Castleford stadium.

[Zilla Budgie]

Castleford's ground reminds me of Leigh's old Hilton Park, and what an amazing stadium that was

[Griff]

On 04/11/2023 at 10:47, Rarefrith said:

Can I just add. Fev’s pitch is full size and has been since the redevelopment of the new stands. The pitch was extended. The slope is not as bad because of that either. 

Bold statement about the slope. If you look at the angle the ground makes with the stand, the slope is significant, though not as bad as Batley.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

What's Cas' current capacity and how many seats do they have?

[Kirmonds pouch]

On 01/11/2023 at 14:05, Kenilworth Tiger said:

The plans are very clearly based on a £12.2 million investment in the stadium but dependent on the Junction 32 scheme being approved also. Clearly a few ifs and buts but the plans are in place based on a fairly decent budget

Sorry but it's not a fairly decent budget. I agree it will certainly be a great starting point, as it's been for us. But the misconception seems to be that it's just about tidying up, and a new stand, but it isn't. The access to WR is dreadful, nobody can deny that. The floodlights need replacing, and a full size pitch creating, and a new car park.

I'll give you a ballpark figure. And I am being sensible and honest here. I'm also looking at creating a 21st century stadium that competes with other SL clubs, not a botch job. My figures are also on the low side.

A stand like ours is 8 million plus and rising. However the demolition cost of your old stand will be considerable, so that will add a bit more. You will also need to add extra flood protection, something we didn't need, and the insurance companies will insist. So make that an extra million, and that's a conservative guess.

Lengthening and resurfacing of pitch. You could get away with just adding grass but that wouldn't gain you any revenue or useability or please IMG. So assuming you do, that's another million.

Re-laying the terracing on two sides, and re-cladding one, and roofing the other. Remember it's not as simple as it used to be, because the Council will almost certainly demand new exits/entries and far better access. New floodlights, and adequate parking will be needed. Also the club will want to add new bars and food outlets to gain more revenue, all the stuff IMG want. At least 3 million.

You will also need a big screen and perimeter advertising. You will probably need executive boxes, an issue we didn't have. People laugh at the flats but they are actually very good , and still fit for purpose. So add another million.

A one million pound overspend, because there always is.

That's 14 million, but for that you have only gained one genuinely new structure. You won't have increased your seating by much if any. What you'd really need is another stand where the open terrace is now, then you'd be on track, but that's probably an extra four million.

That's either a 2 million or 6 million shortfall, depending how you look at it. Can Cas make that up and stay competitive? Considering how much the stakeholders are already owed, it won't be easy, doubt you'd find the money on the open market.

Finally, the elephant in the room that nobody ever factors in. It will take at least two years to do all that. For at least one season you will have no main stand, and at times your capacity will be slashed by half, if you're lucky. You could do it in staged but you would still lose capacity, just for longer period, the net result would be the same. This is what crucified us last season, and had we had a half decent one, there would have been a number of games where we'd have lost significant revenue. You get bigger crowds than we do, so you would see a significant loss in revenue over two seasons. That is the killer, you're cash flows will go to pot and all your budgets will need to be slashed, and that means no investment in players, and look at us to see how bad a scenario that is.

I have no malice here, I want to be playing Cas twice a year until the day I die, and even the odd win would be nice. But from a pragmatic point of view, the people who run your club have seriously missed the bus. And every day that passes that shortfall will grow. You need a saviour, like we did. I don't know yet as to whether our guy is the one long term, but what I do know is that without the new East stand he wouldn't have taken the club on, or if he had it would have been as a Championship level hobby. He now has a base to build on, and I suppose that was the attraction.

If you want to know what we are competing against, look at Headingley. Neither of us need to be on that scale, but we do need the same general levels facility wise. They have three state of the art stands, and we both need the same. We have one, and we sort of have half a one, or we will have when it's finished. You currently have none. We both still have a lot of work to do, if we are to offer our fans what the City of Leeds offers theirs. Again, it's not the size, but it is the quality, and ooh err missus we are both short on that, as they say.

Time will tell I suppose.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Kirmonds pouch

[Kirmonds pouch]

33 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

What's Cas' current capacity and how many seats do they have?

Not enough, and neither do Wakefield, though our seats are at least housed in a modern stand.

[phiggins]

8 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Not enough, and neither do Wakefield, though our seats are at least housed in a modern stand.

Does the new stand not do enough to meet the IMG minimum standards though? 

[Kirmonds pouch]

14 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Does the new stand not do enough to meet the IMG minimum standards though? 

