Rob Burrow Award - no more Harry Sunderland Trophy

[Padge]

I think doing it now is based on getting it done before the season starts so that any references to the award for the next GF use the new name rather than the old, otherwise up until the GF talk will be of who might win the HS Trophy and then it disappears and isn't awarded.

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

Course it is led by that. There is not a chance it would be happening otherwise.

You even said yourself on the last page that there was a very sad impetus to doing this now rather than waiting 9 months.

I said that was an impetus, however I think they were likely to make the change anyway. 

They've clearly had it as part of the pre season news, including the launch of the Respect campaign too (which quite likely ties into this, if you are aware of the wider context).

Edited February 10 by Tommygilf

[Damien]

Just now, Padge said:

I think doing it now is based on getting it done before the season starts so that any references to the award for the next GF use the new name rather than the old, otherwise up until the GF talk will be of who might win the HS Trophy and then it disappears and isn't awarded.

Doing it now refers to doing it at all this year too. Awards generally aren't renamed to someone that is still alive and to a person that only retired 7 years ago.

[Padge]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Doing it now refers to doing it at all this year too. Awards generally aren't renamed to someone that is still alive and to a person that only retired 7 years ago.

I made the point earlier that I disagreed for this very reason, but we are were we are and I can see why its done before the season starts.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I said that was an impetus, however I think they were likely to make the change anyway. 

They've clearly had it as part of the pre season news, including the launch of the Respect campaign too (which quite likely ties into this, if you are aware of the wider context).

There were a couple of points in my one point really. Timing etc. but I think the fact that our two major award name changes in recent years have been around players who became ill. I'm not convinced it is a great precedent to set. 

I'd have liked us to honour Rob Burrow's charity efforts and in time, his life, in a different way. 

But I accept that's a personal view and certainly won't be too critical outside of this RL discussion forum. 

 

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, Damien said:

I said this on page 1 but said 10 years. For me a fixed period removes all the issues people raise and there is a fixed process that everyone understands. There can be no offence when an award is renamed as that is the process. There will always be disagreements about if people are worthy or not but rotation is a good solution and compromise I feel. 

On your second paragraph I completely agree too. That has been the main driver behind 2 awards being renamed now and that isn't the right approach to me.

Yeah I really like the idea. I think it works for a variety of reasons and keeps these things fresh and relevant (even if it ended up named on a person from the 1890's for a spell). 

[Damien]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yeah I really like the idea. I think it works for a variety of reasons and keeps these things fresh and relevant (even if it ended up named on a person from the 1890's for a spell). 

The thing is now what happens next? Is this going to be named after Rob Burrow for the next 60 odd years as it was after Harry Sunderland? With the best will in the world his name will be no more relevant in 30 years time than the likes of Martin Offiah are to those under 20 now. What happens if someone is MOM in 3 Grand Finals, should it be renamed again because they trump Burrow? No matter what people feel about Rob Burrow today in a generation or two the same debates about renaming will start.

Not having a proper process in place just creates needless issues. Indeed when being named after a contemporary figure of my time it makes me even more uneasy about it being named after that figure for potentially 60 years or more. At least with the older figures, like Sunderland and Todd, it was just always like that and what you grew up with. However now change has happened, and you've seen loads of greats before Burrow and know that more will come after, it doesn't feel right subjectively choosing one above the others permanently.

[StandOffHalf]

''At least with the older figures, like Sunderland and Todd, it was just always like that and what you grew up with.''

Well said, Damien.

 

[Padge]

6 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

''At least with the older figures, like Sunderland and Todd, it was just always like that and what you grew up with.''

Well said, Damien.

 

The awards were also created/named for what contribution these people made off the pitch not on it.

The good thing about that is that people who are not the 'stars' get recognition.

I am warming to the 10 year cycle idea, but would add that it should not be a player, unless they made an outstanding contribution on following retirement.

Edited February 10 by Padge

[StandOffHalf]

14 minutes ago, Padge said:

The awards were also created/named for what contribution these people made off the pitch not on it.

The good thing about that is that people who are not the 'stars' get recognition.

