Reality check again

[binosh]

37 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Half the English teams offer the English game nothing. France on the other hand currently offers the English game 2 fully professional squads of players, of which 3 of the current England team, including the captain, play for.

Catalans have also won more in their 15 or so year history in the English game than Super League clubs Wakefield, Cas, Huddersfield, Salford, Hull KR have in over 30 years (equalling the 2 pieces of "Treble Silverware" that Hull FC have got in that time too). I only included current Super League sides who have been consistently in the division there, the list is of course much longer.

The thread was about the international game, since the inclusion of Catalan/PSG the English/British National team are further away from Australia than ever and are now behind Samoa, NZ possibly Tonga aswell.

My point is until we have 14 strong English SL teams with reserves/academies we will not bridge that gap. 
 

[Gomersall]

44 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Half the English teams offer the English game nothing. France on the other hand currently offers the English game 2 fully professional squads of players, of which 3 of the current England team, including the captain, play for.

Catalans have also won more in their 15 or so year history in the English game than Super League clubs Wakefield, Cas, Huddersfield, Salford, Hull KR have in over 30 years (equalling the 2 pieces of "Treble Silverware" that Hull FC have got in that time too). I only included current Super League sides who have been consistently in the division there, the list is of course much longer.

Hull have won the CC three times in the last seventeen years. 

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, binosh said:

The thread was about the international game, since the inclusion of Catalan/PSG the English/British National team are further away from Australia than ever and are now behind Samoa, NZ possibly Tonga aswell.

My point is until we have 14 strong English SL teams with reserves/academies we will not bridge that gap. 
 

Without Catalans the quality of the English league decreases significantly, they are a top club. As it stands, there are no other English teams capable of stepping up and investing to the same level. PSG were over 25 years ago...

The quality of Super League has undeniably declined, particularly over the last decade or so. That won't be solved by getting rid of one of the strongest clubs in the league. If we want results, we need to improve (or improve beyond) those mentioned in my earlier post. IMG are aiming to do that.

[binosh]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Without Catalans the quality of the English league decreases significantly, they are a top club. As it stands, there are no other English teams capable of stepping up and investing to the same level. PSG were over 25 years ago...

The quality of Super League has undeniably declined, particularly over the last decade or so. That won't be solved by getting rid of one of the strongest clubs in the league. If we want results, we need to improve (or improve beyond) those mentioned in my earlier post. IMG are aiming to do that.

I didn’t say get rid of them but we need at least 14 top tier English clubs to create the player pool to compete with Australia. It’s funding we need and a better structure for reserves/academy.

Catalans & Toulouse would be fine joining SL but the responsibility for the improvement Of the french game/national team that I keep reading about should be their focus, not England’s we need to get our own game in order.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

It’s simple really. We no longer produce the players of the statute Edwards, Hanley, Gregory, Schofield,  Offiah etc. Why we don’t is another story.

[Tommygilf]

29 minutes ago, binosh said:

I didn’t say get rid of them but we need at least 14 top tier English clubs to create the player pool to compete with Australia. It’s funding we need and a better structure for reserves/academy.

Catalans & Toulouse would be fine joining SL but the responsibility for the improvement Of the french game/national team that I keep reading about should be their focus, not England’s we need to get our own game in order.

Why would you keep something which in your words "offer nothing"? 

France improving is in English interests. It would mean a larger strong player pool for English players to develop in. 

Player pool increases (mens and boys rugby) in the UK are not going to come along the M62 now. Nor are the numbers to make up your 14 English super clubs. IMG and the RFL are clearly aware of this.

[ghost crayfish]

The gap between the top teams is very small. The issue is 4 of the 5 top teams are from the southern hemisphere and (primarily) NRL. Yesterday's result is so disappointing because I firmly believe England should have won this World Cup. I think their easy run to the semis hurt them big time. They got a bit slack.

They played most of the game with nothing like the intensity or attention to detail they had in the opener. In the brief passages of play when they did show that same intent, they rolled through Samoa easily. Unfortunately, they bombed multiple tries while conceding multiple soft ones in reply - all due to mental lapses, not ability. 

