England Squad

[Human Punk]

Can we not bribe/blackmail Sam Walker into turning out for England?

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Human Punk said:

Can we not bribe/blackmail Sam Walker into turning out for England?

We should do he qualifies by right, born in Leeds.

[StandOffHalf]

7 minutes ago, Human Punk said:

Can we not bribe/blackmail Sam Walker into turning out for England?

Walker and Radley in white/blue would really irk the Aussie authorities. It might force through a change in SOO eligibility.

I wouldn't be all that surprised to see Walker in the Aussie squad. He's there or thereabouts, and has been playing very well.

[Saint Toppy]

13 hours ago, Dunbar said:

You have posted more than a few times critiquing other people's teams.  Time to name yours now.

I'm not going to name my preferred team until we know who's actually available. There's quite a few players struggling to be fit, particularly in the backs.

In the backs there's probably only a small number of players guaranteed a place - Tomkins as he's captain, Makinson on one wing, Welsby and Lomax. The other wing position probably has 3 players fighting for the spot, Davies, Marshall & Murphy. Centre is a massive problem at the moment as none of the players who would most likely have been picked are remotely fit. Newman is gone for the year, Percival hasn't played for 3 months (and is only 50/50 to make it back for the play-off's) and Farnworth in a similar position. The only other English centre who's shown any sort of form is Wardle. King's form has dropped off a cliff from where he was a few seasons ago. Assuming Percival & Farnworth don't make it the most likely centre pairing would be Wardle & Welsby. I just hope to god Wane doesn't do like dumb ass Bennett and start playing a back rower like Bateman at centre.

Half back is another serious problem with the only player who's played well this year being Lomax. Williams has been seriously hit & miss all year (1 half decent game followed by 5-6 anonymous ones). Neither Pryce or Lewis have really kicked on this year as most people would have hoped from their 2021 form, and Hastings has been gash. At this stage it will probably Williams who get the nod at 7 along side Lomax, largely because there isn't anybody else.

Aside from hooker the rest of the Forwards are pretty OK for depth & options. Walmsley (assuming he's fit), Bateman & Knowles are probably automatic picks at prop, SR & LF so its down to Wane's preferences as to who starts in the other prop & SR spots Though there's probably question marks over Thompson's fitness he's probably going to get a spot somewhere in the team. Hooker is another problem area this year. sadly Roby won't come out of retirement and none of the other options have been consistently good. McShane & Clarke have had really poor years compared to past seasons form and McIlorum i've never really rated at that level aside from being a tough tackling machine. Probably the most consistent this year has been Leeming, though I have serious concerns over some of his decision making. I think Wane's most likely choice is going to be starting with McIlorum & have Leeming on the bench.

Without wanting to be all doom & gloom I think England have some serious problems with quality & squad depth and I can't see them beating Aus, NZ or Tonga.

[V02]

12 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

What and move away from the norm of what GB/England coaches have done for the last 50 years Bob, you would have thought it would have clicked with one of them by now.

Why do you think that you have it right and all the England/GB coaches have it wrong?

12 hours ago, bobbruce said:

I think it does if Wane is brave and picks form players. Instead of sticking to the tried and tested. 

Because form is often short-hand for "hype and scores tries, particularly flashy ones". Remember the Greg Eden for England arguments?

[DavidM]

20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

We should do he qualifies by right, born in Leeds.

You only qualify to play for a country ‘ by right ‘ through being born there ? Even if , say , you leave as a baby … and someone born in another country moves here as a baby 

Edited September 6, 2022 by DavidM

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, V02 said:

Why do you think that you have it right and all the England/GB coaches have it wrong?

Evidently GB/England winning zilch, nothing, didly squat and being barren in the trophy cabinet for the last 51 years, tells me all those coaches haven't got it right.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, DavidM said:

You only qualify to play for a country ‘ by right ‘ through being born there ? Even if , say , you leave as a baby … and someone born in another country moves here as a baby 

No, I said he qualifies by right nothing else David, you have added another equation.

[V02]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Evidently GB/England winning zilch, nothing, didly squat and being barren in the trophy cabinet for the last 51 years, tells me all those coaches haven't got it right.

Or it tells you that Australia have better players.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, V02 said:

Because form is often short-hand for "hype and scores tries, particularly flashy ones". Remember the Greg Eden for England arguments?

Yes, and I also remember the player's who played consistently well like Briers and Brough who got overlooked by the respective coaches at the time they ard just 2 examples. Everytime international selection comes up there will be those selected not because they are the best players in that position at the time of selection but because they have a previous reputation, e.g. John Bateman was by far the best player on the GB tour of '19 and most probably the best forward in the domestic game prior to going to Aus, but the version of Bateman at Wigan since his return for me doesn't warrent selection there are back rows performing much better, he is not even the best at his club, but I will bet he gets selected in the hope that he can suddenly turn back the clock and be the same John Bateman as in 2019.

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

Watkins at centre!? 

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, V02 said:

Or it tells you that Australia have better players.

I will go along with that, but you also must concede that if we had selected others things may have turned out differently, there were series in the the early 00's that there was not much between the teams, perhap's different blood could have brought different results, alas we will never know that, but one thing is for certain we lost, look at the record books.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

Watkins at centre!? 

Either centre or back row, I don't believe I have ever seen him perform better than he is doing this season

Edited September 6, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[SalfordSlim]

30 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I'm not going to name my preferred team until we know who's actually available. There's quite a few players struggling to be fit, particularly in the backs.

