Attendance thread

[gingerjon]

7 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

I'll be happy if the attendance beats 2019, which was 62,717, seen as that was the last one at Wembley that wasn't affected by other factors, and thus reverse the decline of final attendances from the few years previous to that. 

As I said, absolutely everything is in place that has been suggested as necessary to boost profile and attendance.

If it doesn't comfortably beat the 2019 crowd then the sport is in trouble.

[Eddie]

7 hours ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

I JUST POSTED THIS LINK on another thread about IMG, but it may be worthy of inclusion here.

Shows how GOING TO THE GAME is becoming less important as the generations pass, which could be a long-term headache for all sports, but especially ones like ours that sometimes struggles. Gen Z & Millennials are the issue here. Baby boomers like me still prefer going to the game (I went to the NZ v Philippines football the other night. Fantastic atmosphere), but it would seem the 20-40yr old age group are the ones who are really embracing the other media channels to watch their sports

I don’t think that’s the case in football (certainly seems like there’s as many people under 40 as there always was, and there’s a lot more kids at the match than there was in the 80s for example), but yes agreed other sports may be struggling to attract a younger audience to live sport. Sadly RL, with some notable exceptions, still seems to subscribe to the build it and they will come philosophy. 

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

As I said, absolutely everything is in place that has been suggested as necessary to boost profile and attendance.

If it doesn't comfortably beat the 2019 crowd then the sport is in trouble.

To be fair one is the teams is from a town of 41,000 people surrounded by bigger RL and football clubs, and the other isn’t is big as either of the 2019 finalists, so while I agree this is the most exciting cup final for a long time there’s no reason for it to comfortably beat the 2019 attendance. I hope it does mind you. 

[gingerjon]

30 minutes ago, Eddie said:

To be fair one is the teams is from a town of 41,000 people surrounded by bigger RL and football clubs

It has been said, repeatedly, that the way to boost crowds, profile etc is by having new teams in the final. It's also been said we need a decent but not too long gap between the semis and the final. And that tickets should be available reasonably early. *And* the RFL's approach (not mine but it's their way of increasing attendance) is by having three finals in one day and, they've got the best possible outcome for that: six different teams.

So we have absolutely everything that has been said is needed.

If, at the end of all that, it doesn't move the needle towards increased numbers then we're a bit stuck.

[Archie Gordon]

Looking at the RFL, Leigh and HKR ticket sites, there's less than 10k left for sale out of the ~70k being sold. The bottom two tiers look pretty much full. But my experience of UK RL events is that 'sold out' areas can contain large banks of empty seats come match day. I really hope not this time. Get your tickets!

[cookey]

I think the attendance will be higher for Leigh v Hull KR, than it would have been for Wigan v  Saints. Really cant understand why people believe Leigh/ KR would throw up a poor attendance.

I would hope for a genuine attendance of around 70,000, no idea what figure they will actually announce.

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Looking at the RFL, Leigh and HKR ticket sites, there's less than 10k left for sale out of the ~70k being sold. The bottom two tiers look pretty much full. But my experience of UK RL events is that 'sold out' areas can contain large banks of empty seats come match day. I really hope not this time. Get your tickets!

We should get 70,000+, really, shouldn't we?

It's a genuinely exciting final and, full disclosure, the first one I've been sad about missing for a while. We should see a rise in neutrals alongside two fanbases who don't get to make too many trips to finals.

(But if you do find yourself in Hastings rather than London, you'll be sure of a treat as Tiny Ginger is the Wizard of Oz in the Wizard of Oz at the White Rock. Turns out, I can't actually miss that.)

[Dave T]

There has to be some hope that we can hit the 70k mark this year. 

If we look back at the 2019 final, the following from Wire was really poor, visibly massively down on the years we took 25 to 30k. I would expect that out of the 62k that year, maybe 40k tops were from the two finalists. I'd expect that number to be comfortably beaten by Leigh and KR fans. 

I suppose the challenge is around neutrals and fans of the other finals. Times are tough, and whether people are as enthused to spend hundreds of quid in the current climate is yet to be seen. 

But I'm hopeful that for the first time in a while we could see an increase. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

53 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It has been said, repeatedly, that the way to boost crowds, profile etc is by having new teams in the final. It's also been said we need a decent but not too long gap between the semis and the final. And that tickets should be available reasonably early. *And* the RFL's approach (not mine but it's their way of increasing attendance) is by having three finals in one day and, they've got the best possible outcome for that: six different teams.

So we have absolutely everything that has been said is needed.

If, at the end of all that, it doesn't move the needle towards increased numbers then we're a bit stuck.

