Toulouse struggling

[Fevrover]

2 minutes ago, Bradman Better said:

Something that flat cappers from the tiny former pit and mill towns never do. Which is why the pit and mill town crippled RFL, with little entrepreneurial talent, is stagnating and even declining.

I can see where you're coming from and it would be great if all these teams played RL in the USA  but sadly RL isn't popular enough to go that far. It isn't taken seriously in UK by most of the media so it won't grow like you would like.

[Bradman Better]

14 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

I can see where you're coming from and it would be great if all these teams played RL in the USA  but sadly RL isn't popular enough to go that far. It isn't taken seriously in UK by most of the media so it won't grow like you would like.

Rugby league isn't as popular as it should be in the UK because it has been poorly led for over a century. Despite that it still attracts the interest of the BBC for televising the Challenge Cup, the World Cup, and other international games. If the RFL was led by entrepreneurial people like Peter V'landys it would be much more successful than it is in England and France.

There is an amateur rugby league competition in the USA. If it was restarted in the USA at a professional level by people like Peter V'Landys, with input from Russell Crowe and other rugby league fans well connected in the USA , it could succeed, one step at a time.

Note that the NRL is taking two matches of the opening round of the 2024 NRL competition to Las Vegas, with Russell Crowe's South Sydney Rabbitohs one of the teams playing..

Edited September 24, 2023 by Bradman Better

[Phil]

On 21/09/2023 at 14:00, OdsalBull said:

Congrats. I still wouldn't swap it for the history or character of VP or even galpharm

I was always under the impression that City simply won’t share with the Bulls, is this correct? 

[Fevrover]

8 minutes ago, Bradman Better said:

Rugby league isn't as popular as it should be in the UK because it has been poorly led for over a century. Despite that it attracts the interest of the BBC for televising the Challenge Cup, the World Cup, and other international games. If the RFL was led by entrepreneurial people like Peter V'landys it would be much more successful than it is in England and France.

There is an amateur rugby league competition in the USA. If it was restarted in the USA at a professional level by people like Peter V'Landys, with input from Russell Crowe and other well connected in the USA rugby league fans, it could succeed, one step at a time.

Note that the NRL is taking two matches of the opening round of the 2024 NRL competition to Las Vegas, with Russell Crowe's South Sydney Rabbitohs one of the teams playing..

NRL is run completely different to SL and it shows. SL chairmen are only bothered about - SL.

[Bradman Better]

1 minute ago, Fevrover said:

NRL is run completely different to SL and it shows. SL chairmen are only bothered about - SL.

But the RFL and the British clubs are under great financial stress. The game in the northern hemisphere desperately needs a large injection of money from TV and corporate sponsors. The NRL under V'Landys has been very successful at achieving that in the southern hemisphere. Rugby league is hugely popular in Australia, and since the success this year of the NZ Warriors, increasingly popular in New Zealand as well.  The NRL is now a very successful business. That is why I advocate, in line with Phil Gould, an NRL takeover of the RFL and Super League.

[Fevrover]

1 minute ago, Bradman Better said:

But the RFL and the British clubs are under great financial stress. The game in the northern hemisphere desperately needs a large injection of money from TV and corporate sponsors. The NRL under V'Landys has been very successful at achieving that in the southern hemisphere. Rugby league is hugely popular in Australia, and since the success this year of the NZ Warriors, increasingly popular in New Zealand as well.  The NRL is now a very successful business. That is why I advocate, in line with Phil Gould, an NRL takeover of the RFL and Super League.

Why is Sky giving less money ? Viaplay are dropping RL ,hopefully they can get someone with money on board i don't see them queuing up to invest.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

10 hours ago, Fevrover said:

Why is Sky giving less money ? Viaplay are dropping RL ,hopefully they can get someone with money on board i don't see them queuing up to invest.

DNFTT

[Fevrover]

5 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

DNFTT

Definitely now lol.

[OdsalBull]

11 hours ago, Phil said:

I was always under the impression that City simply won’t share with the Bulls, is this correct? 

It's a different regime now, I think they would if the price was right 

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, Bradman Better said:

The Hull derby is great for rugby league. There is room for two Hull teams because they have significant fan bases. But on the criterion of fan bases there is no place for Salford or Wakefield. 

