England v France Double Header in Warrington - mid-season 2023

[Midlands hobo]

How about notts county ground. It's just under 20k out of the core heartlands for those that want somewhere new but close enough for those I want it along the M62 heartlands. True fans. Insert stereotypical tripe here.

[Leonard]

9 minutes ago, Midlands hobo said:

How about notts county ground. It's just under 20k out of the core heartlands for those that want somewhere new but close enough for those I want it along the M62 heartlands. True fans. Insert stereotypical tripe here.

If only Kingston Park was a bit bigger.

Newcastle would probably be optimum to build on some momentum.

[Midlands hobo]

Just now, Leonard said:

If only Kingston Park was a bit bigger.

Newcastle would probably be optimum to build on some momentum.

True but it's a proper trek for anyone not from the heartlands. Mrs hobo cannot bring herself to support Wales in anything and would probably enjoy the day out but not a chance am I driving 4 hours to Newcastle.

Worcester? 11k currently empty with no regular use.

[Leonard]

2 minutes ago, Midlands hobo said:

True but it's a proper trek for anyone not from the heartlands. Mrs hobo cannot bring herself to support Wales in anything and would probably enjoy the day out but not a chance am I driving 4 hours to Newcastle.

Worcester? 11k currently empty with no regular use.

ha ! i wonder if they have any players looking for a job.

[Anita Bath]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Hull have just attracted 7,100 to New Zealand v Fiji in a WC QF, if anything that should rule it out if ever hosting another England game. 

No, it should rule it. out from ever hosting another WC QF between NZ and Fiji (or teams of similarstanding).

They may have got a full house for England v PNG

[Tippytoe]

46 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Anywhere interested in international rugby league

Central Anywhere,thanks I understand now

[theswanmcr]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

Is Hull really more ambitious? Arguably, it’s selling more to the same people, much like most events The RFL are behind. 

 

Hull has a capacity of 25K… 10k more than Warrington. It is also more than we sold for England games in Bolton and Sheffield for the World Cup be something to aim for.

The general consensus is that a double header in Warrington isn’t ambitious…. but this thread shows that there is no agreement on what we should be ambitious about.

Is it a bigger crowd in a big ‘event’ stadium, playing separate games for men and women, playing in or out of heartlands. As we don’t play enough there is just too much pressure on each game when they do come around.

[Coastal_Geordie]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

Why Coventry out of interest? 

No good reason really - just considered they have lost their Rugby Union team Wasps so there may be some people looking for an event to go to, and it is a reasonable sized arena (but not too big) outside the heartlands.  

[Leonard]

33 minutes ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

No good reason really - just considered they have lost their Rugby Union team Wasps so there may be some people looking for an event to go to, and it is a reasonable sized arena (but not too big) outside the heartlands.  

They always seem to pull a decent crowd and it's not heartlands. I'd imagine you could charge a bit more as well. Not sure what Warrington does for 'the game'.

Plus clearly a wasp shaped hole in the region too. 

[Mattrhino]

A small mercy is that its not being held in Leigh. 

But honestly that's all, nobody wants to watch an event in Warrington.

6-7000 at Warrington to watch this what is the point. 

[Mattrhino]

15 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

I personally think Headingley would be better and be reward for them getting decent crowds at the world cup, its also more ambitious 

Don't understand why Headingley never get these games anymore. Only city that will guarantee a good crowd whether at ER or Headingley. Maybe they charge too much to hold the games.

So many games have been held over in Leigh and Warrington and have never got a good crowd.

[crashmon]

So my thoughts on this, as I think people are looking at 2 different issues (but combining them into 1)
 

Issue 1 :- We need to be playing more international games to help build the England brand, and playing vs other international teams

Issue 2:- We want to get more people attending the England games.

Now playing France in warrington fixes issue 1, but not potentially issue 2, but for me the fact we are playing France and not the Combined nations or similar is a big step forward. Yes it would be nice to play it somewhere more else but small steps are good steps.  We are also playing on a Sat not midweek which is also good (I can get up north on a weekend, not mid week).

Lets just be happy we are actually playing a midseason international vs a proper internatonal opponent (yes france are not at our standard but this helps them improve).  As if this is done right its something which we can build on, and then look at how we get more people attending

[Damien]

1 minute ago, crashmon said:

Lets just be happy we are actually playing a midseason international vs a proper internatonal opponent (yes france are not at our standard but this helps them improve).  As if this is done right its something which we can build on, and then look at how we get more people attending

This is completely the wrong way to look at it.

We should be building on the World Cup and the crowds and exposure that the England team has got, that should be the starting point to build on. It should not be reverting to type with a double header at an average heartland SL ground with cheap tickets. That is not being done right and gives nothing to build on as we are devaluing everything about this match right from the start.