Well, apart from actually marketing it to neutrals and event buyers, especially in London, in the 2 months before the final. Just that minor detail!

The contrast with how the RFU approach things is stark. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Well, apart from actually marketing it to neutrals and event buyers, especially in London, in the 2 months before the final. Just that minor detail!

The contrast with how the RFU approach things is stark. 

One thing I would say is that us marketing heavily in London is more challenging than the RFU marketing in London where they already have a heavy presence. 

I don't disagree with your point that we need to work harder in the capital, but we are a really odd, quirky sport when you think about it to London markets. 

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Well, apart from actually marketing it to neutrals and event buyers, especially in London, in the 2 months before the final. Just that minor detail!

I am merely observing that we have everything that has been said to be needed.

(I've been getting a fair few ads on the socials for the past couple of weeks. I'm not convinced they're the most dynamic but they are there.)

[sweaty craiq]

imo sales will slow down this coming week - leaving the cheaper seats available - this is what you market to RL clubs within a 50mile radius, even if that deal is allowing them to keep all the revenue to aid there growth either financial or awareness. Take a section or four not on sale and give it away with caveats - could Skolars market 2000 free seats to North London locals, Could Broncos do 5000? Schools and amateur clubs 2000 more - the media see a 78000 gate and wow the CCF is an event again

[Archie Gordon]

29 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We should get 70,000+, really, shouldn't we?

...

I really don't know. Bums on seats, tickets sold, and announced attendances seem to vary quite a bit at CCFs. I expect an official attendance of 65k+ which would comfortably beat my expectations if you'd asked me back in January. But I have very low confidence in my forecast due to the unreliability of info currently available. If they start opening up extra sections of the top tier, that will be the sign we're going big this year.

Good luck to TG!

[Archie Gordon]

5 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

imo sales will slow down this coming week - leaving the cheaper seats available - this is what you market to RL clubs within a 50mile radius, even if that deal is allowing them to keep all the revenue to aid there growth either financial or awareness. Take a section or four not on sale and give it away with caveats - could Skolars market 2000 free seats to North London locals, Could Broncos do 5000? Schools and amateur clubs 2000 more - the media see a 78000 gate and wow the CCF is an event again

That would need to have been marketed all year - it hasn't happened. That said, several London & SE clubs are taking between 10-50 - as they usually do. There's also a Primary RL festival going on in the morning and parents and players get really cheap tickets in the top tier.

Don't want to mention RU but some of our young lads are off to Twickenham instead ... When asked why, they said because they'd bought tickets ages ago and didn't even know about Wembley. 

[Toby Chopra]

35 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There has to be some hope that we can hit the 70k mark this year. 

If we look back at the 2019 final, the following from Wire was really poor, visibly massively down on the years we took 25 to 30k. I would expect that out of the 62k that year, maybe 40k tops were from the two finalists. I'd expect that number to be comfortably beaten by Leigh and KR fans. 

I suppose the challenge is around neutrals and fans of the other finals. Times are tough, and whether people are as enthused to spend hundreds of quid in the current climate is yet to be seen. 

But I'm hopeful that for the first time in a while we could see an increase. 

I hope you're right Dave, but I think the finalists comfortably beating 40k is a pretty tough ask. In the end they don't have huge fanbases, even latent ones. Neither get close to attracting 20k to their biggest derby games, I think, unlike the "big" clubs 

Everyone in the game is excited by the final, especially on the back of Leigh's great year, and the town seems to be getting behind them for a once in a generation event. But I still think 40k between them would be a good turnout.

I'm not sure how many heartland RL neutrals will actually make the trip, as opposed to watching on TV. And the good backstory of the finalists, particularly Leigh, doesn't particularly speak to the southeast market.

If we get up to 65k with these teams, in the current circumstances, I think that is creditable, and shows the CCF has stabilized, and should stick with Wembley. That'll do for me.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

One thing I would say is that us marketing heavily in London is more challenging than the RFU marketing in London where they already have a heavy presence. 

I don't disagree with your point that we need to work harder in the capital, but we are a really odd, quirky sport when you think about it to London markets. 

Any time there is a non-premium event at Twickenham (that wouldn't sell out "organically"), it is plastered with Tube ads, old media, geo-targeted online display and socials with good remarketing strategy in play. From the Premiership final, to Women's rugby, through to Barbarians fixtures that don't have a natural audience but are sold as a great day out. In my lifetime we've done that properly once, with the "Charriots Ofiah" campaign before an Ashes Test at Wembley I think. Once! To the RFU it's the default plan. 

At an average ticket price of £30 and with 20,000 seats (minimum) of excess capacity we won't sell otherwise then no matter what then there's a revenue target of £600k to chase. If you gave me £200k to play with it would be transformational, I'd bet on the ROI. 