Depends. It gets us a B plus, or will when the North stand is finished properly. But you want an A grade, that is how you will guarantee a place the the SL. At present they probably wouldn't reject Trinity, but we want them greeting us with open arms, and for that we need more, but not as much as Cas.

[phiggins]

6 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Depends. It gets us a B plus, or will when the North stand is finished properly. But you want an A grade, that is how you will guarantee a place the the SL. At present they probably wouldn't reject Trinity, but we want them greeting us with open arms, and for that we need more, but not as much as Cas.

Was more meaning the stadium itself, and whether the new stand opening guarantees the extra point for the stadium meeting minimum standards? Of course, they will want to do more, and further ground improvements will hopefully help with future increases in revenue, but there are only the 0.5 and 1.5 scores available for the stadium itself

[Damien]

32 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Not enough, and neither do Wakefield, though our seats are at least housed in a modern stand.

The new Wakefield stand is more than  2000 seats though so it is enough. It's being presumed as a given that this stand is enough to meet the requirements to give Wakefield an extra point that should see them back in SL

 

[Taffy Tiger]

1 hour ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

What's Cas' current capacity and how many seats do they have?

Hi JH , I think it was around 1,500 seats and a capacity around 10k . However , some work has started on the main stand to take out some of the seats and replace them with padded seats and cordened off from other areas to meet IMG requirements . The plastic seats removed are then going into Princess Street Stand opposite the main stand, with more added to bring us to the minimum 2k seats . This may affect capacity a little , but we will still be well above 5k minimum and in effect could increase our IMG score a little as our utilisation score will be bigger .

 

[Taffy Tiger]

57 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Sorry but it's not a fairly decent budget. I agree it will certainly be a great starting point, as it's been for us. But the misconception seems to be that it's just about tidying up, and a new stand, but it isn't. The access to WR is dreadful, nobody can deny that. The floodlights need replacing, and a full size pitch creating, and a new car park.

I'll give you a ballpark figure. And I am being sensible and honest here. I'm also looking at creating a 21st century stadium that competes with other SL clubs, not a botch job. My figures are also on the low side.

A stand like ours is 8 million plus and rising. However the demolition cost of your old stand will be considerable, so that will add a bit more. You will also need to add extra flood protection, something we didn't need, and the insurance companies will insist. So make that an extra million, and that's a conservative guess.

Lengthening and resurfacing of pitch. You could get away with just adding grass but that wouldn't gain you any revenue or useability or please IMG. So assuming you do, that's another million.

Re-laying the terracing on two sides, and re-cladding one, and roofing the other. Remember it's not as simple as it used to be, because the Council will almost certainly demand new exits/entries and far better access. New floodlights, and adequate parking will be needed. Also the club will want to add new bars and food outlets to gain more revenue, all the stuff IMG want. At least 3 million.

You will also need a big screen and perimeter advertising. You will probably need executive boxes, an issue we didn't have. People laugh at the flats but they are actually very good , and still fit for purpose. So add another million.

A one million pound overspend, because there always is.

That's 14 million, but for that you have only gained one genuinely new structure. You won't have increased your seating by much if any. What you'd really need is another stand where the open terrace is now, then you'd be on track, but that's probably an extra four million.

That's either a 2 million or 6 million shortfall, depending how you look at it. Can Cas make that up and stay competitive? Considering how much the stakeholders are already owed, it won't be easy, doubt you'd find the money on the open market.

Finally, the elephant in the room that nobody ever factors in. It will take at least two years to do all that. For at least one season you will have no main stand, and at times your capacity will be slashed by half, if you're lucky. You could do it in staged but you would still lose capacity, just for longer period, the net result would be the same. This is what crucified us last season, and had we had a half decent one, there would have been a number of games where we'd have lost significant revenue. You get bigger crowds than we do, so you would see a significant loss in revenue over two seasons. That is the killer, you're cash flows will go to pot and all your budgets will need to be slashed, and that means no investment in players, and look at us to see how bad a scenario that is.

I have no malice here, I want to be playing Cas twice a year until the day I die, and even the odd win would be nice. But from a pragmatic point of view, the people who run your club have seriously missed the bus. And every day that passes that shortfall will grow. You need a saviour, like we did. I don't know yet as to whether our guy is the one long term, but what I do know is that without the new East stand he wouldn't have taken the club on, or if he had it would have been as a Championship level hobby. He now has a base to build on, and I suppose that was the attraction.

If you want to know what we are competing against, look at Headingley. Neither of us need to be on that scale, but we do need the same general levels facility wise. They have three state of the art stands, and we both need the same. We have one, and we sort of have half a one, or we will have when it's finished. You currently have none. We both still have a lot of work to do, if we are to offer our fans what the City of Leeds offers theirs. Again, it's not the size, but it is the quality, and ooh err missus we are both short on that, as they say.

