No Samoa tour in 2024

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I fully support a proper international strategy for the NH.

With the proposal from the IRL focussing mostly on the end of season period and if IMG/RFL go with a reduced fixture list then a summer based NH tournament could be held.  Start off by having 3 groups of 3 teams.  For example …. Group 1, England, France, Ireland.  Group 2, Scotland, Wales, Italy. Group 3, Serbia, Greece, Ukraine.  Have P&R between the leagues.

You could play the games over just 2 weekends if you have a game on a Saturday, Wednesday and Sunday.  Ok, two teams out of three will have a shorter turnaround between games but that is no different from a league team playing on a Sunday then a Thursday. Or over 3 weeks if time dictates.

Games to be played in one country of that group.  Flights or coach travel across Europe is relatively cheap.   Playing over 2 rather than 3 weekends keeps accomodation and subsistence costs down.

Pro’s and Con’s -

The game showcases an annual well planned international program that can grow over the years

A 3 team tournament with P&R gives a relevance to every game.

With the WC reducing to 10 teams an annual NH summer tournament gives teams that miss out on the WC the chance to keep playing regular meaningful international RL and improving their standards 

Offers countries the opportunity to drive standards in their national league 

Offers opportunity to bring in sponsorship IF there is a commitment for a long term annual tournament and for respective countries to offer sponsorship for the national team

Offers a pathway from local comps to be able to represent their country through regular international RL

Lifts the profile of the game in competing countries and could drive the expansion of the game and increase participation levels in competing countries.

England will easily win it! Of course they will to begin with.  The overall objective is to create a tournament where someday England will not win it.  That is real progress.  Using Englands superiority as a blocker to international games is criminal.  That superiority should be embraced and used to drive standards elsewhere.

The BIG problem with our sport, from administrators to supporters - and some on here - is that there is acute embarrassment; followed by a need to apologise; followed by a knee-jerk reaction if one team wins every time or there is a blow out score.  So what!  Promote the game, do not use England winning it as at excuse to hide.

Who will pay for it? Who knows, but there is more chance of gaining new sponsors to the game if we actually do something.

But Whitehead, Farnworth, Young will not be released by NRL clubs.  Is this really a good argument to stop a competition?  If you played an England international outside the so called heartlands then people being targeted to attend won’t give a toss.

Anyway, I will now enjoy the rest of my day off work.

They were proposing to introduce a nations league style format, as you suggest, for European RL. Covid and now the IRL seem to have scuppered momentum for that.

It certainly would seem a logical thing to do, and with some co-ordination could even be done wholly or partially mid season.

[Gomersall]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

To be fair I think Meninga has the international games best interests at heart. I just think there is a huge disconnect between what he would like and what the NRL allows.

The same Meninga who as Australia coach was trying to get PI players to commit to Queensland and by default Australia before the rules changed?

[sam4731]

I know in theory a Euro Champs or a NH 4N or whatever you want to call it is the sensible option but I just can't bear to watch England beat an NRL free Ireland/Scotland 84-0. It just feels so stale.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

I know in theory a Euro Champs or a NH 4N or whatever you want to call it is the sensible option but I just can't bear to watch England beat an NRL free Ireland/Scotland 84-0. It just feels so stale.

Ireland are actually mostly SL based nowadays anyway, 4 at the last World cup weren't playing for English clubs. 

Likeiwise Scotland had 5 from the SH in their squad.

[sam4731]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Ireland are actually mostly SL based nowadays anyway, 4 at the last World cup weren't playing for English clubs. 

Likeiwise Scotland had 5 from the SH in their squad.

Proportionally 4 or 5 players is quite a lot if they're all starting though. Also you could also say that the super league players they do have are second tier at best because they only play for them because they're not good enough for England.

[Mathius Hellwege]

2 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think Lebanon and Jamaica might be playing in the MEA and Americas championship. 

not in the years with dedicated 4N tournaments.....probably the cycle will be

WC

3/4 N (and 0-2 tours)

Regional Championship (and 0-2 tours)

3/4 N (and 0-2 tours)

WC

[Mathius Hellwege]

1 hour ago, theswanmcr said:

Why can’t we ever just make life clear and simple?

You would think the SH would have 2 x tri-nations - allowing one of the ‘top’ nations to tour over here each year.