In the backs there's probably only a small number of players guaranteed a place - Tomkins as he's captain, Makinson on one wing, Welsby and Lomax. The other wing position probably has 3 players fighting for the spot, Davies, Marshall & Murphy. 

As in Tom Davies? Hmm ok then.... not sure what that's based on but Joe Burgess should be miles ahead of him in the pecking order.

[SalfordSlim]

4 minutes ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

Watkins at centre!? 

Nope. Great player but lost some of his speed so would get found out in the backline. He should be nailed on as one of the 2nd row spots in the squad though based on his form this season.

[Saint Toppy]

24 minutes ago, SalfordSlim said:

As in Tom Davies? Hmm ok then.... not sure what that's based on but Joe Burgess should be miles ahead of him in the pecking order.

Yep the same Davies whos in the England squad, has been picked previously by Wane and played pretty well at that level.

Having said that I'd still pick Marshall over both of them - he's having an outstanding year, and then Murphy would be my next choice.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Saint Toppy

[Damien]

Davies is a solid player but isn't an international winger and there are better players who offer more. I'd put Marshall in the same category too.

[GeordieSaint]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Davies is a solid player but isn't an international winger and there are better players who offer more. I'd put Marshall in the same category too.

Which is why club form is not the primary selection criteria IMO. Talent, experience, form, even potential are just some of the criteria. 

So the likes of Davies, Marshall, possibly Batchelor (?!) at Saints are examples of excellent club players but without the ability to step up to international elite level. Same with Hall but that he’s lost his pace; that should discount him. Lynne at Wakefield is another - doesn’t have the stretch potential. 

[SalfordSlim]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

Davies is a solid player but isn't an international winger and there are better players who offer more. I'd put Marshall in the same category too.

Agree. I know Burgess was deemed surplus to requirements at Wigan because of Marshall but I genuinely believe he's a better all-round winger. Burgess did have a big dip in form but I think like Watkins he's totally re-energised at Salford and probably isn't the same player that left Wigan. He's also physically far more suited to international rugby (and size is one of the main drawbacks with Farrell for me, as brilliant as he is at club level).

I know I'm setting myself up for some serious grief over this though...

Edited September 6, 2022 by SalfordSlim

[Dunbar]

I like Lewis Murphy, I think he has great potential but the standard of the opposition has to be taken into account when looking at these options. His 4 try haul against the Saints u19 team a few weeks ago needs to be compared to Dom Young who has scored 5 tries in his last 3 NRL games and run for an average of 167 metres.

Two of those 3 teams (Sharks and Raiders) are about to embark on the NRL finals from this weekend.  Some people can't seem to see that this quality of opposition matters when evaluating a player but luckily Wane seems to have.

Makinson is a lock for the wing.  With Johnstone injured I would have Young next in the pecking order followed by Burgess.  All fantastic athletes who are really strong carrying in the first plays of a set - this is critical in international rugby.

[UTK]

I'm not a big subscriber to the rather arbitrary "XYZ isn't an international player", if someone is performing to a high level in SL then they should be in the frame for England selection. I often look back at the Kangaroos side that won the 2017 WC and indeed ones that won previous 4 Nations etc and think how the hell did XYZ player get a start for the Kangaroos. The reality is though at the time those players had come off the back off strong form to finish the NRL season and were able to supply a certain set of attributes that could benefit the team, even if they were never necessarily superstars or gamebreakers these guys played a certain role that could contribute to the success of the team.

If your performances stand out or are considered among the best in your position in either SL or NRL then you have what is required to make a contribution in some form at International level, from there it is down to a coach to facilitate a players strengths and support any perceived weaknesses. Now if a player is given multiple chances at international level and delivers repeated poor performances or a shortcoming is exposed in some way then sure, feel free to write that player off, but for guys who have yet to be given a chance to prove themselves at that level I don't think it's sensible to rule them out on this "not international quality" basis.

 

[Ant]

This all just absolutely highlights why a lack of tests serves the game incredibly poorly on so many levels for so many reasons. 

If IMG do anything useful it should be to put the international game as top billing.

 

To touch on what UTK just said though, I remember when Luke Robinson was picked as England 9 - a dearth of injuries saw him as about 5th choice and this forum and others were full of nothing but criticism of him before a ball was kicked.

He went onto be England's player of the tournament, so since then I'm way more inclined to listen to the idea of picking on form, not club or past reputation, since that's won us nothing.

Hard to see who to pick in any position, because the perception is "no one is test level". Except we have ZERO idea who is or isn't, how many great club players have been a damp squib at test level. A lot more than players not considered good enough actually shone at test level, like Robbo (and Kev Brown in the same series, also hugely criticised).

 

We have some excellent fullbacks, at the wrong clubs. Same with wingers and centres. Just they wear the wrong Jersey each week. 

Halfbacks, likewise (Russell at the Giants is one of the most measured and best organisers in SL, nothing flash but its him that gets the Giants dowfield for Tui & Fages to shine - kinda like Robbo did for Brough).

Forward, jeez if there's one area we can compete it's there. I'm amazed Hill isn't being considered. Epic this season, but in reality we could pick a hat full of superb players.

 

We won't win by following the same formula, sadly I suspect our best outcome will be a short Wayne tenure. 

TL:DR. 

Ultimately we will struggle because we dont play enough tests, also take your club specks off and admit that other clubs have some amazing talent. 

 

[Man of Kent]

Do we know when the actual squad will be announced?

[DavidM]

6 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Do we know when the actual squad will be announced?

When Shaun has read all these threads 

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, DavidM said:

When Shaun has read all these threads 

Yes, you can just imagine Waney hunched over his laptop, eagerly awaiting The Daddy's picks.