The England club involvement in Super League should be limited to Wigan, St Helens, Warrington, Leeds, Bradford, Hull FC, Hull KR, London, Newcastle, and perhaps Sheffield.

France needs a minimum of four teams to enable it it attract a paying TV contract, and three of those should be major cities. Catalans, based in the small city of Perpignan is already in Super League and very successful, so it must be retained. Toulouse is the 4th biggest city and ready to go under new ownership and management. The third French team must be Paris, because it is the national capital ,and the centre of French media and commerce. The fourth team should be either of the second and third biggest cities of Lyon or Marseille.

Eventually Super League can have six French teams as members of a French conference, and a very lucrative TV contract would be ensured if they were mostly big cities. It would best be, in order of accession, Catalans, Toulouse, Paris, Lyon, Marseille, and then one out of Nantes, or Provence (based in Avignon), or Montpellier, or Bordeaux, or Lille.

The Super League should also try to resuscitate rugby league in North America. Toronto should be the first team because it has been tried and worked until Covid destroyed it. New York should be the second. Those two should be followed when possible by Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago and either Ottawa or Montreal to make a six team North American conference that was geographically and financially (in terms of transportation costs) viable, and attractive from a marketing perspective to a north American television network.

Later, if these six north American teams were successful from a business and fan point of view, we could add from the following: Jacksonville, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Denver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Washington DC, and Vancouver, and either of Montreal and Ottawa to make a 16 team independent North American Rugby League.

It should be noted that rugby union is already running a large US national competition which is being televised.

I will put this as politely as possible, your intentions are very admirable but you simply have no realisation of RL in Europe and the popularity (or lack of) it has, the game is simply not wanted (apart from a very very few devotees) outside of Lancashire, Yorkshire and a small part of Cumbria, and in France it is the same, you mention Perpignan but that fair City doesn't really classify itself as French it is Catalan taking in that North Eastern part of Spain and would be independent had it have the chance, RL allows them to be different, the rest of France has very little interest in RL and will never gain a TV contract for that reason.

We have just passed the best aggregate attendance for SL since 2012 being just short of 1.5m, Football is king here, Man U in 22/23 season had 1.4m attendees alone not counting Man City, Liverpool, Everton that takes a combined over 4m and those football teams encompass 3 of our biggest clubs in Wigan, Saints and Warrington plus Leigh and Salford.

Hull FC and HKR combine circa 280K attendences whilst Hull City in the second division of Football had 370K in 22/23, and our best attended club in Leeds Rhinos in a city that boasts 800K+ souls can only attract 11500 home fans less than 1.5% of its population. 

So in these hot beds of RL where we fall well behind of Football, how do you envisage we make it popular in other parts of the country, it simply won't happen, not ever, zilch, zero, never.

As I have said in the past, concentrate on what we have, make it the best it can possibly be, look more after the grass roots for if we let that to continually decline we will have no game at all.

[Harry Stottle]

That is my only FFTT.

[Fevrover]

52 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I will put this as politely as possible, your intentions are very admirable but you simply have no realisation of RL in Europe and the popularity (or lack of) it has, the game is simply not wanted (apart from a very very few devotees) outside of Lancashire, Yorkshire and a small part of Cumbria, and in France it is the same, you mention Perpignan but that fair City doesn't really classify itself as French it is Catalan taking in that North Eastern part of Spain and would be independent had it have the chance, RL allows them to be different, the rest of France has very little interest in RL and will never gain a TV contract for that reason.

We have just passed the best aggregate attendance for SL since 2012 being just short of 1.5m, Football is king here, Man U in 22/23 season had 1.4m attendees alone not counting Man City, Liverpool, Everton that takes a combined over 4m and those football teams encompass 3 of our biggest clubs in Wigan, Saints and Warrington plus Leigh and Salford.

Hull FC and HKR combine circa 280K attendences whilst Hull City in the second division of Football had 370K in 22/23, and our best attended club in Leeds Rhinos in a city that boasts 800K+ souls can only attract 11500 home fans less than 1.5% of its population. 

