Featherstone - Boom or Bust by the looks of it

[Monkeymagic22]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Comparisons with football are moot because we’re moving away from straight P&R towards an exclusionary system based on a grading system.

Fev are located in a pit village/tiny town near Pontefract and will be left further behind in the IMG era as they are not (and never will be) capable of being a sustainably competitive Super League club.

If you don’t believe me, watch how they go in 2024 if promoted. Truth can be painful.

I’d suggest that Fev would achieve similar crowds to Wakefield if in SL. The problem is, that the existing clubs have had years and years of Sky money to build infrastructure and have been able to run academies etc. 

Regarding, licensing, this was tried before and failed. Too many meaningless matches, plus the loss of incentive for clubs outside of SL. I just can’t understand why we can’t keep things as they are, and fair enough promoted teams might struggle, but given they get a parachute payment, it allows a club such as Fev, to improve over a number of years, even if we get relegated.

[Man of Kent]

5 minutes ago, Monkeymagic22 said:

I’d suggest that Fev would achieve similar crowds to Wakefield if in SL. The problem is, that the existing clubs have had years and years of Sky money to build infrastructure and have been able to run academies etc. 

Regarding, licensing, this was tried before and failed. Too many meaningless matches, plus the loss of incentive for clubs outside of SL. I just can’t understand why we can’t keep things as they are, and fair enough promoted teams might struggle, but given they get a parachute payment, it allows a club such as Fev, to improve over a number of years, even if we get relegated.

(Leaving aside Wakefield dwarfs Featherstone) Fev Rovers have thus far been unable to get to Super League under your chosen system. I suggest that's because due to its size as a blink-and-you-miss-it village/small town, they haven't been sufficiently competitive. 

And even now when they finally look like being competitive to get there, the chairman is whinging about the small crowds being unsustainable. These are the facts of the matter.

 

[David Dockhouse Host]

11 hours ago, Fevrover said:

 For what would be nothing more then friendlies ? 

They could become a cat one team and join SL or what ever it will be called.

It's not a closed shop.

 

 

 

[Fevrover]

Just now, David Dockhouse Host said:

They could become a cat one team and join SL or what ever it will be called.

It's not a closed shop.

 

 

 

Good . 

[Fevrover]

35 minutes ago, Chris Taylor said:

Take a look at the locations of each rugby league club and they are based in an industrial town - that's how the game was built up and grew. 

Are you suggesting that they are all in a similar position to Featherstone or are you just focussing on Featherstone because you don't like them?

That's literally the bottom line - literally!

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said:

Am I still correct in thinking that there will still be P&R if the team at the top of championship can replace a team of the same category or lower in SL... if so how does it  become a closed shop?

Speak to @Tommygilfhe will explain to you how each of IMG's 'B' & 'C' categories are to be sub-divided in each section to better, average or worse in his words just like the marking when taking exams, so in effect between the top of the 'B's to bottom of the 'C's there will be multiple gradings, effectively it may not just be as simple as a 'B' at the bottom of SL being interchangeable with a 'B' at the top of the Championship.

[David Shepherd]

34 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

(Leaving aside Wakefield dwarfs Featherstone) Fev Rovers have thus far been unable to get to Super League under your chosen system. I suggest that's because due to its size as a blink-and-you-miss-it village/small town, they haven't been sufficiently competitive. 

And even now when they finally look like being competitive to get there, the chairman is whinging about the small crowds being unsustainable. These are the facts of the matter.

 

*Point of order.  Wakefield is not a "big" city. The population of the city rather than the MDC is only about 80-90k. It's very much smaller than most mid to large size towns like Huddersfield for example. It's only a city because it had a cathedral at the right moment in history.

If you add in Featherstone's natural and traditional catchment (most of Ponte, Knottingley, 1/2 of Normy, Hemsworth, SESKU, Ackworth etc), you'll find their potential is similar.

