Are we stuck?

[Damien]

7 hours ago, Copa said:

Rugby union in Australia has been going backwards significantly.

A 2006 news article states that Brisbane and Sydney lost 800 tennis courts in 8 years ( https://www.abc.net.au/news/2006-06-26/loss-of-courts-crippling-australian-tennis/1787038 ). It is no doubt even worse now.

Sydney alone has lost around 160 squash centres (https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/where-have-all-the-squash-courts-gone-lost-to-developers-every-one-20220816-p5ba89.html ). 

Vigoro was a well known sport in Sydney schools around 60 years ago. Now there’s only a few teams in NSW.

There are other activities I remember being huge that are now on the periphery.

Millions of Australians have no idea how popular these sports were back in the day. The older you are the more likely you’ve seen sports fade away and new sports take their place.

Sports can, and do fade away, for a whole range of reasons.

Interesting. Never heard of Vigoro so that was my new google knowledge search for the day!

[tiffers]

29 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

 

So the question then is whether RL and RL clubs, which pride themselves on being key parts of their community, actually have adapted to reflect those communities as they are today? And I'm not sure you can confidently claim that they have. 

Bang. on. the. money.

 

[Gomersall]

34 minutes ago, Damien said:

Interesting. Never heard of Vigoro so that was my new google knowledge search for the day!

Played sweeper for Cagliari in the mid 90s.

[The Masked Poster]

2 hours ago, tiffers said:

Bang. on. the. money.

 

Not necessarily. For example some clubs have tried (Batley and Bradford to name 2) to attract the Asian population but have come up short, they don't seem interested in RL and you can't force them to like something. I wish they did but they don't. 

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Not necessarily. For example some clubs have tried (Batley and Bradford to name 2) to attract the Asian population but have come up short, they don't seem interested in RL and you can't force them to like something. I wish they did but they don't. 

What have they actually done though? Have they gone into those schools with large Asian populations for a sustained period of time? Have they gone into those communities for a sustained time? Have they worked with the leaders and community organisations from those communities?

Or has it just amounted to one offs and a shrug of the shoulders when it hasn't worked?

I'm not being awkward but based on what I have seen most often in RL is the latter and not the former.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Damien

[Eddie]

15 hours ago, Big Picture said:

What do you mean "start to fall behind"?  It's plainly evident that the sport has already fallen well behind its competitors in Britain. 

Rugby league’s only real competitor in Britain is football, it was always going to be behind that. 

[The Masked Poster]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

What have they actually done though? Have they gone into those schools with large Asian populations for a sustained period of time? Have they gone into those communities for a sustained time? Have they worked with the leaders and community organisations from those communities?

Or has it just amounted to one offs and a shrug of the shoulders when it hasn't worked?

I'm not being awkward but based on what I have seen most often in RL is the latter and not the former.

In my experience, those clubs mentioned made fairly serious attempts to engage with the Asian communities in their areas. They had a slight bit of interest with occasional bunches of kids attending games but it didn't last. 

I don't think it's just a case of being lazy here, I genuinely think that they (culturally) are not interested in RL, or Rugby come to that! 

[Gomersall]

8 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Rugby league’s only real competitor in Britain is football, it was always going to be behind that. 

Until the recent implosions union attendances were higher than RL’s. In fact last season’s average without including the big games taken to football stadiums was higher than the SL average.

https://www.cityam.com/premiership-enjoys-attendance-bounce-but-figures-little-for-rugby-to-cheer-about/

[whatmichaelsays]

35 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Not necessarily. For example some clubs have tried (Batley and Bradford to name 2) to attract the Asian population but have come up short, they don't seem interested in RL and you can't force them to like something. I wish they did but they don't. 

 

21 minutes ago, Damien said:

What have they actually done though? Have they gone into those schools with large Asian populations for a sustained period of time? Have they gone into those communities for a sustained time? Have they worked with the leaders and community organisations from those communities?

Or has it just amounted to one offs and a shrug of the shoulders when it hasn't worked?

I'm not being awkward but based on what I have seen most often in RL is the latter and not the former.

I think this is the key thing for me. The communities that our clubs represent have changed significantly around them, but has what RL or the RL clubs offer materially changed to reflect that? 

Do our clubs really have a good handle on the audiences that they want to attract, and what those audiences want from either a day at the RL, or RL content in general? 

