(Yet another) restructuring thread

[Barley Mow]

I usually avoid proposing re-structurings of our hierarchy. We get a lot of these threads of varying degrees of sensibleness and they can get a bit tiring.

But the loss of clubs meaning L1 is down to eight prompts me to make this suggestion:

Super League

14 teams - each play everyone else twice (home and away). With or without Magic Weekend - I can take it or leave it. Giving 26 or 27 matches, then the play-offs.

Championship

The remaining 20 clubs, separated into two groups geographically:

West - Workington, Whitehaven, Barrow, Widnes, Swinton, Rochdale, Oldham, Keighley, North Wales, Cornwall.

East - York, Hunslet, Batley, Dewsbury, Bradford, Halifax, Sheffield, Doncaster, Midlands - the final team being one of Wakefield/Toulouse/London/Featherstone, depending on which three are in the SL 14.

Keighley and Midlands could be swapped over if the Bradford-Keighley derby is seen as more important than trying to balance the amount of travel.

Clubs would play everyone in their group twice (home and away) - 18 matches.

The top 5 from each group would then form a conference of 10 team. Points from matches played against the other 4 from your own group would be carried forward (8 matches worth of points) - teams then play the 5 teams transferred from the other group home and away (10 matches) to give the final table for the conference. Play-offs then follow for the top teams.

The bottom 5 from each group would form a similar conference of ten, either playing for their own trophy or for the top team to be a 'wild card' entrant into the main play-offs.

This gives 28 matches each plus play-offs.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Rovers13]

2 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I usually avoid proposing re-structurings of our hierarchy. We get a lot of these threads of varying degrees of sensibleness and they can get a bit tiring.

But the loss of clubs meaning L1 is down to eight prompts me to make this suggestion:

Super League

14 teams - each play everyone else twice (home and away). With or without Magic Weekend - I can take it or leave it. Giving 26 or 27 matches, then the play-offs.

Championship

The remaining 20 clubs, separated into two groups geographically:

West - Workington, Whitehaven, Barrow, Widnes, Swinton, Rochdale, Oldham, Keighley, North Wales, Cornwall.

East - York, Hunslet, Batley, Dewsbury, Bradford, Halifax, Sheffield Doncaster, Midlands - the final team being one of Wakefield/Toulouse/London/Featherstone, depending on which three are in the SL 14.

Keighley and Midlands could be swapped over if the Bradford-Keighley derby is seen as more important than trying to balance the amount of travel.

Clubs would play everyone in their group twice (home and away) - 18 matches.

The top 5 from each group would then form a conference of 10 team. Points from matches played against the other 4 from your own group would be carried forward (8 matches worth of points) - teams then play the 5 teams transferred from the other group home and away (10 matches) to give the final table for the conference. Play-offs then follow for the top teams.

The bottom 5 from each group would form a similar conference of ten, either playing for their own trophy or for the top team to be a 'wild card' entrant into the main play-offs.

This gives 28 matches each plus play-offs.

This is all well and good but you’re suggesting SL clubs take more cuts to accommodate 2 more clubs which won’t happen tbf. 

[Barley Mow]

Just now, Rovers13 said:

This is all well and good but you’re suggesting SL clubs take more cuts to accommodate 2 more clubs which won’t happen tbf. 

Yes, funding is always the problem.

We're going to continue to lose clubs though if they don't bite the bullet.

[Rovers13]

3 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Yes, funding is always the problem.

We're going to continue to lose clubs though if they don't bite the bullet.

I’ve no answers like majority tbh and I don’t think IMG have the answers yet either or ever will but we had to bring outside thoughts in because inside thoughts were getting us no where tbh. 

[OdsalBull]

18 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I usually avoid proposing re-structurings of our hierarchy. We get a lot of these threads of varying degrees of sensibleness and they can get a bit tiring.