[crashmon]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is completely the wrong way to look at it.

We should be building on the World Cup and the crowds and exposure that the England team has got, that should be the starting point to build on. It should not be reverting to type with a double header at an average heartland SL ground with cheap tickets. That is not being done right and gives nothing to build on as we are devaluing everything about this match right from the start.

Depends on what you aim is here

1) Getting England in shape for 2025 WC.  This means more games vs international teams, CN /Exiles is a waste of time as has been shown, it needs to be vs proper international teams. In NH France are the closest team to us, so playing them mid season anywhere (even in my local park), it better than playing CN / Exiles in Headingly or Old Trafford or anywhere.

On top of this we need games after the season vs opposition of similar quality. If Tonga and Samoa want to play each other around the world, have them come here in October, and have them play each other in London, with the caaveat that they also play one game vs England and France ( so 2 weekends, one weekend Samoa v Tonga, and 2nd weekend France v Tonga, England v Samoa)

To me this is not related to how we grow the England brand and get more people at the games, and spread awareness. Thats a different issue and is not solved by England v France in warrington

[Damien]

Just now, crashmon said:

Depends on what you aim is here

1) Getting England in shape for 2025 WC.  This means more games vs international teams, CN /Exiles is a waste of time as has been shown, it needs to be vs proper international teams. In NH France are the closest team to us, so playing them mid season anywhere (even in my local park), it better than playing CN / Exiles in Headingly or Old Trafford or anywhere.

On top of this we need games after the season vs opposition of similar quality. If Tonga and Samoa want to play each other around the world, have them come here in October, and have them play each other in London, with the caaveat that they also play one game vs England and France ( so 2 weekends, one weekend Samoa v Tonga, and 2nd weekend France v Tonga, England v Samoa)

To me this is not related to how we grow the England brand and get more people at the games, and spread awareness. Thats a different issue and is not solved by England v France in warrington

It doesn't depend on what the aim is at all. No one has complained about playing France, you are deciding to conflate issues there for pretty much no reason.

What my reply was to you was quite specific, as are the complaints on this thread, and that is regarding the manner this game is being put on and the whole if this is done right it's something we can build on attitude. It's completely the wrong way to look at it on the back of a World Cup where England have averaged a touch under 30k fans a game.

It also completely the wrong way to look at developing the women's game on the back of their increased exposure.

[Chrispmartha]

The lack of ambition really is bad IMO

We’ve just had s pretty much full stadium for a Womens game, averaged 30k ish for England mens games (including obvious walkover games)

And what do they do, put a double header in at a stadium which really underperformed in attendances in the WC.

England V France is great and marketable but if we keep on doing what  weve always done we’ll get what weve always got.

[GeordieSaint]

30 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

The lack of ambition really is bad IMO

We’ve just had s pretty much full stadium for a Womens game, averaged 30k ish for England mens games (including obvious walkover games)

And what do they do, put a double header in at a stadium which really underperformed in attendances in the WC.

England V France is great and marketable but if we keep on doing what  weve always done we’ll get what weve always got.

Cheap and easy option. That’s what they’ve done. Because that’s their default setting. And they have no plan to grow the sport. There is no strategy. It’s half easy measures time and time again. They never learn. It’s pure incompetence. 

[pahars]

26 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

The lack of ambition really is bad IMO

We’ve just had s pretty much full stadium for a Womens game, averaged 30k ish for England mens games (including obvious walkover games)

And what do they do, put a double header in at a stadium which really underperformed in attendances in the WC.

England V France is great and marketable but if we keep on doing what  weve always done we’ll get what weve always got.

Yeah. The 4 men only England games averaged 31,250 at high prices, the England men/women double header got 23,000 at high prices. The 3 women only England double headers averaged 7,000 at lower prices. 
 

There is a lot of data to analyse there and I appreciate ‘it’s a world cup’ is a factor. But I fail to see how the result can a double header in a 15,000 stadium at low prices. 

[Chrispmartha]

15 minutes ago, pahars said:

Yeah. The 4 men only England games averaged 31,250 at high prices, the England men/women double header got 23,000 at high prices. The 3 women only England double headers averaged 7,000 at lower prices. 
 

There is a lot of data to analyse there and I appreciate ‘it’s a world cup’ is a factor. But I fail to see how the result can a double header in a 15,000 stadium at low prices. 

I think York is a great base for Women’s England team and they should play this home international there - from the games ive been to the target fan base is vastly different to the Mens game so they should have some ambition and market to that audience, they will have data for everyone who attended the England women’s game, so use it.