Edited February 28, 2023 by David Shepherd

[The Phantom Horseman]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

 

Fev are located in a pit village/tiny town near Pontefract and will be left further behind in the IMG era as they are not (and never will be) capable of being a sustainably competitive Super League club.

If you don’t believe me, watch how they go in 2024 if promoted. Truth can be painful.

Once again you are showing you have little understanding of Featherstone Rovers' situation I'm afraid.

I too think Fev might struggle in 2024 if they are promoted (that's a long way off btw, but that's another story).

But it's nothing to do with being a sustainably competitive SL club. indeed, the fact that Fev own their own ground, have numerous income streams, and are bringing in huge numbers in terms of sponsorship, means they are probably far more sustainably competitive long-term than many established SL clubs.

But the reason they - or whoever is promoted - might struggle is the same reason most other promoted clubs have struggled - they will have been promoted with a squad assembled from around 200k central funding plus whatever they were able to raise themselves. By the time they are promoted, most of the better players will have signed contracts with other SL clubs - indeed, they might find that some of their own players have been signed by SL clubs -  and it will be very difficult to assemble a squad to survive that first year.

 

[Man of Kent]

20 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

That's literally the bottom line - literally!

I’ve got nothing against Fev Rovers, I’m just part of the reality-based community that can see through the delusion of blaming obvious competitive disadvantage on ‘Sooper Greed’ etc.

[GUBRATS]

29 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

They could become a cat one team and join SL or what ever it will be called.

It's not a closed shop.

 

 

 

From this post I'd assume you've seen the criteria , maybe you could let us into the details ?

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

But the reason they - or whoever is promoted - might struggle is the same reason most other promoted clubs have struggled - they will have been promoted with a squad assembled from around 200k central funding plus whatever they were able to raise themselves. By the time they are promoted, most of the better players will have signed contracts with other SL clubs - indeed, they might find that some of their own players have been signed by SL clubs -  and it will be very difficult to assemble a squad to survive that first year.

 

Agreed, and that's why I  welcome the move towards participation in Super League being based on commercial factors. Money talks.

[GUBRATS]

7 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I’ve got nothing against Fev Rovers, I’m just part of the reality-based community that can see through the delusion of blaming obvious competitive disadvantage on ‘Sooper Greed’ etc.

You might see the ' reality ' of the situation , but not the ' reality ' of human nature and culture in the UK 

You cite Australia's second tiers as examples of a workable model , tell me , how many fans watch them ? , Including their finals ? , And how are they funded ? 

[The Phantom Horseman]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

Agreed, and that's why I  welcome the move towards participation in Super League being based on commercial factors. Money talks.

Such as the team able to create most revenue, bring in most sponsorship etc? And leave out the commercially struggling teams such as Toulouse and London, neither of whom have even been able to find a main jersey sponsor this season. Right?

[Monkeymagic22]

12 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Once again you are showing you have little understanding of Featherstone Rovers' situation I'm afraid.

I too think Fev might struggle in 2024 if they are promoted (that's a long way off btw, but that's another story).

But it's nothing to do with being a sustainably competitive SL club. indeed, the fact that Fev own their own ground, have numerous income streams, and are bringing in huge numbers in terms of sponsorship, means they are probably far more sustainably competitive long-term than many established SL clubs.

But the reason they - or whoever is promoted - might struggle is the same reason most other promoted clubs have struggled - they will have been promoted with a squad assembled from around 200k central funding plus whatever they were able to raise themselves. By the time they are promoted, most of the better players will have signed contracts with other SL clubs - indeed, they might find that some of their own players have been signed by SL clubs -  and it will be very difficult to assemble a squad to survive that first year.

 

I think there’s a decent argument, that due to the built in disadvantages that promoted clubs should have had a one year exemption from relegation. However, it’s a mute point, now that the new system is coming in.

[Man of Kent]

Just now, The Phantom Horseman said:

Such as the team able to create most revenue, bring in most sponsorship etc? And leave out the commercially struggling teams such as Toulouse and London, neither of whom have even been able to find a main jersey sponsor this season. Right?

