England v Tonga series

[Damien]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Let's be honest, it's been a really poor performance from the RFL so far. But we should look at the potential here - the reality is that if we don't make these work then it's going to be a very tough time for England RL. 

If we get between 40 and 50k, taht isn't a disaster (it's disappointing, sure), but it's almost your starting point. With things like continuity, better ground selection, better scheduling, better narrative and promotion, work on sponsorship and corporates etc then it feels like there is absolutely opportunity for growth. 

One thing I was thinking here too is that we used to have a model that saw us have games on Sky and then highlights on BBC. I do wonder whether visibility would be affected much tbh and I think going into the more commercial market would guarantee financial security of these games. I say that reluctantly, because I love the BBC showing our games live, but I do wonder whether it's a bit of a vanity thing. 

So whilst this series may end up underwhelming, for me, it shows potential. 

The ground selection thing just really pisses me off because its so obvious.

I firmly believe even if we'd have had Wigan instead of Saints we'd have been looking at around 20k for that game. Outside the big football stadiums Wigan always gets big crowds for internationals and is criminally underused. There hasn't even been an international attendance less than 20k at the DW, even against PNG and France. Saints is always poor enough and had plenty of games in the World Cup too.

I can cope with Headingley, if the RFL are really that risk averse that they dont want to use Elland Road. However pretty much anywhere could do better than what Huddersfield looks like. We all knew beforehand that would be the case. Just a couple of small changes and 50k would be very easily achieved in my opinion without taking huge risks.

As you say the potential is obvious and we are way off fulfilling it.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Damien

[gingerjon]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Let's be honest, it's been a really poor performance from the RFL so far. But we should look at the potential here - the reality is that if we don't make these work then it's going to be a very tough time for England RL. 

If we get between 40 and 50k, taht isn't a disaster (it's disappointing, sure), but it's almost your starting point. With things like continuity, better ground selection, better scheduling, better narrative and promotion, work on sponsorship and corporates etc then it feels like there is absolutely opportunity for growth. 

One thing I was thinking here too is that we used to have a model that saw us have games on Sky and then highlights on BBC. I do wonder whether visibility would be affected much tbh and I think going into the more commercial market would guarantee financial security of these games. I say that reluctantly, because I love the BBC showing our games live, but I do wonder whether it's a bit of a vanity thing. 

So whilst this series may end up underwhelming, for me, it shows potential. 

No, this is the laying foundations myth repeated again.

There are no new foundations to lay. They've been laid multiple times. Calling this half baked series the beginning of anything is pretending that there is any plan to grow out. And the attendances really do look like being a disaster. The fact that it's been anticipated like a slow motion car crash for months doesn't stop it from being a disaster just because it was seen coming.

Lastly, if Sky, or anyone else, wanted to buy the international rights they would. They've done it before. We're on the BBC because that's who is willing to show he games.

Edited October 25, 2023 by gingerjon

[JM2010]

On a bright note. I really enjoyed last weekend’s game and am happy there is international RL being played both here and down under 

[Chrispmartha]

10 minutes ago, Damien said:

The ground selection thing just really pisses me off because its so obvious.

I firmly believe even if we'd have had Wigan instead of Saints we'd have been looking at around 20k for that game. Outside the big football stadiums Wigan always gets big crowds for internationals and is criminally underused. There hasn't even been an international attendance less than 20k at the DW, even against PNG and France. Saints is always poor enough and had plenty of games in the World Cup too.

I can cope with Headingley, if the RFL are really that risk averse that they dont want to use Elland Road. However pretty much anywhere could do better than what Huddersfield looks like. We all knew beforehand that would be the case. Just a couple of small changes and 50k would be very easily achieved in my opinion without taking huge risks.

As you say the potential is obvious and we are way off fulfilling it.

I think Huddersfield might have been OK if it had been the first test, to have two within ten miles or so on consecutive weeks is just daft, I also agree about the JJB, Headingley is fine and will be a great venue with 17-18k in there I don't think Elland road was viable for this series.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

10 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

On a bright note. I really enjoyed last weekend’s game and am happy there is international RL being played both here and down under 

Oi! Stop with the positivity! I'll report you if you carry on being too happy! 

[Chris22]

I'll keep repeating it, there is no history in this country of an England match drawing 20K consistently for non World Cup matches against Tier 2 nations.

I understand people may find that disappointing but I do not understand why people are surprised.

We need these events to appeal to people who may not conventionally attend. Tonga is a nation few have heard of outside of rugby circles. They are a new force in the international game and I do think it will take time to build that awareness.