No England Mens full international should be in a sub 20k stadium IMO

[GeordieSaint]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

I think York is a great base for Women’s England team and they should play this home international there - from the games ive been to the target fan base is vastly different to the Mens game so they should have some ambition and market to that audience, they will have data for everyone who attended the England women’s game, so use it.

No England Mens full international should be in a sub 20k stadium IMO

Yep - decoupling the men’s and women’s teams is important. York seems a great base considering there is already a strong women’s team in the city.

Regarding the men’s team, size of the stadium is important, but I think the location is more critical. We have 3 x key locations identified in England by IMG: the Northeast - Heartlands - London. I really don’t think Warrington is in need of a game to develop the sport; other areas do so I’d be aiming these types of fixtures in development areas - London for example.

The RFL should be seeking to develop relationships with certain stadia across the country to use as bases for different levels of international games. St James Park - the Eithad - Elland Road - Spurs Stadium for big internationals. Wigan - Huddersfield - maybe Craven Cottage or the Brentford Community Stadium - Darlington for smaller internationals; possibly Coventry if we are keen to push in the Midlands. Constantly reinforcing these games in these areas each year is important to build on interest and an international culture across the sport over here. It’s really important and an opportunity as people do really enjoy our sport when they go to watch it. We need to take advantage of that. Warrington simply doesn’t do that for neither the men’s nor women’s game.

[unapologetic pedant]

One reason why big crowds go to meaningless RU Barbarians games is because people know that both teams are under a tacit agreement to entertain.

The England v France RLWC game was mostly turgid. Do we want to see a repeat next year? What is the point of the French ploughing through the unholy trinity of complete your sets/get to your kick/ build pressure in a, probably vain, attempt to keep the score down?

We should definitely play the French home and away, men`s and women`s, every year. But let`s try and establish a tradition of this fixture being entertaining. Throw off the shackles, ditch the grind, get rid of the video ref, instruct on-field officials to stop looking for knock-ons/forward passes/obstructions, and for once a year just let the players get on with it.

[Jughead]

14 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

One reason why big crowds go to meaningless RU Barbarians games is because people know that both teams are under a tacit agreement to entertain.

The England v France RLWC game was mostly turgid. Do we want to see a repeat next year? What is the point of the French ploughing through the unholy trinity of complete your sets/get to your kick/ build pressure in a, probably vain, attempt to keep the score down?

We should definitely play the French home and away, men`s and women`s, every year. But let`s try and establish a tradition of this fixture being entertaining. Throw off the shackles, ditch the grind, get rid of the video ref, instruct on-field officials to stop looking for knock-ons/forward passes/obstructions, and for once a year just let the players get on with it.

The difference between a made up side and England and France is that England and France have tournaments to prepare for, England with the unlikely premise of winning it and France, firstly, qualifying for the tournament and competing against bigger nations. 

[Hanover XIII]

23 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

One reason why big crowds go to meaningless RU Barbarians games is because people know that both teams are under a tacit agreement to entertain.

The England v France RLWC game was mostly turgid. Do we want to see a repeat next year? What is the point of the French ploughing through the unholy trinity of complete your sets/get to your kick/ build pressure in a, probably vain, attempt to keep the score down?

We should definitely play the French home and away, men`s and women`s, every year. But let`s try and establish a tradition of this fixture being entertaining. Throw off the shackles, ditch the grind, get rid of the video ref, instruct on-field officials to stop looking for knock-ons/forward passes/obstructions, and for once a year just let the players get on with it.

If we're going to go down that road, then this approach should be the Other Nationalities game, surely. England v France has to count for something as a Test match for which caps are awarded irrespective of the entertainment value.

[crashmon]

2 hours ago, pahars said:

Yeah. The 4 men only England games averaged 31,250 at high prices, the England men/women double header got 23,000 at high prices. The 3 women only England double headers averaged 7,000 at lower prices. 
 

There is a lot of data to analyse there and I appreciate ‘it’s a world cup’ is a factor. But I fail to see how the result can a double header in a 15,000 stadium at low prices. 

My guess is that they had already pencilled in England v Combined nations at warrington for next year even before the world cup, so all they have done is switch to France instead of Combined nations, and added the women as an afterthought.

But I agree with most, lets play the Women's games at York they deserve a stand alone game

[JM2010]

8 minutes ago, crashmon said:

My guess is that they had already pencilled in England v Combined nations at warrington for next year even before the world cup, so all they have done is switch to France instead of Combined nations, and added the women as an afterthought.

But I agree with most, lets play the Women's games at York they deserve a stand alone game

Maybe they could arrange a couple more games for the women as stand alone events as well as the double header. Keep them playing and in the limelight 

Are there any plans for a women's tournament at the end of the year?