Instead we have the Aus coach saying they will have a four nations next year… when it should be Samoa over here. Unless he’s talking rubbish of course?

exactly, I am also very disappointed as I have hoped that the NRL would allow every year one of the four to tout to England or to host them

[Adelaide Tiger]

35 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

I know in theory a Euro Champs or a NH 4N or whatever you want to call it is the sensible option but I just can't bear to watch England beat an NRL free Ireland/Scotland 84-0. It just feels so stale.

You have to start somewhere.  ATM the only way to create an NH mid season tournament is to accept that England will win comfortably and move on from there.  A mid season tournament would give Shaun Wane the opportunity to try out some fringe players prior to the more testing end of season internationals.  If France put out their strongest team then that will be a reasonable test.

[GeordieSaint]

If we are to do a European competition, it should start with a tri-nations concept:

Tier 1 - England, France & Wales

Tier 2 - Scotland, Ireland & Serbia

Tier 3 - Greece, Italy & Spain (e.g.)

… etc etc… Tier 4+ regionalised to reduce costs. 

Go from there. A nations league style competition.

[welshmagpie]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

The population of the Cook Islands is 17,459 spread over many islands, the largest having a population of 13,000. Surely that can’t be viable for an international tri series. 

I do now realise this holds little weight with 2026 now being World Cup year. I think Carlson made these comments around May time.

For what it’s worth if you ever come across him in the comment section of Rugby League fan pages on Facebook he’s well worth your attention. Mostly knowledgeable, often ridiculous. Once saw him complaining that Ireland had been ‘ranked above’ the cooks on an RL fan page and that Tonga’s 92-10 didn’t count as “they’re our island brothers!”

[yanto]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

If we are to do a European competition, it should start with a tri-nations concept:

Tier 1 - England, France & Wales

Tier 2 - Scotland, Ireland & Serbia

Tier 3 - Greece, Italy & Spain (e.g.)

… etc etc… Tier 4+ regionalised to reduce costs. 

Go from there. A nations league style competition.

Been going for years until covid hit.

Tier one has included Wales Ireland Scotland France Serbia Lebanon Russia Georgia Netherlands and Italy and ran in 2005,10,12,14,15 and 2018

Tier two has been played in 2007,08,09,10,11,13,15,18 and 2021 and had teams such as Serbia,Ukraine,Greece Russia,Spain,Italy,Germany,Malta,Norway,Latvia and Czech.

Tier three add Estonia and Turkey over the years and the only NH country missing is England.

 

Check out the competitions 

https://europeanrugbyleague.com/competitions/83

Edited August 7, 2023 by yanto

[Mathius Hellwege]

Of course the participation of England (or the Knights) is the big question

always? Never? Just, when no SH team is willing to play a series against them (insert a negative NRL comment)

[ATLANTISMAN]

Its all a question of money who is going to pay for it the euros were cancelled due to the lack of funding from the RLWC/2021.

All sounds wonderful on paper only thing in this neck of the woods which would cover things is France v England in France (With a full French squad) which i cannot see happening now for a while if at all.

 

P 

 

[Barley Mow]

4 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Its all a question of money who is going to pay for it the euros were cancelled due to the lack of funding from the RLWC/2021.

All sounds wonderful on paper only thing in this neck of the woods which would cover things is France v England in France (With a full French squad) which i cannot see happening now for a while if at all.

 

P 

 

Paul

Could you give us some more information about the lack of IRL funding following last year's world cup please?

- We have been told that IRL were paid a fee up front (which was not dependent on the financial success of the tournament) is that false?

- If that fee was paid, how can IRL now lack funding - surely they will have the amount of funding that they always anticipated and planned for?

My understanding is that the 2023 European competition was cancelled when France withdrew from hosting WC 2025. Because there was then an uncertainty over numbers of qualifiers needed for the next world cup, IRL wouldn't fund it - anticipating they would be funding a subsequent qualifying comp once a new host, etc was organised. Am I misinformed?

Thanks in advance.

[GeordieSaint]

3 hours ago, yanto said:

Been going for years until covid hit.

Tier one has included Wales Ireland Scotland France Serbia Lebanon Russia Georgia Netherlands and Italy and ran in 2005,10,12,14,15 and 2018

Tier two has been played in 2007,08,09,10,11,13,15,18 and 2021 and had teams such as Serbia,Ukraine,Greece Russia,Spain,Italy,Germany,Malta,Norway,Latvia and Czech.