Saying things like "we tried reaching the Asian / Polish / Student / Yuppie / Millenial community and they don't care" is a problem on two fronts. Firstly, it seems to suggest that the clubs have just seen this as an issue of promoting themselves to those audiences, without actually understanding and adapting to what it is those audiences want - sticking some posters up in the Student Union and calling it a day is not "reaching out to students". Secondly, "the Asian community" isn't a singular homogenous group where everyone in that group wants, likes, values and behaves in the same way. It's poor segmentation and it's how you end up with situations like Huddersfield believing that the best way to appeal to "Gen X-ers" (as if all "Gen X-ers" are the same) is to just make the ticket cheaper and keep offering the same thing that they always do. 

@The Masked Posteris right to say that you can't force people to like something, but the survival of any business usually depends heavily on how well you can make that "something" into something people like and if the premise of RL as a business is tied into the fact it is embeded in its communities, it needs to recognise that the communities it serves are changing and wanting different things. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by whatmichaelsays

[The Masked Poster]

1 minute ago, whatmichaelsays said:

 

I think this is the key thing for me. The communities that our clubs represent have changed significantly around them, but has what RL or the RL clubs offer materially changed to reflect that? 

Do our clubs really have a good handle on the audiences that they want to attract, and what those audiences want from either a day at the RL, or RL content in general? 

Saying things like "we tried reaching the Asian / Polish / Student / Yuppie / Millenial community and they don't care" is a problem on two fronts. Firstly, it seems to suggest that the clubs have just seen this as an issue of promoting themselves to those audience, without actually understanding and adapting to what it is those audiences want - sticking some posters up in the Student Union and calling it a day is not "reaching out to students". Secondly, "the Asian community" isn't a singular homogenous group where everyone in that group wants, likes, values and behaves in the same way. It's poor segmentation and it's how you end up with situations like Huddersfield believing that the best way to appeal to "Gen X-ers" (as if all "Gen X-ers" are the same) is to just make the ticket cheaper and keep offering the same thing that they always do. 

@The Masked Posteris right to say that you can't force people to like something, but the survival of any business usually depends heavily on how well you can make that "something" into something people like and if the premise of RL as a business is tied into the fact it is embeded in its communities, it needs to recognise that the communities it serves are changing and wanting different things. 

 Agree with you in general. I certainly know that the 'Asian community' tag is a bit of a lazy catch all phrase but I was trying to use a simple term to illustrate the point. I'll use it again though, so apologies...

If the "Asian community" in Bradford didn't get on board when the Bulls were a winning side attracting good crowds, (and don't forget, supposedly had an Asian restaurant owner for a while) they are extremely unlikely to get on board now. And without going political, I do spend a lot of my time in West Yorkshire towns with very high 'Asian' populations and while there might be a handful of people from those communities who like RL, the net gain would be negligible. Of course, this doesn't mean different communities might be interested, just not this one. (Which hopefully doesn't sound offensive) 

[Eddie]

11 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

Until the recent implosions union attendances were higher than RL’s. In fact last season’s average without including the big games taken to football stadiums was higher than the SL average.

https://www.cityam.com/premiership-enjoys-attendance-bounce-but-figures-little-for-rugby-to-cheer-about/

Agreed, but the two sports aren’t competitors, in the main they’re watched by completely different people. 

[Damien]

25 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

In my experience, those clubs mentioned made fairly serious attempts to engage with the Asian communities in their areas. They had a slight bit of interest with occasional bunches of kids attending games but it didn't last. 

I don't think it's just a case of being lazy here, I genuinely think that they (culturally) are not interested in RL, or Rugby come to that! 

In what way though? That is what I was asking. Serious attempts is extremely vague and meaningless. If there was slight interest then I suggest that they didn't try for long enough to capitalise on that. Again there could have been slight interest on the back of a couple of one offs which would have been pretty good.

I certainly agree that this is difficult and that there are cultural barriers to overcome. I just doubt that Bradford or Batley have really done close to what it would take nor would have/or choose to divert the necessary resources. That isn't to knock them as it is a problem with many RL clubs. I also believe the RFL has a role to play here too so it's far from a dig at those two clubs.

[Lowdesert]

37 minutes ago, Damien said:

What have they actually done though? Have they gone into those schools with large Asian populations for a sustained period of time? Have they gone into those communities for a sustained time? Have they worked with the leaders and community organisations from those communities?