So in these hot beds of RL where we fall well behind of Football, how do you envisage we make it popular in other parts of the country, it simply won't happen, not ever, zilch, zero, never.

As I have said in the past, concentrate on what we have, make it the best it can possibly be, look more after the grass roots for if we let that to continually decline we will have no game at all.

That last paragraph says it all.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

16 hours ago, Bradman Better said:

Rugby league isn't as popular as it should be in the UK because it has been poorly led for over a century. Despite that it still attracts the interest of the BBC for televising the Challenge Cup, the World Cup, and other international games. If the RFL was led by entrepreneurial people like Peter V'landys it would be much more successful than it is in England and France.

There is an amateur rugby league competition in the USA. If it was restarted in the USA at a professional level by people like Peter V'Landys, with input from Russell Crowe and other rugby league fans well connected in the USA , it could succeed, one step at a time.

Note that the NRL is taking two matches of the opening round of the 2024 NRL competition to Las Vegas, with Russell Crowe's South Sydney Rabbitohs one of the teams playing..

I'm not saying the RFL leadership are competent, outside of the Oxley and Lewis eras they've been anything but, however we need to be honest about the challenge being different: It's a lot easier for V'Landy's to take an already-dominant sport and start to attract its proper value (having been undersold for years) than it is to take a challenger sport in a country with established market-leading competitors and grow it from that low base.  

[yipyee]

On 25/09/2023 at 10:09, Harry Stottle said:

I will put this as politely as possible, your intentions are very admirable but you simply have no realisation of RL in Europe and the popularity (or lack of) it has, the game is simply not wanted (apart from a very very few devotees) outside of Lancashire, Yorkshire and a small part of Cumbria, and in France it is the same, you mention Perpignan but that fair City doesn't really classify itself as French it is Catalan taking in that North Eastern part of Spain and would be independent had it have the chance, RL allows them to be different, the rest of France has very little interest in RL and will never gain a TV contract for that reason.

We have just passed the best aggregate attendance for SL since 2012 being just short of 1.5m, Football is king here, Man U in 22/23 season had 1.4m attendees alone not counting Man City, Liverpool, Everton that takes a combined over 4m and those football teams encompass 3 of our biggest clubs in Wigan, Saints and Warrington plus Leigh and Salford.

Hull FC and HKR combine circa 280K attendences whilst Hull City in the second division of Football had 370K in 22/23, and our best attended club in Leeds Rhinos in a city that boasts 800K+ souls can only attract 11500 home fans less than 1.5% of its population. 

So in these hot beds of RL where we fall well behind of Football, how do you envisage we make it popular in other parts of the country, it simply won't happen, not ever, zilch, zero, never.

As I have said in the past, concentrate on what we have, make it the best it can possibly be, look more after the grass roots for if we let that to continually decline we will have no game at all.

RL was popular in toulouse and they have been overlooked for 25 years... they should be in SL and free from the threat of relegation.

Toronto worked, the SL chairmen booted them out.

London worked, current bad leadership of the SL club which has toppled the whole area.

Newcastle region worked but is going backwards, not sure why

Wales worked but crusaders were promoted to SL to soon. Union also started a war on RL in the country.

The RFL pulled the development officers which were paid for by sports England which collapsed progress all over the nation. Sports England then pulled the funding.

The current clubs will not grow unless there us a bigger geographical spread. England attendances will not grow without a regular calender and events targeting a newer audience.

You and your comments are the mindset of the leaders of the game which have us stuck where we are.

Stay small and carry on will not help the game grow at all.

How do you think sponsorship works ? Why do you think premier league football claim to have hundreds of millions of fans ? 

IMG are clearly forcing clubs to push SM to demonstrate reach to enable better marketing to sponsors..

The TV deal there is no competition to sky, in addition we expect sky to produce all the content. Its crazy to expect the package deal to continue to increase. The biggest deal we got was when sky had to buy the rights to league1 the championship , SL , the CC games bbc didn't want to show and exclusive England internationals.

Now they don't want the championship and certainly not league 1. They don't have exclusivity to SL, they don't want the CC and they don't have England games, oh and we are asking them to film every single game and we expect a bigger financial payment ?!