As always, the answer for England is clear: English players need more exposure to top level intensity. They need to shorten the Superleague season, bring back the roses game, and focus on helping to turn France into legitimate competition to play 1-2 times a year. This is all achievable. Beyond that, they need an international calendar that gives them 3-4 games against the top southern hemisphere teams every year.

For this tournament, I believe Wane picked the right team and they looked well coached and cohesive - the best England has looked in my memory. Unfortunately, all the easy wins created some bad habits that were exposed at the worst possible time. If Newman can fulfil his potential and guys like Pryce and Pearce-Paul mirror what Young has done by doing to the NRL, then there's a bright future ahead. Here's hoping a strong international calendar gives them meaningful opportunities to move on from this.

Edited November 14, 2022 by ghost crayfish

[The storm]

On 12/11/2022 at 18:06, eal said:

Super League just doesn't provide the intensity required for these big games. Look how calm Samoa were in golden point. Luai, To'o, Crichton, etc have seen it all in the NRL. 

The game was within reach. 

I do think our salary cap should be increased to around 2.5 million, but the fact that some teams still dont have acadamy teams is quite shocking

[Balmain1969]

On 13/11/2022 at 00:46, Live after death said:

Here we are again same old same old. 
after the shock and domination and 82 86 kangaroos, we ltd overseas players to 3 then early mid 90’s we caught right up and came within a whisker. We now are further and further behind and not even top 3 side.

fact is if we want to compete again we need the salary up and reduce overseas quota to 5 then 3 within 5 years and no loop holes. 

 

Did I miss something here, England got beaten in extra time by a team almost entirely built on Origin and Premiership players from the NRL, and probably should have won because realistically they were the stronger team

Australia and NZ have all lost to Tonga over the last 5 years, and remember NZ only just survived against Fiji in the QF and went on to all but beat the kangaroos.

It's not that England are further behind, I think this is probably one of the strongest teams they've had in years, also missing a few players and more encouragingly there seems to be some talented youth coming through.  The main factor is that other teams are getting stronger and have caught up, as long as Samoa don't get to overawed by the occasion I think you'll find Aus will have similar issues with them next week.

RL in the UK definitely needs fixing, but the world isn't burning, a Kangaroo tour next year would be a very competitive series.

[Balmain1969]

Mal was discussing a Kangaroo tour, hopefully happens next year inc midweek club games.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Balmain1969

[Iceberg Slim]

38 minutes ago, Balmain1969 said:

Mal was discussing a Kangaroo tour, hopefully happens next year inc midweek club games.

The midweek club games era is done has been for 25 years. A 3 test tour is all you’ll get but they should chuck in a French test as well

[Jimmy B]

Just out of interest, was last Saturdays Samoa team entirely made up of NRL players ?
Genuine question.

[Damien]

7 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

It’s simple really. We no longer produce the players of the statute Edwards, Hanley, Gregory, Schofield,  Offiah etc. Why we don’t is another story.

Ah, the players that didn't win a World Cup or Ashes either.

[binosh]

8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Why would you keep something which in your words "offer nothing"? 

France improving is in English interests. It would mean a larger strong player pool for English players to develop in. 

Player pool increases (mens and boys rugby) in the UK are not going to come along the M62 now. Nor are the numbers to make up your 14 English super clubs. IMG and the RFL are clearly aware of this.

Because Catalans & Toulouse offer variety and in the long run the potential of a better TV deal (we hope) and the opportunity to call the competition European. They don’t help the National team at all. New Zealand Warriors don’t help the Australian National team either.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, binosh said:

Because Catalans & Toulouse offer variety and in the long run the potential of a better TV deal (we hope) and the opportunity to call the competition European. They don’t help the National team at all. New Zealand Warriors don’t help the Australian National team either.

Strong clubs like Catalans improve the standard of SL by spending up to the cap, signing marquee players and having a quality squad. This increases standards and makes for a better and more competitive competition. A better competition with more clubs spending more money and signing better players improves the national team.

[rlno1]

On 13/11/2022 at 05:21, Farmduck said:

What year was that? In the 70s there was barely even 1 Brit per club in the NSWRL.