Tier three add Estonia and Turkey over the years and the only NH country missing is England.

 

Check out the competitions 

https://europeanrugbyleague.com/competitions/83

Thanks. I was aware - was thinking a revamped version to include England and less teams in each tier. 

[ghost crayfish]

1 hour ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

Yes, the IRL press release speaks about dedicated 4N for each hemisphere 

Fair enough. I think it's a good thing for the Southern Hemisphere at least. With the Ashes and Kiwi tours locked into the schedule, Australia and NZ have a pretty strong and varied international calendar that should promote continued growth in the Pacific. So all positive there. It obviously isolates England a little bit from the big nations, but this might finally force them to lead a more coherent approach to NH test football, which would be a positive. Toulouse are a must in Super League now to help bring France along. 

[Jparrish]

On 07/08/2023 at 06:39, Mathius Hellwege said:

https://www.intrl.sport/news/a-shot-in-the-arm-meninga-wane-hail-ashes-return-and-international-calendar/
 

as Meninga speaks about a 4N in 24 

So England has to organize a 4N of the NH or play in the European Championship

But 4th nation could be Fiji or PNG? I'm sure I read previously the they were gonna take turns to tour the NH. And we should look at offering NZ an attractive enough package to tour in 2024. If not Samoa or NZ. Would Fiji be financially viable ? 

Failing the above a 3 game series in France could maybe be a bit more competitive and would be better than nothing.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Jparrish

[Mathius Hellwege]

5 hours ago, Jparrish said:

But 4th nation could be Fiji or PNG? I'm sure I read previously the they were gonna take turns to tour the NH. And we should look at offering NZ an attractive enough package to tour in 2024. If not Samoa or NZ. Would Fiji be financially viable ? 

Failing the above a 3 game series in France could maybe be a bit more competitive and would be better than nothing.

 

The RFL cannot systematically outbid the NRL.

they lucked out with Tonga due to the pay conflict with the RLPA.

They have to thank for every year the NRL allows one of the seven national teams (probably also Lebanon and the heritage players of Ireland etc.) to leave 

[Dave T]

The elephant in the room here is that there just isn't a credible Four Nations to be had really in the 4N that is going to be both challenging and commercially lucrative for the RFL. 

We can all talk about how we should support France more, and I agree to an extent, but let's be honest, that is a slow burner, we've got a very successful French team in our comp and played them regularly at Test level, but they are worse than ever on the international stage and have no value from a TV point of view, with us having to pay people to put us on tv there. 

And they are our strongest rival in the NH. 

We then look at the others and they are miles away. Wales were only ever strong due to Union converts which is no longer a thing, and Ireland and Scotland may be able to pull together a decent team every now and again, but have no credible club game, commercial value etc. 

None of that means we shouldn't make an effort and support growth in these places, but these nations are not delivering at 4N level for decades of sustained development and investment, if ever. 

In reality, England need to play SH teams, that is where the strength is, and imo there is plenty of commercial growth to be had with even the lower ranked SH teams. 

All 4N held over here really need two SH teams in them. England, France, Samoa, PNG and the other various combinations is the reality of what should be staged. 

Lower ranked Euro nations in a Euro Cup with a Test each against a 4N team would work for them. 

[welshmagpie]

21 hours ago, sam4731 said:

Proportionally 4 or 5 players is quite a lot if they're all starting though. Also you could also say that the super league players they do have are second tier at best because they only play for them because they're not good enough for England.

There are 27 Super League players eligible for Ireland. They’d be ok with the right buy-in.

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

The elephant in the room here is that there just isn't a credible Four Nations to be had really in the 4N that is going to be both challenging and commercially lucrative for the RFL. 

We can all talk about how we should support France more, and I agree to an extent, but let's be honest, that is a slow burner, we've got a very successful French team in our comp and played them regularly at Test level, but they are worse than ever on the international stage and have no value from a TV point of view, with us having to pay people to put us on tv there. 

And they are our strongest rival in the NH. 

We then look at the others and they are miles away. Wales were only ever strong due to Union converts which is no longer a thing, and Ireland and Scotland may be able to pull together a decent team every now and again, but have no credible club game, commercial value etc. 