Or has it just amounted to one offs and a shrug of the shoulders when it hasn't worked?

I'm not being awkward but based on what I have seen most often in RL is the latter and not the former.

Development officers did go into these places though.  Once the DO’s started to be dropped and Clubs took over the RL/school relationships were never the same for, imo, two main reasons.

Most of the development officers I knew were passionate about getting kids playing and for little money. Players being told to go into schools saw it as a more PR chore.

Clubs employed people with sports science quals on their way up the ladder, again for little money, but the Club/School or College relationships soon became fragmented when that person quickly moved on for better paying roles.

 

[17 stone giant]

6 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So you suggest playing games in places where nobody really knows or cares about the sport ? , and this would require renting hugely expensive stadiums and players already contracted to existing clubs risking injury?

Let's say that my aim is to have the first new tournament in five years time, what I would do in those four years is take some Super League or Challenge Cup games on the road to my target cities. I would have a plan of introducing the sport and marketing it to a new audience, so that by the time the tournament was up and running, it wouldn't be a completely clueless and cold audience, so to speak.

With regards to injury, there would need to be insurance cover in the same way that I presume happens when players are selected to play for England.

As for stadium rental, many big cities have more than one stadium, so there are options regarding what size you go for initially. But, yeah, you're right that you would need some money to get things up and running. I'm not pretending otherwise.

[The Masked Poster]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

In what way though? That is what I was asking. Serious attempts is extremely vague and meaningless. If there was slight interest then I suggest that they didn't try for long enough to capitalise on that. Again there could have been slight interest on the back of a couple of one offs which would have been pretty good.

I certainly agree that this is difficult and that there are cultural barriers to overcome. I just doubt that Bradford or Batley have really done close to what it would take nor would have/or choose to divert the necessary resources. That isn't to knock them as it is a problem with many RL clubs. I also believe the RFL has a role to play here too so it's far from a dig at those two clubs.

I mean having like "come and try RL" days at local clubs and schools, where they had fun versions of RL for the kids to try. Bradford definitely tried this as one of my friends was involved. 

But yes, resources are a problem and it is extremely unlikely (IMO) that RL will ever make an impact in those communities. Even football hasn't had that much impact given its popularity. 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Development officers did go into these places though.  Once the DO’s started to be dropped and Clubs took over the RL/school relationships were never the same for, imo, two main reasons.

Most of the development officers I knew were passionate about getting kids playing and for little money. Players being told to go into schools saw it as a more PR chore.

Clubs employed people with sports science quals on their way up the ladder, again for little money, but the Club/School or College relationships soon became fragmented when that person quickly moved on for better paying roles.

So far from anything sustained. I mean this is pretty much the story of failed RL development across the country.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Damien

[Just Browny]

Whenever I see West Yorkshire clubs doing anything to reach out to non-white local populations, I see a lot of the 'traditional' fanbase moaning in internet comments about the clubs going 'woke' or saying it's a game for local people. It doesn't give the impression of a welcoming sport; in fact it makes me want to sob.

[whatmichaelsays]

31 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

 Agree with you in general. I certainly know that the 'Asian community' tag is a bit of a lazy catch all phrase but I was trying to use a simple term to illustrate the point. I'll use it again though, so apologies...

If the "Asian community" in Bradford didn't get on board when the Bulls were a winning side attracting good crowds, (and don't forget, supposedly had an Asian restaurant owner for a while) they are extremely unlikely to get on board now. And without going political, I do spend a lot of my time in West Yorkshire towns with very high 'Asian' populations and while there might be a handful of people from those communities who like RL, the net gain would be negligible. Of course, this doesn't mean different communities might be interested, just not this one. (Which hopefully doesn't sound offensive) 

I don't doubt that there are some cultural challenges and you will never be all things to all people, but the principle still stands that if we are a community sport not offering what the community wants - or at least, assuming that the community is and wants the same that it wanted a generation ago - then there is a challenge there. But that's why it's important for clubs to really hone in on the audiences they think they can reach and develop the product for that segment - if the answer to attracting one audience is a Toronto-style beer festival, then the trade-off is that isn't likely to increase our appeal to the Asian market and it's up to clubs to work out who they want through the door, and how they can get them. 

We also shouldn't just look at this through the prism of match-going fans and match attendances, but in the context of any sort of engagement with or consumption of RL. 