The Australian game had plenty of top class English players upto about 1977 when the ban came in. Infact had they been allowed to play for Gt Britain they would have won most series upto this point.

Edited November 14, 2022 by rlno1

[rlno1]

9 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

It’s simple really. We no longer produce the players of the statute Edwards, Hanley, Gregory, Schofield,  Offiah etc. Why we don’t is another story.

Correct the lack of quality halves is a huge problem.

[Balmain1969]

2 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

The midweek club games era is done has been for 25 years. A 3 test tour is all you’ll get but they should chuck in a French test as well

Mal has spoken regularly about it, this wouldn't overly extend a tour but would give the fringe squad members a chance to play midweek against SL clubs. I'm sure there would be a couple of SL clubs that would put their hand up to host and try and put some cash in the bank.

 

Meninga hopeful of reviving Kangaroo tours

 

Australia’s Test and World Cup coach Mal Meninga has again stressed the need for Kangaroo Tours of Britain to be revived.

And when Tests aren’t involved, he wants to take the Australians in a sweep through Britain and play games against leading Super League club sides and maybe other in growth areas of the nation.

He is planning to sit down with members of the ARL Commission hierarchy before the start of the new NRL season to plan a new-look international calendar for Australia.

“We want to create a programme where the players are again excited to pull on the green and gold,” Meninga explained.

“That’s why well be talking about an international Nines Tournament and maybe Australia ‘A’ international, so the next generation of players are part of an emerging programme, but are playing on an international stage.

“Rugby union do it well with the Bledisloe Cup (between Australia and New Zealand), World Cup and Six Nations, and their Sevens.”

[rlno1]

7 hours ago, ghost crayfish said:

The gap between the top teams is very small. The issue is 4 of the 5 top teams are from the southern hemisphere and (primarily) NRL. Yesterday's result is so disappointing because I firmly believe England should have won this World Cup. I think their easy run to the semis hurt them big time. They got a bit slack.

They played most of the game with nothing like the intensity or attention to detail they had in the opener. In the brief passages of play when they did show that same intent, they rolled through Samoa easily. Unfortunately, they bombed multiple tries while conceding multiple soft ones in reply - all due to mental lapses, not ability. 

As always, the answer for England is clear: English players need more exposure to top level intensity. They need to shorten the Superleague season, bring back the roses game, and focus on helping to turn France into legitimate competition to play 1-2 times a year. This is all achievable. Beyond that, they need an international calendar that gives them 3-4 games against the top southern hemisphere teams every year.

For this tournament, I believe Wane picked the right team and they looked well coached and cohesive - the best England has looked in my memory. Unfortunately, all the easy wins created some bad habits that were exposed at the worst possible time. If Newman can fulfil his potential and guys like Pryce and Pearce-Paul mirror what Young has done by doing to the NRL, then there's a bright future ahead. Here's hoping a strong international calendar gives them meaningful opportunities to move on from this.

I think the comfortable wins gave them a confidence in the team they chose really needed a game or two under pressure to see where the weaknesses were. That first game v Samoa and QF could have been those games and to a lesser extent the French game.

 

[rlno1]

2 hours ago, Jimmy B said:

Just out of interest, was last Saturdays Samoa team entirely made up of NRL players ?
Genuine question.

2 players from Super League, Lafai and Sao.

Edited November 14, 2022 by rlno1

[rlno1]

3 minutes ago, Balmain1969 said:

Mal has spoken regularly about it, this wouldn't overly extend a tour but would give the fringe squad members a chance to play midweek against SL clubs. I'm sure there would be a couple of SL clubs that would put their hand up to host and try and put some cash in the bank.

 

Meninga hopeful of reviving Kangaroo tours

 

Australia’s Test and World Cup coach Mal Meninga has again stressed the need for Kangaroo Tours of Britain to be revived.

And when Tests aren’t involved, he wants to take the Australians in a sweep through Britain and play games against leading Super League club sides and maybe other in growth areas of the nation.

He is planning to sit down with members of the ARL Commission hierarchy before the start of the new NRL season to plan a new-look international calendar for Australia.

“We want to create a programme where the players are again excited to pull on the green and gold,” Meninga explained.