We're in the capacity-utilisation and yield business, and should run the business as if we were. 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Hull Kingston Bronco
Typo

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

12 hours ago, Eddie said:

Anyone care to guess the Cup Final attendance? I’m going 62k - 30k HKR, 20k Leigh and 12k neutrals. 

69874, followed by a 196 page thread on how 'the gaps at the top showed that it was a pack of lies'/ 'using the RU multiplier'(delete conspiracy theory of your choice).

[Dave T]

52 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I hope you're right Dave, but I think the finalists comfortably beating 40k is a pretty tough ask. In the end they don't have huge fanbases, even latent ones. Neither get close to attracting 20k to their biggest derby games, I think, unlike the "big" clubs 

Everyone in the game is excited by the final, especially on the back of Leigh's great year, and the town seems to be getting behind them for a once in a generation event. But I still think 40k between them would be a good turnout.

I'm not sure how many heartland RL neutrals will actually make the trip, as opposed to watching on TV. And the good backstory of the finalists, particularly Leigh, doesn't particularly speak to the southeast market.

If we get up to 65k with these teams, in the current circumstances, I think that is creditable, and shows the CCF has stabilized, and should stick with Wembley. That'll do for me.

My maths was out mate.

When I look back to the Saints v Wire game, I expect the finalists took around 30 to 35k between them 

Adjust all the numbers accordingly

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Any time there is a non-premium event at Twickenham (that wouldn't sell out "organically"), it is plastered with Tube ads, old media, geo-targeted online display and socials with good remarketing strategy in play. From the Premiership final, to Women's rugby, through to Barbarians fixtures that don't have a natural audience but are sold as a great day out. In my lifetime we've done that properly once, with the "Charriots Ofiah" campaign before an Ashes Test at Wembley I think. Once! To the RFU it's the default plan. 

At an average ticket price of £30 and with 20,000 seats (minimum) of excess capacity we won't sell otherwise then no matter what then there's a revenue target of £600k to chase. If you gave me £200k to play with it would be transformational, I'd bet on the ROI. 

We're in the capacity-utilisation and yield business, and should run the business as if we were. 

 

I get that, and I absolutely agree, but I just don't see a silver bullet here in London. Comparing to rugby at Twickenham is a different Proposition. 

International RL is where the huge value is to be had. But as we know, we haven't bothered to go to London this year. 

 

[Jughead]

If the game gets over 60k that’s a massive win. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I get that, and I absolutely agree, but I just don't see a silver bullet here in London. Comparing to rugby at Twickenham is a different Proposition. 

International RL is where the huge value is to be had. But as we know, we haven't bothered to go to London this year. 

 

I agree its not the silver bullet, and its harder to sell RL than RU down here, but it a diverse audience with no geographic travel barrier so a more realistic new one to sell "experience" tickets to. 

We agree on the international game though. That is every single challenger sport's "gateway drug", and not having a game this autumn in London - the world's single largest sporting marketplace, let alone Britain's - is madness. But not surprising. 

[Dave T]

56 minutes ago, Jughead said:

If the game gets over 60k that’s a massive win. 

I don't think it is. If it gets below 60k it's a failure. 

60k is accaptable in current context, 65k half decent and 70k plus a success. 

[Jughead]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't think it is. If it gets below 60k it's a failure. 

60k is accaptable in current context, 65k half decent and 70k plus a success. 

We’ve had one 60k attendance in the past few years (discounting ‘21 for obvious reasons), since Club Wembley seats weren’t used to pad out attendances. 60k would be a massive uplift from last year, which had the new stadium factor that didn’t actually seem to make any effect on the crowd on the day. 

60k+ would be a success having had one 60+ crowd in the past four finals*. 
 

*with no covid restrictions. 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Jughead said:

We’ve had one 60k attendance in the past few years (discounting ‘21 for obvious reasons), since Club Wembley seats weren’t used to pad out attendances. 60k would be a massive uplift from last year, which had the new stadium factor that didn’t actually seem to make any effect on the crowd on the day. 

60k+ would be a success having had one 60+ crowd in the past four finals*. 
 

*with no covid restrictions. 

No Wembley final between two English teams has had a crowd lower than 60k since 1946.

We've only dropped below that for Catalans v Wire.

[Jughead]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

No Wembley final between two English teams has had a crowd lower than 60k since 1946.

We've only dropped below that for Catalans v Wire.

Do we then say we should be looking for crowds in the 80’s then because that’s what we once used to get?

Recent history suggests the crowd is dropping. 60k+ would be a phenomenal uplift based on last year.