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, yipyee said:

RL was popular in toulouse and they have been overlooked for 25 years... they should be in SL and free from the threat of relegation.

Toronto worked, the SL chairmen booted them out.

London worked, current bad leadership of the SL club which has toppled the whole area.

Newcastle region worked but is going backwards, not sure why

Wales worked but crusaders were promoted to SL to soon. Union also started a war on RL in the country.

The RFL pulled the development officers which were paid for by sports England which collapsed progress all over the nation. Sports England then pulled the funding.

The current clubs will not grow unless there us a bigger geographical spread. England attendances will not grow without a regular calender and events targeting a newer audience.

You and your comments are the mindset of the leaders of the game which have us stuck where we are.

Stay small and carry on will not help the game grow at all.

How do you think sponsorship works ? Why do you think premier league football claim to have hundreds of millions of fans ? 

IMG are clearly forcing clubs to push SM to demonstrate reach to enable better marketing to sponsors..

The TV deal there is no competition to sky, in addition we expect sky to produce all the content. Its crazy to expect the package deal to continue to increase. The biggest deal we got was when sky had to buy the rights to league1 the championship , SL , the CC games bbc didn't want to show and exclusive England internationals.

Now they don't want the championship and certainly not league 1. They don't have exclusivity to SL, they don't want the CC and they don't have England games, oh and we are asking them to film every single game and we expect a bigger financial payment ?!

If what you say was isolated cases then the cause for concern and remedies you claim would be acceptable, but it isn't, failure of expansion is an epidemic that has lasted for many many years, RL does not travel well outside of its spiritual home.

When we start to have everyone pulling together in the same direction to make it as strong and better than it can possibly be in the heartlands, then that may be the time to reach out, but this is not the time.

You single out London and Newcastle, let me let you into a little secret apart from a very few RL is not wanted by the locals of those area's, and it still has to be accepted in Toulouse now not 25 years ago and that is up to the Owners of T.O. and the FFR to grow it, not the RFL and the Owners of our Clubs they have enough on their plate to grow our/their own.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[Mathius Hellwege]

58 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If what you say was isolated cases then the cause for concern and remedies you claim would be acceptable, but it isn't, failure of expansion is an epidemic that has lasted for many many years, RL does not travel well outside of its spiritual home.

When we start to have everyone pulling together in the same direction to make it as strong and better than it can possibly be in the heartlands, then that may be the time to reach out, but this is not the time.

You single out London and Newcastle, let me let you into a little secret apart from a very few RL is not wanted by the locals of those area's, and it still has to be accepted in Toulouse now not 25 years ago and that is up to the Owners of T.O. and the FFR to grow it, not the RFL and the Owners of our Clubs they have enough on their plate to grow our/their own.

there are so many sports that have developed new countries or areas that is simply perverse or very negative that TGG is the only one that cannot 

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

there are so many sports that have developed new countries or areas that is simply perverse or very negative that TGG is the only one that cannot 

Never mind other countries Mathius, it won't spread here, it is not even wanted by many people in towns it already exists in e.g. combined population of 3 of our top clubs Warrington, Wigan Borough and St Helens is 730,000, combined average attendance of those 3 is 40,000 and I have included this season's Leigh's 7000 in those figs, I could go on with Leeds, combined Hull, Bradford, Wakefield Metro, Huddersfield, Heavy Woolens etc etc, get the picture? There are hundreds of thousands residents in the games heartlands that couldn't be bothered if RL finished tomorrow, so how do you expect it is accepted out of the heartlands, let me just throw a few names in there of the last 30 years or so in Nottingham, Mansfield, Carlisle, Scarborough, Maidstone, Gloucester, Oxford, came and went and more recently Coventry, Newcastle and even present day London for evidence of not a lot can be bothered with the game.

There has been 43 incarnations of RL clubs no longer in existence and a good lot of them in the heartlands it doesn't matter that some of those was a very long time ago it is the same principle that applies now as it did back then they are/not popular.

Before anyone says it, yes some of those 43 have new clubs still operating in the same towns i.e. York, St Helens, Hunslet, Bradford, Newcastle.

