre.

Farrell has been better practically every year him and Bateman have played together, its not just this year. It's also not a choice of Farrell or Bateman. I'd have neither as they don't have the size. I'd have Bateman on the bench though.

[Dunbar]

With Bateman I think you get more than just ability, you get attitude as well.  You know that in the middle of a test match, the guy will never give up and never take a backward step.

One of my overriding memories of the 2017 final was when the Kangaroos had forced a goal line dropout from England and Lomax was sat in the in goal with his head down - Bateman shouted at him to get up.  I think that matters in tough games, you need characters to drive the team forward.

I think both Whitehead and Bateman have this character which is why I wouldn't argue with them being in the squad even if their club form is not as high as it could be.

[SydneyRoosters]

13 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

To be fair. This is harsh, i think he's an underrated player, but he's not England quality.

What is “England Quality” Surely being one of the Most in form front rowers in the nrl warrants you to be at least considered for England you would think.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, SydneyRoosters said:

What is “England Quality” Surely being one of the Most in form front rowers in the nrl warrants you to be at least considered for England you would think.

I have seen all the Bulldogs games this year and he is not as good as Walmsley, Oledzki, Thompson and T. Burgess.  This is our top line front row rotation for me.  After this, King may get a mention but there are others as well.

[SydneyRoosters]

8 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I have seen all the Bulldogs games this year and he is not as good as Walmsley, Oledzki, Thompson and T. Burgess.  This is our top line front row rotation for me.  After this, King may get a mention but there are others as well.

Yeah I agree he is no where near those other guys but I feel like he’s worth mentioning because of the form he has been on.

Edited September 8, 2022 by SydneyRoosters