Postcode Lottery - who’s going down?

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said:

So you don't really have an argument as to why other than you see it as weakening the competition in some way. Interesting that you would rather have full time players that are unlikely to ever play to a good standard that make up the numbers just so we can say the top level is totally full time but would not have say the top 10% or so of part time players playing at the top level even though it would raise standards. 

It is interesting, because I know for a fact that no TV company would pay for a full time sports league that had part time clubs in it. 

They'd instantly drop their investment levels, because "hey, you can just be as good as part timers right?" Standards would drop, off field activities and investments would collapse and any young man wanting to make a living from the sport would either disappear to the NRL in their teens or find themselves in a Union academy.

But obviously, those standards would be "raised".

[GUBRATS]

26 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Context. I'm not saying the league should be part time, clearly.

"It's also just not true and is backed up by no evidence." So you can't be sure it's not true then. 

There is 30 years of evidence yet we now find ourselves in this IMG situation so there really can't be that much evidence of improvement otherwise we wouldn't need yet another change would we? Is the product on the field really that much better? In my opinion its pretty stale and it's only this year that Leigh have put the cat amongst the pigeons and again the irony is that it's a promoted team that has done this and not one that has had the safety net of nearly 2m in central funding each year.

Just another one I recall , back in 2003 , the first ' Salford ' year as I refer to it , we played Salford 7 times in total that year , drew the first game but got progressively worse against them as the season went on , in preparation for the hopeful GF we went full time for the last month of the season , the players giving up jobs or getting releases for a month ( bearing in mind many players worked for club sponsors which is common within the sport ) 

Did it work ? , No , I questioned it at the time , my worry being that the players would overtrain so as not to feel guilty as their ' normal ' wages were being covered by sponsors and directors and would end up being fatigued by the time the GF came round 

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Context. I'm not saying the league should be part time, clearly.

"It's also just not true and is backed up by no evidence." So you can't be sure it's not true then. 

There is 30 years of evidence yet we now find ourselves in this IMG situation so there really can't be that much evidence of improvement otherwise we wouldn't need yet another change would we? Is the product on the field really that much better? In my opinion its pretty stale and it's only this year that Leigh have put the cat amongst the pigeons and again the irony is that it's a promoted team that has done this and not one that has had the safety net of nearly 2m in central funding each year.

Yes we are talking about a team, that is clear.

I can be sure its not true because there is 30+ years of evidence saying the opposite. You literally had your answer already in my reply that you quoted.

Your last paragraph in reply is irrelevant to the argument you make about a team comprised of the best part time players raising standards v a full time team.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

Yes we are talking about a team, that is clear.

I can be sure its not true because there is 30+ years of evidence saying the opposite. You literally had your answer already in my reply that you quoted.

Your last paragraph in reply is irrelevant to the argument you make about a team comprised of the best part time players raising standards v a full time team.

There's 30 years of evidence that FT teams are generally* 'better' than PT teams containing a smattering of the best PT players, not PT teams composed of the best PT players.

*Sheffield (2016) and Newcastle (2022) being obvious exceptions

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

There's 30 years of evidence that FT teams are generally* 'better' than PT teams containing a smattering of the best PT players, not PT teams composed of the best PT players.

*Sheffield (2016) and Newcastle (2022) being obvious exceptions

Yeah that's why since P/R has been reintroduced every single team that has gone up has been FT...

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Yeah that's why since P/R has been reintroduced every single team that has gone up has been FT...

I think you're missing his point , lots of those clubs have come back down despite being FT , quite often losing some very good PT players who weren't willing to give up their jobs , he is suggesting they could recruit ALL the best PT players from the Championship , in theory you could have quite a big squad , which has been the Achilles Heel of promoted squads in the past , you would need a reserve team to keep them all fit 

Interesting concept 

[Damien]

28 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I think you're missing his point , lots of those clubs have come back down despite being FT , quite often losing some very good PT players who weren't willing to give up their jobs , he is suggesting they could recruit ALL the best PT players from the Championship , in theory you could have quite a big squad , which has been the Achilles Heel of promoted squads in the past , you would need a reserve team to keep them all fit 

Interesting concept 

As the salary cap only affects the top 25 players there is nothing stopping a team having a big squad as it is if they choose to.

[GUBRATS]

24 minutes ago, Damien said:

As the salary cap only affects the top 25 players there is nothing stopping a team having a big squad as it is if they choose to.

 

25 minutes ago, Damien said:

As the salary cap only affects the top 25 players there is nothing stopping a team having a big squad as it is if they choose to.

No mention of the salary cap in my post 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

No mention of the salary cap in my post 

I never said there was. I was merely pointing out that there is nothing at the moment stopping teams having larger squads padded out with lower paid players if they so desire or deemed it worthwhile.

[Tommygilf]

59 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I think you're missing his point , lots of those clubs have come back down despite being FT , quite often losing some very good PT players who weren't willing to give up their jobs , he is suggesting they could recruit ALL the best PT players from the Championship , in theory you could have quite a big squad , which has been the Achilles Heel of promoted squads in the past , you would need a reserve team to keep them all fit 

Interesting concept 

And lots haven't...

You could recruit all the best part time players, sure. You still wouldn't be good enough for a full super league season with that team and would rightly either recruit some pros and try stay up, or not go up at all (also a valid thing to do).

As you have stated several times previously, some clubs (and club assets) only work financially in the FT super league environment. Others would be crippled for a decade by having to go to that level. It isn't for everyone.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I never said there was. I was merely pointing out that there is nothing at the moment stopping teams having larger squads padded out with lower paid players if they so desire or deemed it worthwhile.

Which of course, the vast vast majority do not.

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

I never said there was. I was merely pointing out that there is nothing at the moment stopping teams having larger squads padded out with lower paid players if they so desire or deemed it worthwhile.