But the loss of clubs meaning L1 is down to eight prompts me to make this suggestion:

Super League

14 teams - each play everyone else twice (home and away). With or without Magic Weekend - I can take it or leave it. Giving 26 or 27 matches, then the play-offs.

Championship

The remaining 20 clubs, separated into two groups geographically:

West - Workington, Whitehaven, Barrow, Widnes, Swinton, Rochdale, Oldham, Keighley, North Wales, Cornwall.

East - York, Hunslet, Batley, Dewsbury, Bradford, Halifax, Sheffield, Doncaster, Midlands - the final team being one of Wakefield/Toulouse/London/Featherstone, depending on which three are in the SL 14.

Keighley and Midlands could be swapped over if the Bradford-Keighley derby is seen as more important than trying to balance the amount of travel.

Clubs would play everyone in their group twice (home and away) - 18 matches.

The top 5 from each group would then form a conference of 10 team. Points from matches played against the other 4 from your own group would be carried forward (8 matches worth of points) - teams then play the 5 teams transferred from the other group home and away (10 matches) to give the final table for the conference. Play-offs then follow for the top teams.

The bottom 5 from each group would form a similar conference of ten, either playing for their own trophy or for the top team to be a 'wild card' entrant into the main play-offs.

This gives 28 matches each plus play-offs.

Why would it be Fev in SL. That ship has sailed 

[Barley Mow]

3 minutes ago, OdsalBull said:

Why would it be Fev in SL. That ship has sailed 

You'd have the top 11 from this year plus the play-off winner (Toulouse or London). That gives 12.

The remaining two would come from Wakefield (the relegated team), London/Toulouse (defeated finalists) or Fev (League Leaders) - all three have failed to make the 12 for next year, we would need two of these three 'losers' to get to 14 - league leaders doesn't automatically strike me as not being an option compared to the others.

Alternatively, we could use the indicative IMG scores to select the 14.

[Rovers13]

9 minutes ago, OdsalBull said:

Why would it be Fev in SL. That ship has sailed 

Well it definitely won’t be your lot playing in a farmers field

[OdsalBull]

5 minutes ago, Rovers13 said:

Well it definitely won’t be your lot playing in a farmers field

Lets see Rovers, hopefully one day your lot will play one game in the promised land

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

28 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I usually avoid proposing re-structurings of our hierarchy. We get a lot of these threads of varying degrees of sensibleness and they can get a bit tiring.

But the loss of clubs meaning L1 is down to eight prompts me to make this suggestion:

Super League

14 teams - each play everyone else twice (home and away). With or without Magic Weekend - I can take it or leave it. Giving 26 or 27 matches, then the play-offs.

Championship

The remaining 20 clubs, separated into two groups geographically:

West - Workington, Whitehaven, Barrow, Widnes, Swinton, Rochdale, Oldham, Keighley, North Wales, Cornwall.

East - York, Hunslet, Batley, Dewsbury, Bradford, Halifax, Sheffield, Doncaster, Midlands - the final team being one of Wakefield/Toulouse/London/Featherstone, depending on which three are in the SL 14.

Keighley and Midlands could be swapped over if the Bradford-Keighley derby is seen as more important than trying to balance the amount of travel.

Clubs would play everyone in their group twice (home and away) - 18 matches.

The top 5 from each group would then form a conference of 10 team. Points from matches played against the other 4 from your own group would be carried forward (8 matches worth of points) - teams then play the 5 teams transferred from the other group home and away (10 matches) to give the final table for the conference. Play-offs then follow for the top teams.

The bottom 5 from each group would form a similar conference of ten, either playing for their own trophy or for the top team to be a 'wild card' entrant into the main play-offs.

This gives 28 matches each plus play-offs.