I am a RL nut as much as anyone Mathius, but I am also a realist RL does not travel well that is why I say make what we have better and stronger in the heartlands.

[Harry Stottle]

@glossop saint & @Mathius Hellwege re your sad emojis to my post albeit I agree with you it is sad, but it is also the truth.

I have said why we should concentrate on the heartlands, please tell me why going further afield if only in this country would work and how would you govern it, don't be shy lads convert me, tell me where and why I am wrong.

[JM2010]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Never mind other countries Mathius, it won't spread here, it is not even wanted by many people in towns it already exists in e.g. combined population of 3 of our top clubs Warrington, Wigan Borough and St Helens is 730,000, combined average attendance of those 3 is 40,000 and I have included this season's Leigh's 7000 in those figs, I could go on with Leeds, combined Hull, Bradford, Wakefield Metro, Huddersfield, Heavy Woolens etc etc, get the picture? There are hundreds of thousands residents in the games heartlands that couldn't be bothered if RL finished tomorrow, so how do you expect it is accepted out of the heartlands, let me just throw a few names in there of the last 30 years or so in Nottingham, Mansfield, Carlisle, Scarborough, Maidstone, Gloucester, Oxford, came and went and more recently Coventry, Newcastle and even present day London for evidence of not a lot can be bothered with the game.

There has been 43 incarnations of RL clubs no longer in existence and a good lot of them in the heartlands it doesn't matter that some of those was a very long time ago it is the same principle that applies now as it did back then they are/not popular.

Before anyone says it, yes some of those 43 have new clubs still operating in the same towns i.e. York, St Helens, Hunslet, Bradford, Newcastle.

I am a RL nut as much as anyone Mathius, but I am also a realist RL does not travel well that is why I say make what we have better and stronger in the heartlands.

You make some good points Harry but I think you’re being dramatic saying RL isn’t wanted. Not being interested in a sport doesn’t mean they don’t want it in the town.

I’ve got visions of angry mobs with pitch forks burning down local RL club houses

[kiggy]

I thought this thread was about Toulouse struggling! Are they OK now?

[glossop saint]

32 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

@glossop saint & @Mathius Hellwege re your sad emojis to my post albeit I agree with you it is sad, but it is also the truth.

I have said why we should concentrate on the heartlands, please tell me why going further afield if only in this country would work and how would you govern it, don't be shy lads convert me, tell me where and why I am wrong.

It's been stated many times by many people as to why expansion and spreading to new areas. I don't have the energy at the moment to write a whole post repeating them.

I dispute that it is the truth. Ask the many many people who have watched or played the sport (including a selection of pro/semi pro players) in those areas if they are not interested. As a percentage there is not the same as the heartland areas but that does not mean that people do not want it. There is a huge percentage of people that probably don't even know about the existence of the sport. That is not the same as not wanting it. 

Why would this great sport be so attractive to people who were only born in a certain postcode? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And an extremely sad attitude to have.

[yipyee]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

If what you say was isolated cases then the cause for concern and remedies you claim would be acceptable, but it isn't, failure of expansion is an epidemic that has lasted for many many years, RL does not travel well outside of its spiritual home.

When we start to have everyone pulling together in the same direction to make it as strong and better than it can possibly be in the heartlands, then that may be the time to reach out, but this is not the time.

You single out London and Newcastle, let me let you into a little secret apart from a very few RL is not wanted by the locals of those area's, and it still has to be accepted in Toulouse now not 25 years ago and that is up to the Owners of T.O. and the FFR to grow it, not the RFL and the Owners of our Clubs they have enough on their plate to grow our/their own.

It fails because the insular people involved in the game at a high level make them fail.

The heartlands won't grow if the wider game doesn't. 

Everytime expansion starts to work the powers that be shrink it back down. The removal of expansion officers that were not centrally funded ! Is proof of this.

Toulouse have repeatedly been rejected from SL for 25 years.. they need a protected stint in the top division and it will be a success.

You say no one wants Newcastle to be a success locally then why do they repeatedly bid for magic, why did the amateur scene had an explosion from nothing to multiple clubs ?