More whataboutery, chief. We're talking about Fev.

I'll think you'll struggle in the IMG era. The road to obtaining grade A status will be long.

[RP London]

11 hours ago, Chris Taylor said:

What's the point of a club like Featherstone if excluded from Super League?

Why is that even a question? Featherstone, like many other clubs have rich-history in the sport and has an awful lot of things that it can and should be proud of - especially within the community roots.

What's the point of any team/competition below Super League? That is a far better question.

It becomes meaningless and just a bunch of glorified friendlies. The interest in the competition decreases, fans interest lessens and commercial opportunities also decrease - is that what the game is looking for?

Perhaps it may mean Super League clubs will look at the longer-term future a little more, but going on past evidence from the licensing period, I would suggest not.

What Format Would You Suggest?

All clubs within the game provide some sort of value and shouldn't be devalued based on crowds or where they are based. 

The game needs to grow, both at club and international level and to do that quite simply it needs to increase the number of clubs in the top division over a period of time without relegating a team - so by end of 4 seasons times there would be 16 teams in the top division. Then at this point relegation should be re-introduced on the basis of 1-up 1-down. 

This would tie in with IMG's proposal of removing magic weekend, loop fixtures, etc.

What if Featherstone missed out on Super League?

So be-it, if this is done by results on the pitch.

Should There Be Minimum Standards

Absolutely, each and every club should be aiming to improve standards, growing different types of income. 

Can that happen with Promotion and Relegation?

Of course it can, it happens in football and other sports in England - it just requires strong leadership and clubs commit too it.

Other discussion in this thread

 Based on attendance, let's look at the decline of crowds in the top tier before criticising a team that has grown it's average attendance over the last 15 to 20 years.

These top-tier super teams are the ones to poke at before Featherstone. How many teams in that list has seen their average crowds decrease? Far too many! 

But has anybody actually tried to understand why they have decreased? What actually works? How many teams actually engage with their supporters and understand what they enjoy/not enjoy about there experience.

Does anybody poke fun at Bournemouth in the premier league for having an average attendance of 11k? No. 

To be fair people do poke fun at Bournemouth on a regular basis if you look at similar places to this. Its just that when you are a multibillion pound behemoth like the Premier League that bases most of its income off the top 6-8 teams (in terms of international rights and appeal) then those below are interchangeable.. if we ever get to that level then great but its very rare!

What you suggest, increasing the size of Super League is exactly what IMG are wanting to do, they just want to do it when all clubs are ready to grow.. They have said from the start if there were 14 CAT A clubs then thats how big Super League would be. Its just a different way of going about it. Clubs will know exactly what they need to aim for so it should be transparent. Its not a closed shop, and you can see how it works in practice with the EuroBasket that they run. 

One thing I would like to know is on this point.

Quote

Can that happen with Promotion and Relegation?

Of course it can, it happens in football and other sports in England - it just requires strong leadership and clubs commit too it.

Which other sport in England has P&R like football and which has managed to develop these strong clubs. Honestly I cannot think of any but happy to be wrong so any example would be much appreciated.

I don't disagree that a closed shop is a bad way to go necessarily but i don't think that is quite what we are heading for in the way we have in the past. But I cannot for the life of me think of an example of straight P&R working outside of football... I don't want to get into a P&R v Closed Shop debate again, but just interested by your answer, it keeps getting put out there but no one seems to actually come up with an example, so interested to hear one.

(Eagles fan, so hardly likely to be on the inside!)

Edited February 28, 2023 by RP London

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Well, I have offered my solution. Meaningful competition with trophies (and Challenge Cup games). It won’t please everyone, I accept that. 