I am warming to the 10 year cycle idea, but would add that it should not be a player, unless they made an outstanding contribution on following retirement.

Yes, I think club awards are where playing greats should be recognised by having medals, etc. named in their honour.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Padge said:

The awards were also created/named for what contribution these people made off the pitch not on it.

The good thing about that is that people who are not the 'stars' get recognition.

I am warming to the 10 year cycle idea, but would add that it should not be a player, unless they made an outstanding contribution on following retirement.

I can understand that point of view, and I a rotation I think that should play a big part, but I wouldn't be against past players also being honoured in this way. 

I think this should be about a few things, honouring people's contribution, celebrating history, and telling stories. 

[Padge]

40 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I can understand that point of view, and I a rotation I think that should play a big part, but I wouldn't be against past players also being honoured in this way. 

I think this should be about a few things, honouring people's contribution, celebrating history, and telling stories. 

I am not saying players shouldn't be allowed the naming honour but it should be for off field activities.

As a player is rewarded by receiving the trophy he has already had a playing achievement noted.

[gingerjon]

Leaving his racism aside, was Sunderland such an impact on the game that he warranted two of the handful of player trophies being named after him?

[RigbyLuger]

33 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Leaving his racism aside, was Sunderland such an impact on the game that he warranted two of the handful of player trophies being named after him?

Apparently so, and they should never be changed!!!

[Castleford Hawk]

I think it is a good idea to freshen up,say every 10 years.  That way generations of greats who follow the likes of Goldthorpe, Todd and Sutherland are also remembered. Hanley, Offiah, Schofield etc deserve their day in the sun.

[Padge]

56 minutes ago, Castleford Hawk said:

I think it is a good idea to freshen up,say every 10 years.  That way generations of greats who follow the likes of Goldthorpe, Todd and Sutherland are also remembered. Hanley, Offiah, Schofield etc deserve their day in the sun.

What have the players you mentioned done positively for the game since they retired.

[Padge]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Leaving his racism aside, was Sunderland such an impact on the game that he warranted two of the handful of player trophies being named after him?

He was very influential in starting the game in France, will that do as a starter?

[gingerjon]

8 hours ago, Padge said:

He was very influential in starting the game in France, will that do as a starter?

It's a way of not answering the question.

[Dunbar]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

It's a way of not answering the question.

You don't think being a primary driver for the development of the sport in one of the four major Rugby League playing nations is having an impact on the sport?

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

You don't think being a primary driver for the development of the sport in one of the four major Rugby League playing nations is having an impact on the sport?

That wasn't the question. Was he such an amazing administrator that, of the tiny handful of player awards we have, two should be named after him?

[RigbyLuger]

27 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

That wasn't the question. Was he such an amazing administrator that, of the tiny handful of player awards we have, two should be named after him?

Imagine, having been a driver behind the Grand Final, we renamed it after Maurice Lindsay instead?

[Dunbar]

35 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

That wasn't the question. Was he such an amazing administrator that, of the tiny handful of player awards we have, two should be named after him?

Oh, I see.

Seems a bit mean-spirited seeing as though we have just removed one but each to their own I guess.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

You don't think being a primary driver for the development of the sport in one of the four major Rugby League playing nations is having an impact on the sport?

I'm not sure if in his role with the ARL that the Kangaroos playing an exhibition game against GB in Paris makes him a primary driver. The RFL had certainly been trying to organise such a match for a good decade before and had certainly done more groundwork than the ARL.

It seems one of these instances where a well known figure is being singled out for credit while lesser known figures or governing bodies are just ignored.

[JohnM]

Doesn't Australia have some sort of  Immortals award? Maybe that's a solution. 

[Dunbar]

I simply don't know enough about Harry Sunderland and his achievements in the sport.  If others do then I am happy to bow to their greater knowledge, which I assume is well researched and thorough. 

I am just not sure that the week that his name has been removed from the Grand Final player of the match trophy is also the time to publicly downplay his achievements.

Shall we also say his mother was a hamster and his father smelt of elderberries.