If the Samoa series happens next year, we should then be aiming for better than this.

We have effectively had to start again due to Australian intransigence and no end of season international rugby in the UK from the end of 2018 to the end of 2022.

 

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

We need these events to appeal to people who may not conventionally attend.

Actually impossible to do based on the venues chosen for this series.

Hence why any discussion about laying a foundation or strategy for growing out is an absolute nonsense.

[JM2010]

2 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

I'll keep repeating it, there is no history in this country of an England match drawing 20K consistently for non World Cup matches against Tier 2 nations.

I understand people may find that disappointing but I do not understand why people are surprised.

We need these events to appeal to people who may not conventionally attend. Tonga is a nation few have heard of outside of rugby circles. They are a new force in the international game and I do think it will take time to build that awareness.

If the Samoa series happens next year, we should then be aiming for better than this.

We have effectively had to start again due to Australian intransigence and no end of season international rugby in the UK from the end of 2018 to the end of 2022.

 

Exactly. Use this series to promote the next and start building up international RL again. 
The reason why international RU is in a better state is that they have a plan and stick to it and have gradually built their international game

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

I'll keep repeating it, there is no history in this country of an England match drawing 20K consistently for non World Cup matches against Tier 2 nations.

I understand people may find that disappointing but I do not understand why people are surprised.

We need these events to appeal to people who may not conventionally attend. Tonga is a nation few have heard of outside of rugby circles. They are a new force in the international game and I do think it will take time to build that awareness.

If the Samoa series happens next year, we should then be aiming for better than this.

We have effectively had to start again due to Australian intransigence and no end of season international rugby in the UK from the end of 2018 to the end of 2022.

 

Keep repeating something doesn't make it valid.

We never play tier 2 nations in proper, meaningful games outside of World Cups. The only time we play them is in World Cups so its a bit of a daft argument to make. Playing mid season internationals at Leigh and Warrington, against teams that often can barely scrape a team together, is a less valid comparison to a Test series against Tonga than what a World Cup game is in my opinion.

Your line of thinking is just excusing incompetence and this build slowly, small steps attitude is why international RL goes no where.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Damien

[Dave T]

26 minutes ago, Damien said:

The ground selection thing just really pisses me off because its so obvious.

I firmly believe even if we'd have had Wigan instead of Saints we'd have been looking at around 20k for that game. Outside the big football stadiums Wigan always gets big crowds for internationals and is criminally underused. There hasn't even been an international attendance less than 20k at the DW, even against PNG and France. Saints is always poor enough and had plenty of games in the World Cup too.

I can cope with Headingley, if the RFL are really that risk averse that they dont want to use Elland Road. However pretty much anywhere could do better than what Huddersfield looks like. We all knew beforehand that would be the case. Just a couple of small changes and 50k would be very easily achieved in my opinion without taking huge risks.

As you say the potential is obvious and we are way off fulfilling it.

I think I'm in the minority here, but I really like Huddersfield as the Yorkshire choice - I think it's a lovely looking ground and has staged many great international games. But it doesn't work when you have one at Leeds the week later. 

I thought we had gone past all this and established a clear model of Yorkshire, Lancashire and London. It works, and deviating from that set the scene from the very start.

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

No, this is the laying foundations myth repeated again.

There are no new foundations to lay. They've been laid multiple times. Calling this half baked series the beginning of anything is pretending that there is any plan to grow out. And the attendances really do look like being a disaster. The fact that it's been anticipated like a slow motion car crash for months doesn't stop it from being a disaster just because it was seen coming.

Lastly, if Sky, or anyone else, wanted to buy the international rights they would. They've done it before. We're on the BBC because that's who is willing to show he games.

Admittedly there may be an element of trying to see the positive here, but there absolutely is a new world feel to this. In the past we have always been able to rely on the 'big' two for internationals so haven't had to grow these games. It can't be ignored that this is literally the first time we have had a series like this. It is historic - England have only played Tonga three times in their entire history (and I think a couple of those were A team games) - and we are now playing each other three times in a fortnight. 

None of the above excuses poor performance, and I don;t think my post did so. But I suppose it is a plea not to kill this, but to do them better next time.

And I completely disagree on the Sky point - go back to around 2010 and we actively moved 4N games away from Sky Sports and put them on the BBC. For a year or two the tournaments were shared but the BBC got the best games. Eventually Sky backed out and the BBC took the whole tournaments. I think that was a good strategic decision from the RFL at that time as it was very much around securing terrestrial coverage - but for a long time Sky showed international RL (and still show our mid-season France games for example).