You also won't find a lot of people from the Asian community at a lot of Premier League or EFL football stadiums, yet if you go to any five-a-side football centre in any major city, you will see an awful lot of players from that background playing - so there is clearly an interest in the sport, even if they're indugling that interest in a different way. 

That same principle applies to other groups RL might want/need to reach. Young people currently find it difficult to get into Premier League football grounds (due to ticket price and/or tickets usually being held behind membership or loyalty programmes), so they consume football differently - digital and social media for example. That's an area where RL is particularly poor, even though we have no shortage of good content. 

I've said it on previous threads, but RL is incredibly difficult to "buy" or follow if you aren't in the heartlands. It was almost impossible for me to follow Leeds in a meaningful way when I was living away from West Yorkshire if a game wasn't televised - often the best I could do was text updates on the club Twitter feed, or a Radio Leeds stream that jumped from ground to ground. That's a real barrier to audiences when we have had a generation of more transient and mobile populations. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by whatmichaelsays

[gingerjon]

I remember a very considered and thoughtful article in the City Gent fanzine in the 1990s lamenting that Bradford City would just have to accept that nobody in the BME community (as then termed) would ever watch them play whilst cricket exists.

I think about it a lot when I see how, about ten years ago, City made a concerted and proactive effort to get people from those communities involved and the turnaround they have managed to achieve.

No magic wand. No short cuts. No guarantee of success. But obvious commitment and hard work.

No wonder rugby league doesn’t want to learn from it.

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, Just Browny said:

Whenever I see West Yorkshire clubs doing anything to reach out to non-white local populations, I see a lot of the 'traditional' fanbase moaning in internet comments about the clubs going 'woke' or saying it's a game for local people. It doesn't give the impression of a welcoming sport; in fact it makes me want to sob.

This unwelcoming attitude is not new and certainly doesn't apply to people based on racial lines. Many RL fans are simply too closed minded to accept others outside the "heartlands" get it. They absolutely think it's a genetic thing and outsiders just aren't interested (or welcome)

[tiffers]

3 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

Not necessarily. For example some clubs have tried (Batley and Bradford to name 2) to attract the Asian population but have come up short, they don't seem interested in RL and you can't force them to like something. I wish they did but they don't. 

I think it's very naïve to come to those conclusions quite so easily. To say some people don't 'seem' interested is to not understand them at all.

That is assuming they aren't interested because we (on our terms) went to try and engage a particular group and they didn't behave in the way we wanted.

If we don't understand values, culture, motivators, drivers of groups of people then we are at best going to (by chance) have them engage with us. Significantly more likely is that they won't engage because we aren't relatable to them and their lives/wants/needs/desires.

When we understand more about our audiences we will be far better positioned to harness that to appeal and build our products to serve them best.

[Griff]

18 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

My first step would be a rugby league equivalent of The Hundred in cricket. Big city teams for a month long competition. I'd get the NRL to invest in it, or at least be partners in it.

Say 100 tackles each in fifteen sets of six and one of ten.

[17 stone giant]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

Say 100 tackles each in fifteen sets of six and one of ten.

That's right, yes. And if you push the ball carrier into touch (or over the boundary as it will be known), you get four points for your team.

[Griff]

22 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

That's right, yes. And if you push the ball carrier into touch (or over the boundary as it will be known), you get four points for your team.

I'd vote for that.

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, tiffers said:

I think it's very naïve to come to those conclusions quite so easily. To say some people don't 'seem' interested is to not understand them at all.

That is assuming they aren't interested because we (on our terms) went to try and engage a particular group and they didn't behave in the way we wanted.

If we don't understand values, culture, motivators, drivers of groups of people then we are at best going to (by chance) have them engage with us. Significantly more likely is that they won't engage because we aren't relatable to them and their lives/wants/needs/desires.

When we understand more about our audiences we will be far better positioned to harness that to appeal and build our products to serve them best.

It wasn't arrived at "suddenly". The time I'm referring to is about 1996/97 and a few years after that. And I certainly aren't naive, not enough so to think you can force people to like something.

You can try from now till the end of time to harness your appeal to a particular market but if it's not appealing in the first place, then it's all immaterial as it's wasted effort.

There aren't enough people in, say, Batley, Bradford or Oldham interested in RL to begin with, why other groups of people would become interested is fanciful.