I would not go to the pro games any more if my team was in a dead end street of the 2nd tier with no promotion, I have been there and done that and have no intention whatsoever of having a repeat visit, in fact if they were in a closed shop top tier and they were a middling to bottom team who's season if effectively over with half to a third of it still to go and upcoming fixtures were of no consequence in that it did not matter if they won or lost I would still not go, no way would I purchase a season ticket. I have any number of NCL and North West Mens clubs in close proximity to where I live, including two NCL clubs within a mile of my front door, and that is not even including junior and youth levels, there would be no short fall of obtaining my regular RL fix during the season.

11 hours ago, Daft old hooker said:

Just shows how little you know about rugby if we move to a closed shop Super League again there won’t be a game outside it.

My feelings entirely, interest would wane dramatically, and what these people who suggest a closed shop are missing is it won't take a long time to become detrimental to SL, If the focal point of the pro club vanishes because of lack of interest the community game will suffer hence the present 'stuttering' conveyor belt that produces pro player's will become slower and slower.

[The Phantom Horseman]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

More whataboutery, chief. We're talking about Fev.

I'll think you'll struggle in the IMG era. The road to obtaining grade A status will be long.

No, not whataboutery, just checking you are applying the same rules to other potential SL candidates as you are to Fev. Because if you want to apply the same rules to other teams as you do to Fev, you're going to have about a 4-team SL.

Fev are nowhere near Grade A status, nor are most clubs barring about 4.

[bigbaldnmad]

Correct me if I am wrong, are the IMG proposals, or the first main bit f them, not being released until 13th March, and then up for approval after that?

So really you are arguing about what might be, it is not known yet.

I already understand that there are different levels of Cat B & C.

If it was already clear cut that Featherstone wouldn't get in, would someone as in tune as Mark Campbell still be pushing towards SL?

 

[David Shepherd]

4 minutes ago, bigbaldnmad said:

Correct me if I am wrong, are the IMG proposals, or the first main bit f them, not being released until 13th March, and then up for approval after that?

So really you are arguing about what might be, it is not known yet.

I already understand that there are different levels of Cat B & C.

If it was already clear cut that Featherstone wouldn't get in, would someone as in tune as Mark Campbell still be pushing towards SL?

 

History tells us that the process is likely to be corrupt. Incumbency was always the most important metric last time. 

[bigbaldnmad]

Its also worth remembering that SL has been in existence for over 20% of the existence of RL, yet they still cant get it right.

[Man of Kent]

Just now, The Phantom Horseman said:

Fev are nowhere near Grade A status, nor are most clubs barring about 4.

But that's not really true, is it.

Leeds, Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Hull FC, Hull KR and Catalans are there or thereabouts already.

The path is shorter for Huddersfield, Salford, Castleford, Leigh and Wakefield than for Fev. That's 12.

Then there's Widnes, Bradford, York, Toulouse and London, all of who may have certain commercial advantages in their favour over Fev for obtaining an A grade (though not any time soon, granted).  

[Harry Stottle]

51 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

They could become a cat one team and join SL or what ever it will be called.

It's not a closed shop.

 

 

 

That road will be massively long David and the odds are stacked against any Championship club with 12 teams already in SL theoretically ahead in the grading system and also the grading of the Championship clubs, at least in a straight forward on the field P&R scenario any Championship team has much the shorter odds of 14 to 1 to gain promotion.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

History tells us that the process is likely to be corrupt. Incumbency was always the most important metric last time. 

It has been since SLs inception , quite ridiculous that even then there was criteria applied to teams to enter SL , that did not apply to teams already in SL , and then seemingly those clubs being exempt from that criteria if relegated 

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

But that's not really true, is it.

Leeds, Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Hull FC, Hull KR and Catalans are there or thereabouts already.

The path is shorter for Huddersfield, Salford, Castleford, Leigh and Wakefield than for Fev. That's 12.

Then there's Widnes, Bradford, York, Toulouse and London, all of who may have certain commercial advantages in their favour over Fev for obtaining an A grade (though not any time soon, granted).  

Any chance you could answer my question about the crowds and financing of the Aussie lower tiers ?