Time will tell I suppose.

Hi KP , good post , however I can't imagine we are wanting to do much more than the minimum requirements (£14M estimated in your post which seems fair enough). There is £12.2M from Axiom but another £2M from WMDC , which should cover the cost . Enough for the 1 point extra is all that we would be looking for , with perhaps the 0.125 for a big screen . I don't think there is enough room around the perimeter for LED advertising so that's 0.125 point we would have to forego . You are right that it would take at least 1 full season , however it has already been mooted that during this time we could move into another stadium fit for purpose (Doncaster has been mentioned) so that we would keep the point for stadium and ironically probably get another 0.125 for LED advertising , although we would lose 0.25 for ownership of ground. 

I would suggest that at this moment in time Cas will be looking to bring WR up to an acceptable standard . We are also looking for a new owner , so if this does happen then more work on the ground may be an option . 

 

As I understand it the size of the pitch is not an issue and wouldn't lose us any points , so that may not be top of our things to do . As you mention this could raise costs considerably .

Edited November 7, 2023 by Taffy Tiger

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi JH , I think it was around 1,500 seats and a capacity around 10k . However , some work has started on the main stand to take out some of the seats and replace them with padded seats and cordened off from other areas to meet IMG requirements . The plastic seats removed are then going into Princess Street Stand opposite the main stand, with more added to bring us to the minimum 2k seats . This may affect capacity a little , but we will still be well above 5k minimum and in effect could increase our IMG score a little as our utilisation score will be bigger .

 

Is that with or without planning permission?

[Taffy Tiger]

5 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Is that with or without planning permission?

HI LTS ,  PP decision not expected until January now . The current work is to (hopefully) give Cas the extra point for IMG stadium minimum requirements in the meantime , as , even if PP gets the go-ahead in January , it is unlikley that work will begin straight away  . It may be that work will start at the end of this season , in which case Cas will need the minimum standards in place for IMG grading in 2024.

[dboy]

I'm wondering how Cas are doing this work without planning permission - it's material change to the use of the structures, and also wonder what plans they have to get any amended structures signed off by WMDC licencing.

Also, the Jan date for PP on the new development is the earliest the application can go in - it doesn't automatically follow that a decision will be made at that time.

[Taffy Tiger]

3 minutes ago, dboy said:

I'm wondering how Cas are doing this work without planning permission - it's material change to the use of the structures, and also wonder what plans they have to get any amended structures signed off by WMDC licencing.

Also, the Jan date for PP on the new development is the earliest the application can go in - it doesn't automatically follow that a decision will be made at that time.

Hi dboy , yes Jan date is the very earliest . Even if passed then it will be some time until work actually starts . I am only guessing , but I would say it won't be started this season , which may be why the changes are being made to the seating .

Edited November 7, 2023 by Taffy Tiger

[Barley Mow]

4 hours ago, dboy said:

I'm wondering how Cas are doing this work without planning permission - it's material change to the use of the structures, and also wonder what plans they have to get any amended structures signed off by WMDC licencing.

Also, the Jan date for PP on the new development is the earliest the application can go in - it doesn't automatically follow that a decision will be made at that time.

If the initial works are limited to changes to the seating, cordonning off a directors area, installing seats in another stand and general repair, maintenance and improvements - then they may have been advised that those works don't require planning permission on the basis of not materially impacting the external appearance of the building, and therefore being excluded from the definition of development as at s.55 (2) (a) (ii) of the 1990 Planning Act.

I don't know if that is the advice they've been given and don't have enough information to form a firm opinion on whether it is the case, but it's a possibility.

You say it would be a material change to the use of the structures. I have not seen anything that seems to suggest a material change of use - the current use is as a sports ground (a sui generis use) and I assume that is the use that will continue - unless Cas have decided to give up on playing rugby!

Edited November 8, 2023 by Barley Mow

[dboy]

9 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

If the initial works are limited to changes to the seating, cordonning off a directors area, installing seats in another stand and general repair, maintenance and improvements - then they may have been advised that those works don't require planning permission on the basis of not materially impacting the external appearance of the building, and therefore being excluded from the definition of development as at s.55 (2) (a) (ii) of the 1990 Planning Act.

I don't know if that is the advice they've been given and don't have enough information to form a firm opinion on whether it is the case, but it's a possibility.

You say it would be a material change to the use of the structures. I have not seen anything that seems to suggest a material change of use - the current use is as a sports ground (a sui generis use) and I assume that is the use that will continue - unless Cas have decided to give up on playing rugby!