Again , that's potentially the point , it's attracting the best , be they FT or PT which is the difficulty , especially if you can't pad out the reserves with senior academy players 

[Liverpool Rover]

On 08/07/2023 at 20:17, Anita Bath said:

If there was no relegation this year do you think we would have seen the results we have had this weekend, trinity beating leeds and huddersfield winning at Catalans? No, those teams would have been coasting with nothing to play for.

I see this a lot but how do we know? These are professional sportsmen so going out to win every game should be natural to them. If there was no relegation anymore teams should be wary of getting a reputation for coasting and having a lack of ambition as no one would want to join them, crowds would drop, broadcasters wouldn't want to choose their games so visibility drops and sponsorship will suffer. Being honest if there are teams who need relegation for something to play for rather than because they want to try to be the best should have questions about whether they should be in Super League at all.

[The Blues Ox]

9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah that's why since P/R has been reintroduced every single team that has gone up has been FT...

How has that worked out?

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

How has that worked out?

Far better than if any of them had been full of part timers, who they all pretty comfortably beat on the way up. 

[Anita Bath]

7 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

I see this a lot but how do we know? These are professional sportsmen so going out to win every game should be natural to them. If there was no relegation anymore teams should be wary of getting a reputation for coasting and having a lack of ambition as no one would want to join them, crowds would drop, broadcasters wouldn't want to choose their games so visibility drops and sponsorship will suffer. Being honest if there are teams who need relegation for something to play for rather than because they want to try to be the best should have questions about whether they should be in Super League at all.

Take a look at some of the late season games in North American sports ( nhl, baseball, basketball) ….once play offs out of the question.

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

Take a look at some of the late season games in North American sports ( nhl, baseball, basketball) ….once play offs out of the question.

No idea about basketball but, free from the worries of relegation, teams not in play off contention tend to use the final few weeks to blood players from the minor leagues so they have game time experience.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

No idea about basketball but, free from the worries of relegation, teams not in play off contention tend to use the final few weeks to blood players from the minor leagues so they have game time experience.

Clearly that kind of approach should bring longer term rewards. But at the same time there are pitfalls to that. 

If we end up in a place where all games are televised the ultra-critical RL fans and media will likely slate games with a post/pre-season feel. 

[The Masked Poster]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned so apologies if so. But when Whitehaven reached their SL playoff final in 2004(?) there was talk afterwards that many of the players hearts weren't truly in it. Not because they were cheating or anything but because many of them had pretty decent jobs anyway and getting to SL meant choosing between going full time (which may have been brief) or staying with their career.

Their was no indication that this was really true but it certainly would have made sense.

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, The Masked Poster said:

Not sure if this has already been mentioned so apologies if so. But when Whitehaven reached their SL playoff final in 2004(?) there was talk afterwards that many of the players hearts weren't truly in it. Not because they were cheating or anything but because many of them had pretty decent jobs anyway and getting to SL meant choosing between going full time (which may have been brief) or staying with their career.

Their was no indication that this was really true but it certainly would have made sense.

Its no surprise, there is very little money in SL for players wages and certainly not enough so that the best part time players could earn more by giving up their job to become full time. 

This is part of the reasoning of my argument surrounding having the best part time players in a team rather than go with the worst full time players like most promoted teams have to do. I'm actually pretty confident that a team of the best part time players would comfortably finish clear of the bottom spot in SL if that scenario was ever to present itself.

[Cheadle Leyther]

2 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

Not sure if this has already been mentioned so apologies if so. But when Whitehaven reached their SL playoff final in 2004(?) there was talk afterwards that many of the players hearts weren't truly in it. Not because they were cheating or anything but because many of them had pretty decent jobs anyway and getting to SL meant choosing between going full time (which may have been brief) or staying with their career.

There was no indication that this was really true but it certainly would have made sense.

Whitehaven players heart’s not in it? You have got to be joking!! That match was one of the most exciting games l‘ve ever seen while watching Leigh. 16-16 at full time, we only won due to an inspired display from Neil Turley.

Also, it was great see to the most Haven fans backing the team, than I’d ever seen before, and they were very close to winning the match.

[bobbruce]

1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said:

Its no surprise, there is very little money in SL for players wages and certainly not enough so that the best part time players could earn more by giving up their job to become full time. 

This is part of the reasoning of my argument surrounding having the best part time players in a team rather than go with the worst full time players like most promoted teams have to do. I'm actually pretty confident that a team of the best part time players would comfortably finish clear of the bottom spot in SL if that scenario was ever to present itself.

You would probably have to name a squad of part time players from the championship but I don’t think they’d be anywhere near staying up in SL. It would pretty much be a waste of time for everyone involved which is why I don’t think it should happen/be allowed. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by bobbruce

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

No idea about basketball but, free from the worries of relegation, teams not in play off contention tend to use the final few weeks to blood players from the minor leagues so they have game time experience.

And SL clubs during the 2009-14 licencing period?

[Liverpool Rover]

3 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Take a look at some of the late season games in North American sports ( nhl, baseball, basketball) ….once play offs out of the question.

I watch the NFL and when teams are losing games after being knocked out of playoff contention it's because they are not very good, not because they have eased up.

[The Masked Poster]

33 minutes ago, Cheadle Leyther said:

Whitehaven players heart’s not in it? You have got to be joking!! That match was one of the most exciting games l‘ve ever seen while watching Leigh. 16-16 at full time, we only won due to an inspired display from Neil Turley.

Also, it was great see to the most Haven fans backing the team, than I’d ever seen before, and they were very close to winning the match.

I absolutely am not saying that was the case, I'm just repeating something that was put around at the time. And it made sense. Why give up a lucrative job for a gamble that might only last one season? And possibly for less money?