What happens when the next couple of clubs inevitably disappear? We can't keep restructuring - the game should decide how long the season should be and then create a format that provides that number of games without being dependent on a precise number of clubs. Football can have home and away fixture lists because they've got tons of full time clubs. Cricket can have home and away (I'm not even sure if they do anymore) because all of the clubs in the structure are completely underwritten by the central funding. Rugby union are in a similar boat to league, and are struggling with clubs disappearing as well (Jersey, Wasps, Worcester, London Irish in the past year or so). I think we need to be a bit more pragmatic/realistic about the state of our club game when devising future competition structures.

[Rovers13]

Just now, OdsalBull said:

Lets see Rovers, hopefully one day your lot will play one game in the promised land

It was a joke hence the laughing emoji’s I hope one day all clubs outside top flight get to play SL rugby at some point. 

[OdsalBull]

8 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

You'd have the top 11 from this year plus the play-off winner (Toulouse or London). That gives 12.

The remaining two would come from Wakefield (the relegated team), London/Toulouse (defeated finalists) or Fev (League Leaders) - all three have failed to make the 12 for next year, we would need two of these three 'losers' to get to 14 - league leaders doesn't automatically strike me as not being an option compared to the others.

Alternatively, we could use the indicative IMG scores to select the 14.

Either don't relegate wakefield and send the two finalists up or use the scores. Whatever way you want to do it = No Fev

P.s. FWIW I think you're right, we need to do something can't have an 8 team league 

[OdsalBull]

Just now, Rovers13 said:

It was a joke hence the laughing emoji’s I hope one day all clubs outside top flight get to play SL rugby at some point. 

Me too, good luck!

 

[phiggins]

36 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Yes, funding is always the problem.

We're going to continue to lose clubs though if they don't bite the bullet.

I'd like to see us move to 14 teams and get rid of loop fixtures. But would the TV deal add more complications to that, with Sky agreeing to production of all games? Imagine they have agreed to that on the basis of 6 games a week?

[Barley Mow]

12 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

What happens when the next couple of clubs inevitably disappear? We can't keep restructuring - the game should decide how long the season should be and then create a format that provides that number of games without being dependent on a precise number of clubs. Football can have home and away fixture lists because they've got tons of full time clubs. Cricket can have home and away (I'm not even sure if they do anymore) because all of the clubs in the structure are completely underwritten by the central funding. Rugby union are in a similar boat to league, and are struggling with clubs disappearing as well (Jersey, Wasps, Worcester, London Irish in the past year or so). I think we need to be a bit more pragmatic/realistic about the state of our club game when devising future competition structures.

Interesting point, worth considering just setting the number of matches per season and then fitting the number of clubs too it.

8 or 9 in a division though doesn't work - too many repeat fixtures.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Barley Mow

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

8 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Interesting point, worth considering just setting the number of matches per season and then fitting the number of clubs too it.

8 or 9 in a division though doesn't work - too many repeat fixtures.

Hugely successful comps like the NRL and NFL manage to not have balanced H&A fixture lists, so I don't see why we need to be wedded to it. Especially seeing as our champions are decided via a grand final, and P&R is now going to be via a criteria-based points system.

[crashmon]

I hope I am wrong but I don't think Thunder will be the last club to fold before 2024 season starts.

[The 4 of Us]

14 team SL yes. Asap but getting the turkeys to share their Christmas dinner means it won’t happen next year at least.

Otherwise, I’d allow Wakefield to stay in and invite both finalists on Sunday to join as well.

SL needs to bite the bullet asap but I suspect budgets are so tight that the loss of £100K or so from central funds would push a number close to, if not over the edge. 

As for the divisions below, there’s a reason they are split aa they are and that’s the chalk and cheese difference with ability on the pitch.

RL learned long ago that 30 clubs in the same division didn’t work for that very reason. 
 

 

[Catflap]

25 minutes ago, OdsalBull said:

Either don't relegate wakefield and send the two finalists up or use the scores. Whatever way you want to do it = No Fev

P.s. FWIW I think you're right, we need to do something can't have an 8 team league 

Bulls fans make me laugh, you really can't stand being a mediocre team can you and looking at your sqaud, it'll be same again next year. You're just not happy unless you're slinging mud at Fev so your little team that play on a muddy field and dusty terracing look more superior.