None of that means we shouldn't make an effort and support growth in these places, but these nations are not delivering at 4N level for decades of sustained development and investment, if ever. 

In reality, England need to play SH teams, that is where the strength is, and imo there is plenty of commercial growth to be had with even the lower ranked SH teams. 

All 4N held over here really need two SH teams in them. England, France, Samoa, PNG and the other various combinations is the reality of what should be staged. 

Lower ranked Euro nations in a Euro Cup with a Test each against a 4N team would work for them. 

An accurate assessment Dave, and I like your suggestion of two SH teams. Two of Tonga, Samoa, Fiji and PNG are going to be left out each year, so that gives us some attractive match ups containing a good number of NRL/SL players. For me that's the way to go in the next cycle.

Only Wales could really feel a bit left out, but their Crusaders generation are close to the end now so it might be a few years of consolidation and getting more valleys youth players into the northern system before we see improvement. At least you can see a path for that, unlike in some other countries.

[Jparrish]

2 hours ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

The RFL cannot systematically outbid the NRL.

they lucked out with Tonga due to the pay conflict with the RLPA.

They have to thank for every year the NRL allows one of the seven national teams (probably also Lebanon and the heritage players of Ireland etc.) to leave 

According to many posters on this site. The NRL arnt interested in the international game but if they willing outbid the RFL so be it. Would it really bother them though Samoa going north and they bring in Fiji or PNG ? Both these countries mean more strategically to Australia so there could even be government funding ?? A 4N fixture could be held in one if these countries too wheras Samao would be far more unlikely. 

But while the RLPA dispute is ongoing why not Try book in NZ and or Samoa for 2024 now ? 

[Mathius Hellwege]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

The elephant in the room here is that there just isn't a credible Four Nations to be had really in the 4N that is going to be both challenging and commercially lucrative for the RFL. 

We can all talk about how we should support France more, and I agree to an extent, but let's be honest, that is a slow burner, we've got a very successful French team in our comp and played them regularly at Test level, but they are worse than ever on the international stage and have no value from a TV point of view, with us having to pay people to put us on tv there. 

And they are our strongest rival in the NH. 

We then look at the others and they are miles away. Wales were only ever strong due to Union converts which is no longer a thing, and Ireland and Scotland may be able to pull together a decent team every now and again, but have no credible club game, commercial value etc. 

None of that means we shouldn't make an effort and support growth in these places, but these nations are not delivering at 4N level for decades of sustained development and investment, if ever. 

In reality, England need to play SH teams, that is where the strength is, and imo there is plenty of commercial growth to be had with even the lower ranked SH teams. 

All 4N held over here really need two SH teams in them. England, France, Samoa, PNG and the other various combinations is the reality of what should be staged. 

Lower ranked Euro nations in a Euro Cup with a Test each against a 4N team would work for them. 

 I totally agree with the analysis, with one exception: If France would field their best team, itt would make an enormous difference

for the therapy: We seem to get in two of the three non-WC years a SH nation due to the good will of the NRL

 

for the remaining year I would not start a bidding war with the NRL that we would loose or that would anger them but instead invite the EMEA Champ (Lebanon?), the Amaricas Champ (Jamaica), the Euro Champ (France) and make it a 4N with England or GB

[Mathius Hellwege]

1 hour ago, Jparrish said:

According to many posters on this site. The NRL arnt interested in the international game but if they willing outbid the RFL so be it. Would it really bother them though Samoa going north and they bring in Fiji or PNG ? Both these countries mean more strategically to Australia so there could even be government funding ?? A 4N fixture could be held in one if these countries too wheras Samao would be far more unlikely. 

But while the RLPA dispute is ongoing why not Try book in NZ and or Samoa for 2024 now ? 

because they want a two-tiered competition with at least six nations, and sometimes (unfortunately) seven

we cannot get anything against their wishes, and they will always pay back our lucky punch (think of the revenge for the Denver test 2018)

[sam4731]

2 hours ago, welshmagpie said:

There are 27 Super League players eligible for Ireland. They’d be ok with the right buy-in.

But if you were to rank every player in Super League where would these Irish players rank? Would any be in the top 20? 50? Whereas the English players are going to occupy how many of those top 50 spots?