Largely agree with all that, but putting seats in a stand designed for standing is a material change of use.

 

[Barley Mow]

34 minutes ago, dboy said:

Largely agree with all that, but putting seats in a stand designed for standing is a material change of use.

 

In what way?

A material change of use would be a change between two use classes or something like a material intensification of the existing use. Castleford aren't proposing to use the ground for a different purpose - it will still be a sports ground (accommodating approximately the same number of people), therefore no material change of use.

If planning permission were required for any reason, I think it's more likely to be due to a material impact to the external appearance of the building, meaning the works fall within the s.55 definition of development and therefore require planning permission - but without knowing exactly what works they're doing, I couldn't say.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Agbrigg]

4 hours ago, dboy said:

Largely agree with all that, but putting seats in a stand designed for standing is a material change of use.

 

I don't see it that way. At Wakey we plonked  those seats Infront of the boxes and as far as I am aware no planning approval was needed.

I think the only problem by putting seats in the Princess Street stand would come from the ground safety people and provided there were no issues identified , they should be OK.

Anyhow let's not forget they have got away with a wooden stand for all these years, a few seats under the stand will be waved through.

[Kenilworth Tiger]

My oh my there's some absolute nonsense spouted on this thread

[Leyther_Matt]

The seats change would mean a change in safety certificate - I’m particularly interested in to whether they’re reprofiling the terracing or just bolting them on - but I don’t see that reflecting a planning issue. 

[phiggins]

Of course, once they get some seats padded, and others bolted onto an existing terrace, Cas will be a big screen and LED board away from having the joint best stadium used for rugby league across England and France...

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

3 hours ago, Kenilworth Tiger said:

My oh my there's some absolute nonsense spouted on this thread

As usual.

[Damien]

Great news:

AXIOM PROVIDE POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT UPDATE
Axiom Yorkshire can confirm that both planning applications for a major upgrade to the Wheldon Road stadium and a significant new employment development on the Axiom site, at Junction 32 on the M62 have taken a major step forward this week

Axiom Yorkshire can confirm that both planning applications for a major upgrade to the Wheldon Road stadium and a significant new employment development on the Axiom site, at Junction 32 on the M62 have taken a major step forward this week, following the recent decision by National Highways to lift its holding objection to the Axiom proposals and with Wakefield Council’s highways team also confirming that they have no objection. 

Planning applications for both projects were submitted at the end of 2022 and have been going through the process of being rigorously assessed by Wakefield Council’s planning team. As these highways matters were the last major issues which needed agreement on the Axiom scheme, the planning applications could be decided in the coming weeks, with Wakefield Council’s confirmation of a planning committee date hoped for as soon as possible.

If planning is approved for both projects, the circa £200 million Axiom Yorkshire employment, logistics and manufacturing proposals will create over 2,200 jobs for local people and provide £12.2 million of funding towards major upgrades at Wheldon Road and £15 million of highways improvements to the Junction 32 roundabout.

https://castlefordtigers.com/article.php?id=8815&fbclid=IwAR0_t7yuly5KHyy71527xgRSZ4jsHG_RG5UQ5Z7Msr9Kuqu1WalA28yCULE

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

3 hours ago, Damien said:

Great news:

AXIOM PROVIDE POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT UPDATE
Axiom Yorkshire can confirm that both planning applications for a major upgrade to the Wheldon Road stadium and a significant new employment development on the Axiom site, at Junction 32 on the M62 have taken a major step forward this week

Axiom Yorkshire can confirm that both planning applications for a major upgrade to the Wheldon Road stadium and a significant new employment development on the Axiom site, at Junction 32 on the M62 have taken a major step forward this week, following the recent decision by National Highways to lift its holding objection to the Axiom proposals and with Wakefield Council’s highways team also confirming that they have no objection. 

Planning applications for both projects were submitted at the end of 2022 and have been going through the process of being rigorously assessed by Wakefield Council’s planning team. As these highways matters were the last major issues which needed agreement on the Axiom scheme, the planning applications could be decided in the coming weeks, with Wakefield Council’s confirmation of a planning committee date hoped for as soon as possible.

If planning is approved for both projects, the circa £200 million Axiom Yorkshire employment, logistics and manufacturing proposals will create over 2,200 jobs for local people and provide £12.2 million of funding towards major upgrades at Wheldon Road and £15 million of highways improvements to the Junction 32 roundabout.

https://castlefordtigers.com/article.php?id=8815&fbclid=IwAR0_t7yuly5KHyy71527xgRSZ4jsHG_RG5UQ5Z7Msr9Kuqu1WalA28yCULE

There are still the EA objections to both developments which are far bigger difficulties.