[yipyee]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Never mind other countries Mathius, it won't spread here, it is not even wanted by many people in towns it already exists in e.g. combined population of 3 of our top clubs Warrington, Wigan Borough and St Helens is 730,000, combined average attendance of those 3 is 40,000 and I have included this season's Leigh's 7000 in those figs, I could go on with Leeds, combined Hull, Bradford, Wakefield Metro, Huddersfield, Heavy Woolens etc etc, get the picture? There are hundreds of thousands residents in the games heartlands that couldn't be bothered if RL finished tomorrow, so how do you expect it is accepted out of the heartlands, let me just throw a few names in there of the last 30 years or so in Nottingham, Mansfield, Carlisle, Scarborough, Maidstone, Gloucester, Oxford, came and went and more recently Coventry, Newcastle and even present day London for evidence of not a lot can be bothered with the game.

There has been 43 incarnations of RL clubs no longer in existence and a good lot of them in the heartlands it doesn't matter that some of those was a very long time ago it is the same principle that applies now as it did back then they are/not popular.

Before anyone says it, yes some of those 43 have new clubs still operating in the same towns i.e. York, St Helens, Hunslet, Bradford, Newcastle.

I am a RL nut as much as anyone Mathius, but I am also a realist RL does not travel well that is why I say make what we have better and stronger in the heartlands.

The population vs attendance is strange As it is probably comparable to any other sport.. 

I always look at a 10% rule, 10% of the population is the achievable attendance for any sport..

 

Also the destruction of league 1 was targeted and those clubs named was targeted by a change of approach to shrink the game. That was after a very successful period to grow the game.

Edited September 26, 2023 by yipyee

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, glossop saint said:

It's been stated many times by many people as to why expansion and spreading to new areas. I don't have the energy at the moment to write a whole post repeating them.

I dispute that it is the truth. Ask the many many people who have watched or played the sport (including a selection of pro/semi pro players) in those areas if they are not interested. As a percentage there is not the same as the heartland areas but that does not mean that people do not want it. There is a huge percentage of people that probably don't even know about the existence of the sport. That is not the same as not wanting it. 

Why would this great sport be so attractive to people who were only born in a certain postcode? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And an extremely sad attitude to have.

I thought we were talking about professional clubs Glossop, please point me in the direction of all the succesful ones outside of the heartlands in the last 128 years, surely you don't need much energy to write that down, do you?

[Mathius Hellwege]

15 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Never mind other countries Mathius, it won't spread here, it is not even wanted by many people in towns it already exists in e.g. combined population of 3 of our top clubs Warrington, Wigan Borough and St Helens is 730,000, combined average attendance of those 3 is 40,000 and I have included this season's Leigh's 7000 in those figs, I could go on with Leeds, combined Hull, Bradford, Wakefield Metro, Huddersfield, Heavy Woolens etc etc, get the picture? There are hundreds of thousands residents in the games heartlands that couldn't be bothered if RL finished tomorrow, so how do you expect it is accepted out of the heartlands, let me just throw a few names in there of the last 30 years or so in Nottingham, Mansfield, Carlisle, Scarborough, Maidstone, Gloucester, Oxford, came and went and more recently Coventry, Newcastle and even present day London for evidence of not a lot can be bothered with the game.

There has been 43 incarnations of RL clubs no longer in existence and a good lot of them in the heartlands it doesn't matter that some of those was a very long time ago it is the same principle that applies now as it did back then they are/not popular.

Before anyone says it, yes some of those 43 have new clubs still operating in the same towns i.e. York, St Helens, Hunslet, Bradford, Newcastle.

I am a RL nut as much as anyone Mathius, but I am also a realist RL does not travel well that is why I say make what we have better and stronger in the heartlands.

Sp they are a minority sport in the M62 corridor

I agree

But why not become a minority sport in other regions, countries?

That is more realistic than becoming a amjority sport in the M62 corridor

 

In Germany in the 1980 Handball was primarily played in Northern and Ice Hockey primarily in Southern Germany...now both have grown in thwier weak area and stayed stable in their heartland

Basketball was very far behinf in the 80s and is not with an accepted B-sprt behind soccer in all Germany (before the WC win)

so Rugby league has a lot of growth potential, and 99% of it are outside the M62 corridor