“That’s why well be talking about an international Nines Tournament and maybe Australia ‘A’ international, so the next generation of players are part of an emerging programme, but are playing on an international stage.

“Rugby union do it well with the Bledisloe Cup (between Australia and New Zealand), World Cup and Six Nations, and their Sevens.”

Isn't this what the IRL Board were doing creating a program or is Mal and the NRL going to do their own thing as usual.

[Farmduck]

3 minutes ago, rlno1 said:

The Australian game had plenty of top class English players upto about 1977 when the ban came in. Infact had they been allowed to play for Gt Britain they would have won most series upto this point.

I don't recognise all the names but Iooked at 1977 and there were Stevo, Jeff Grayshon, John Gray, Steve Norton and Gary Stephens. (By that stage I think Stevo was considered an immigrant rather than an import.)

Quote

Infact had they been allowed to play for Gt Britain they would have won most series upto this point.

I don't understand this sentence. If you take Grayshon as an example, ENG/GB didn't play any games while he was at Cronulla, same with Steve Norton at Manly in '76 and '77

[Iceberg Slim]

29 minutes ago, Balmain1969 said:

Mal has spoken regularly about it, this wouldn't overly extend a tour but would give the fringe squad members a chance to play midweek against SL clubs. I'm sure there would be a couple of SL clubs that would put their hand up to host and try and put some cash in the bank.

 

Meninga hopeful of reviving Kangaroo tours

 

Australia’s Test and World Cup coach Mal Meninga has again stressed the need for Kangaroo Tours of Britain to be revived.

And when Tests aren’t involved, he wants to take the Australians in a sweep through Britain and play games against leading Super League club sides and maybe other in growth areas of the nation.

He is planning to sit down with members of the ARL Commission hierarchy before the start of the new NRL season to plan a new-look international calendar for Australia.

“We want to create a programme where the players are again excited to pull on the green and gold,” Meninga explained.

“That’s why well be talking about an international Nines Tournament and maybe Australia ‘A’ international, so the next generation of players are part of an emerging programme, but are playing on an international stage.

“Rugby union do it well with the Bledisloe Cup (between Australia and New Zealand), World Cup and Six Nations, and their Sevens.”

I don’t know how many times Mal has suggested a concept for international rl but it never happens. I don’t think he has much pulling power over the Arlc apart from being coach. They would need to send over a 40 man squad to fulfill all of those obligations I just don’t see the arlc letting all those players go

[Iceberg Slim]

28 minutes ago, rlno1 said:

Isn't this what the IRL Board were doing creating a program or is Mal and the NRL going to do their own thing as usual.

Mals job is to build the kangaroos brand I’ve heard him quote every possible idea under the sun but I’m not sure he can convince the arlc to do anything. He’s said he wanted a 3 test series against the kiwis. I doubt that would ever happen. I give him credit for acknowledging the test on Friday as high quality from both teams. 
 

if it does happen I’ll give him credit but I reckon the kangaroos will play one test next year and their players will go on holiday after that 

[steve oates]

13 hours ago, binosh said:

The thread was about the international game, since the inclusion of Catalan/PSG the English/British National team are further away from Australia than ever and are now behind Samoa, NZ possibly Tonga aswell.

My point is until we have 14 strong English SL teams with reserves/academies we will not bridge that gap. 
 

Where are you going to get "14 strong English SL teams" from?? 

Has the massive downturn in junior RL, RU and even Soccer over recent years passed you by? 

Do you not see that we cram our Professional sides with overseas players to get the best quality teams we can to underpin the SKY TV deal..... 

How much do you think it costs clubs to run reserves and academies??  Where would we get the many ££thousands to set this all up?

How successful are even our top clubs in bringing through quality English players as compared to say 20 years ago?

I really do think you should look into the reality that kids nowadays shun playing soccer and Rugby, OK the numbers may be significant when mum and dad take them/make them go to the local clubs, but once these lads get into their teenage years they find better things to do than go play rugby and soccer on a cold weekend morning

At least soccer is a draw for the kids as it's such a big game here, but Rugby League is NOT a big game here. 

It is however big down under, so they will hammer us even more as time goes by and there is nothing we can do to stop that......................