[The Hallucinating Goose]

10 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Exactly. Use this series to promote the next and start building up international RL again. 
The reason why international RU is in a better state is that they have a plan and stick to it and have gradually built their international game

I know it's not going to happen but it would have been good to have announced the Samoa series during this one, maybe just before the last game so the presenters in the build up or at halftime could talk about it a bit. Still, too simple for the RFL that isn't it? 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think I'm in the minority here, but I really like Huddersfield as the Yorkshire choice - I think it's a lovely looking ground and has staged many great international games. But it doesn't work when you have one at Leeds the week later. 

I thought we had gone past all this and established a clear model of Yorkshire, Lancashire and London. It works, and deviating from that set the scene from the very start.

I was always very cynical about Huddersfield before I went for the first time in 2016 and loved it. Packed ground, great atmosphere, great game, close to town centre, easy walk from train station, direct train to Hull in just over an hour. It was gonna be my choice for this series until my plans changed which meant I can't go to any games. 

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Actually impossible to do based on the venues chosen for this series.

Hence why any discussion about laying a foundation or strategy for growing out is an absolute nonsense.

Yeah this is getting to my previous point. What about these matches would make someone in London or Newcastle go to a test series next year? Nothing. Even if one was in London or Newcastle they would be no more likely to go than this year.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

And I completely disagree on the Sky point - go back to around 2010 and we actively moved 4N games away from Sky Sports and put them on the BBC. For a year or two the tournaments were shared but the BBC got the best games. Eventually Sky backed out and the BBC took the whole tournaments. I think that was a good strategic decision from the RFL at that time as it was very much around securing terrestrial coverage - but for a long time Sky showed international RL (and still show our mid-season France games for example).

There is nothing to stop Sky bidding for the games. Nothing to stop anyone bidding for them.

[Just Browny]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think I'm in the minority here, but I really like Huddersfield as the Yorkshire choice - I think it's a lovely looking ground and has staged many great international games. But it doesn't work when you have one at Leeds the week later. 

I thought we had gone past all this and established a clear model of Yorkshire, Lancashire and London. It works, and deviating from that set the scene from the very start.

On Huddersfield v Leeds, it is a toss-up: just don't have both.

Leeds is, Western Terrace aside, a nicer set-up for fans attending and you've got a big local fanbase who will turn up for games. Huddersfield's stadium is slightly more TV-aesthetic and slightly easier to get to from both sides of the Pennines. And handy for the train. Leeds feels more like an RL ground than a rented football ground: even when the Giants are at home they just have a wee marquee and a few signs blu-tacked up.

[Dave T]

18 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

I'll keep repeating it, there is no history in this country of an England match drawing 20K consistently for non World Cup matches against Tier 2 nations.

I understand people may find that disappointing but I do not understand why people are surprised.

We need these events to appeal to people who may not conventionally attend. Tonga is a nation few have heard of outside of rugby circles. They are a new force in the international game and I do think it will take time to build that awareness.

If the Samoa series happens next year, we should then be aiming for better than this.

We have effectively had to start again due to Australian intransigence and no end of season international rugby in the UK from the end of 2018 to the end of 2022.

 

It sort of matches my view here, but we do need to be careful not to set the bar too low based on the first line. That can;t keep being a get out clause.

In 1995 we got 26k in Central Park for a game against Fiji.

In 2013 we got 45k v the Aussies at Cardiffn and 67k versus NZ in London.

We also got 24k v Ireland at Hudds, 23k v Fiji in Hull, we've had 22k v France in Wigan, 22k v PNG in Wigan, 44k v the Kiwis in London, 21k versus Scotland in Coventry, 2 x 40k+ crowds v Samoa last year and so on.

Sure most were RLWC games, but let's not pretend that RLWC is a strong brand that guarantees good crowds. 

If we do these things right, we absolutely should be getting 20k+ for each game of this series - but we actually names 2 grounds that can't even hold 20k.

This absolutely has to be a stepping stone to bigger and bolder things in future.

 

[Damien]

This whole laying the foundations talk is complete nonsense and completely the wrong mindset. International Rugby League grew exponentially is the late 1980's/early 1990's by going away from the bog standard grounds and moving to Wembley, Old Trafford and Elland Road. We'd been doing the whole small steps, safe options for years prior with the same results. RL administrators thought big and reaped the results.

Play games in small towns and/or small SL grounds next year and we get the same results. There is no real growth to be found in this small steps approach because going to such games does not appeal to many non RL fans, and seemingly many RL fans too.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

There is nothing to stop Sky bidding for the games. Nothing to stop anyone bidding for them.