Like Fev or not, the club have proven that they're more then capable of attracting good players and putting a strong team on the field and should they get a SL opportunity via the back door, I have no doubt they would field a competitive team.The league table doesn't lie, you can't deny Fev were by far the best team in the league over this season.

[Barley Mow]

3 minutes ago, The 4 of Us said:

14 team SL yes. Asap but getting the turkeys to share their Christmas dinner means it won’t happen next year at least.

Otherwise, I’d allow Wakefield to stay in and invite both finalists on Sunday to join as well.

SL needs to bite the bullet asap but I suspect budgets are so tight that the loss of £100K or so from central funds would push a number close to, if not over the edge. 

As for the divisions below, there’s a reason they are split aa they are and that’s the chalk and cheese difference with ability on the pitch.

RL learned long ago that 30 clubs in the same division didn’t work for that very reason. 
 

 

In terms of the difference in standard between the 20 championship clubs in my proposal - the idea is to ensure that clubs do play those which they are closest to in terms of ability, but also don't have to play those clubs three or four times to get enough matches for the season to be worthwhile.

Each club would play the other nine in their (playing-standard based) conference home and away. They would also play five who aren't in that standard bracket home and away - but these will include local derbys, which fans generally like to see.

[OdsalBull]

5 minutes ago, Catflap said:

Bulls fans make me laugh, you really can't stand being a mediocre team can you and looking at your sqaud, it'll be same again next year. You're just not happy unless you're slinging mud at Fev so your little team that play on a muddy field and dusty terracing look more superior.

Like Fev or not, the club have proven that they're more then capable of attracting good players and putting a strong team on the field and should they get a SL opportunity via the back door, I have no doubt they would field a competitive team.The league table doesn't lie, you can't deny Fev were by far the best team in the league over this season.

Ha ha ha too easy. See you next season 

[paulwalker71]

11 minutes ago, crashmon said:

I hope I am wrong but I don't think Thunder will be the last club to fold before 2024 season starts.

I don't know if you have info or are just guessing, but I **hope** (with zero confidence) that the RFL will get ahead of this and have urgent talks with all the clubs to ascertain viability. 

We're going to get nowhere just sitting back and waiting for more clubs to hit the buffers...

[Archie Gordon]

As always, the actual numbers in each division hardly matter.

Start with:

What is the purpose/function of SL?

What is the purpose/function of Champ?

What is the purpose/function of L1?

The exact numbers in each league are a trifling matter.

[ChristianB]

League One and Championship have to come together now. No need for teams to play each other twice - just once will do.

Championship clubs will have to come to terms with the change, and L1 clubs that they won't get any more cash than they would have for the 2024 season.

Sure, there will be a gulf between top and bottom to begin with, but the survival prospects of many clubs in both heartlands and the hinterlands will improve.

[phiggins]

23 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

As always, the actual numbers in each division hardly matter.

Start with:

What is the purpose/function of SL?

What is the purpose/function of Champ?

What is the purpose/function of L1?

The exact numbers in each league are a trifling matter.

Absolutely. And also purpose / function of Full time RL, part time RL, and how it complements the amateur game. 

Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be tackled by the IMG proposals, which I think is in danger of becoming a counter productive box ticking exercise. But when the indicative scores are out, or when the first official grades are given, there needs to be honest conversations between the governing body and the B graded clubs to assess exactly how far they are away from being a full time organisation. Only once that is done can the sport move towards having a full time competition, with part time clubs being given guidance on what criteria needs to be met to apply to join the full time comp.

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Rovers13 said:

It was a joke hence the laughing emoji’s I hope one day all clubs outside top flight get to play SL rugby at some point. 

They all have that opportunity already . Leigh have just done that very thing and either  Toulouse or London will be there next season.

Edited October 13, 2023 by JohnM