The RFL decide who they are selling to and they actively chose terrestrial coverage. We saw it happen with our own eyes. 

It's not unlike another similar sport who could get far, far more for their 6N tournament with Sky, and may end up going there again, but are holding onto terrestrial coverage. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

This whole laying the foundations talk is complete nonsense and completely the wrong mindset. International Rugby League grew exponentially is the late 1980's/early 1990's by going away from the bog standard grounds and moving to Wembley, Old Trafford and Elland Road. We'd been doing the whole small steps, safe options for years prior with the same results. RL administrators thought big and reaped the results.

Play games in small towns and/or small SL grounds next year and we get the same results. There is no real growth to be found in this small steps approach because going to such games does not appeal to many non RL fans, and seemingly many RL fans too.

I think my post has been misconstrued. I certainly haven't celebrated laying a foundation, and have been pretty clear in my contempt for the RFL and their approach here. 

But there are two things that now happen. 

a) We accept that a 40k total attendance and no sponsors is a disaster and sack these tours off.

or

b ) we look at that realise that we did it really poorly and there is a hell of a lot of growth in it from this level and we go harder next time.

The answer absolutely HAS to be B, but I worry we are heading towards A.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Dave T

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

On a bright note. I really enjoyed last weekend’s game and am happy there is international RL being played both here and down under 

On another bright note it was really interesting and enjoyable to read in the following article some of the permutations that may occur in the world rankings following the current international round. In particular PNG`s hopes of jumping both Tonga and Samoa.

NRL 2023: Pacific Championships, Papua New Guinea Kumuls, Fiji Bati; PNG eying 'two-Test series' with Fiji as chance to jump Tonga in IRL World Rankings | NRL.com

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by The Rocket

[Sports Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

This whole laying the foundations talk is complete nonsense and completely the wrong mindset. International Rugby League grew exponentially is the late 1980's/early 1990's by going away from the bog standard grounds and moving to Wembley, Old Trafford and Elland Road. We'd been doing the whole small steps, safe options for years prior with the same results. RL administrators thought big and reaped the results.

Play games in small towns and/or small SL grounds next year and we get the same results. There is no real growth to be found in this small steps approach because going to such games does not appeal to many non RL fans, and seemingly many RL fans too.

Yeah, it comes down to a very strange paradox which is restrains the sport from growing in the UK, how can an organisation created on the whole basis of the idea of professionalism, be so lacking in commercial application?

[Ovenden Grunt]

Can you pay on the day on Saturday at Huddersfield?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Let's be honest, it's been a really poor performance from the RFL so far. But we should look at the potential here - the reality is that if we don't make these work then it's going to be a very tough time for England RL. 

If we get between 40 and 50k, taht isn't a disaster (it's disappointing, sure), but it's almost your starting point. With things like continuity, better ground selection, better scheduling, better narrative and promotion, work on sponsorship and corporates etc then it feels like there is absolutely opportunity for growth. 

One thing I was thinking here too is that we used to have a model that saw us have games on Sky and then highlights on BBC. I do wonder whether visibility would be affected much tbh and I think going into the more commercial market would guarantee financial security of these games. I say that reluctantly, because I love the BBC showing our games live, but I do wonder whether it's a bit of a vanity thing. 

So whilst this series may end up underwhelming, for me, it shows potential. 

I would think maybe 25k over the first two games (although I have doubts for Huddersfield)- and then if Tonga win I would hope 18k odd for a decider with the women's game as well and probably a fair bit more hospitality at Leeds.

Add in the University shirt sponsor (lols) and a small loss then if the figures are true.

Not sure why Samoa would be under threat. Bit like saying a bad CC or GF puts the next year under threat. You have to have one series to then build support up for the following year.

And they should have a year's lead in as well (albeit there was plenty of time since Tonga was announced). So plenty of time for early bird offers and the such.

The RFL do make things hard though. Even down to somewhere here saying only 100 in hospitality at Saints because the RFL wanted to sell it, whereas Saints thought they would have sold it out if they had the reigns. You hear things like that and you question whether some of the people in charge are purely ego driven, have low double digit IQs, are simply incompetent or all three.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The RFL decide who they are selling to and they actively chose terrestrial coverage. We saw it happen with our own eyes. 

It's not unlike another similar sport who could get far, far more for their 6N tournament with Sky, and may end up going there again, but are holding onto terrestrial coverage. 

I would think given the small fees involved, choosing BBC for most eyeballs is a reasonable tactical choice. Especially with likely more FTA of SL next season.