IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

London gained 4.5pts after their season in SL, what is to say another Championship team could not do the same taking them well above the dregs of SL?

A club 4 or 5 points below other clubs shouldn't leapfrog those clubs because they won a final.

[Hopie]

14 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

Bizarrely, there was still some uncertainty at the time of the vote about what P&R would look like in practice. I think all clubs understood that P&R was no longer automatic but there was some selling of the idea that the winner of the Championship would still go up in almost all circumstances.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/chance-of-championship-winners-being-denied-promotion-in-new-img-system-are-very-remote

Amazing that clubs were told that the team winning the championship would usually be promoted, when the system is designed to largely prevent a club getting into Super League that hasn't been there in the 3 year calculation period, why would they say that and then do the opposite?

[Trojan Horse]

More proactive action and refurbishment of south boxes at trinity. Also, employed John Kear to facilitate the presentation on match day including interviews etc. He oozes enthusiasm and knowledge so that’s an excellent appointment.

Trinity owner refurbishing the boxes. All floors to have independent bar areas installed, new seating on balcony, high quality food served pre and post match. Not only that but usage on match day of pool tables, darts and the luxury players lounge on match days. 
 

New packages out for this for all floors. Very impressive forward thinking to both increase the quality of the product and revenue/match day experience. 

Cant help but be impressed by the continual and constant improvement. I don’t recognise my club anymore . 
 

https://wakefieldtrinity.com/matchday-hospitality-packages-confirmed/

Edited November 14, 2024 by Trojan Horse

[gingerjon]

Making no comment, except to point out that, yet again, a programme and system being implemented for the whole of the game, is being pored over simply for what it means for the maybe 4 clubs outside Super League that the nature of promotion to it might affect.

Or, to put it another way, detail that is simply not relevant to about 90% of clubs.

[Archie Gordon]

24 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Making no comment, except to point out that, yet again, a programme and system being implemented for the whole of the game, is being pored over simply for what it means for the maybe 4 clubs outside Super League that the nature of promotion to it might affect.

Or, to put it another way, detail that is simply not relevant to about 90% of clubs.

That would be more persuasive if the 4 clubs are the same 4 clubs as they were in, say, 2020 or 2015. 

But the 4 clubs are always changing. Pretty recently, the 4 clubs have included Leigh, Wakefield and Hull KR - fully a third of what are now our A-grade clubs. 

[Archie Gordon]

A fundamental issue for me is that if the system is supposed to allow fluidity between SL and Champ, the IMG option is worse than P&R. And if the system is supposed to protect the 12 clubs and build in a strong incumbency effect, it is a worse option than licensing.

There, I said it: I am a fan of P&R but I would choose licensing over this current model.

[gingerjon]

32 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

That would be more persuasive if the 4 clubs are the same 4 clubs as they were in, say, 2020 or 2015. 

But the 4 clubs are always changing. Pretty recently, the 4 clubs have included Leigh, Wakefield and Hull KR - fully a third of what are now our A-grade clubs. 

A fair point.

At this moment in time, and being honest, are there any clubs outside Super League who are, in the here and now, stronger than those inside it?

[The Blues Ox]

12 hours ago, Dave T said:

A club 4 or 5 points below other clubs shouldn't leapfrog those clubs because they won a final.

But they may be 4 or 5 points below another club just for the simple reason they don't have the extra points that been in SL brings. London are a good example as they were thought to be miles away and ended up actually been 2 spots away from keeping their SL spot been the 14th ranked club. Take a team with a starting point of around 12 points and if they get promoted those extra points gained for being in SL could be enough to take them to an A grade. Its a chance we have to take to make sure we are simply not carrying teams in SL no matter of on field performance at the top level.

[The Blues Ox]

19 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

A fair point.

At this moment in time, and being honest, are there any clubs outside Super League who are, in the here and now, stronger than those inside it?

Given how easy it were for London to gain extra points just by being in SL you have to assume that teams like Toulouse, and Bradford would be above all 3 B graded teams if they were given a year in SL.

[Barley Mow]

9 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Given how easy it were for London to gain extra points just by being in SL you have to assume that teams like Toulouse, and Bradford would be above all 3 B graded teams if they were given a year in SL.

Doesn't Toulouse's current grading include their year in SL (for those things assessed over 3 years)?

Next year that will drop off for them I believe.

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

A fair point.

At this moment in time, and being honest, are there any clubs outside Super League who are, in the here and now, stronger than those inside it?

But Jon, for a number of recent years many on this site were calling for Wakefield to be banished from SL, and equally I got fed up of 'What will Leigh bring to SL small town club with nothing to offer' and apart from a recent resurgence HKR were "bottom feeders" in SL.

The truth is I believe not because of IMG, those clubs would have still done the same it is the nature of the men now in charge of those clubs who are ambitious  winners and to be fair have the resources to make it happen.

Who can say that other clubs will not get the same type of guy(s) coming in to turn things around, so to answer your question of 'here and now' probably not, but can anyone say there are no more Derek Beaumont's or Matt Ellis's who can pop up? 

But I will add one caveat to that, both Mr Beaumont (with his new 5 year plan) and to a certain degree even in this system Mr Ellis knew that if they spend the money and guarantee promotion on the field and with keeping momentum they will get the backing of latent and new fans, but under this system will ambitious people be prepared to wait to spend to climb the grading ladder for the computer to say OK your in?

[gingerjon]

So, it's the 12 in Super League now plus Featherstone Rovers, Bradford (but only if they're solvent), London (but only if they sort themselves out), Toulouse (but only if they put a bit of effort in) and ... anyone else?

In the here and now.

[RP London]

45 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But Jon, for a number of recent years many on this site were calling for Wakefield to be banished from SL, and equally I got fed up of 'What will Leigh bring to SL small town club with nothing to offer' and apart from a recent resurgence HKR were "bottom feeders" in SL.

The truth is I believe not because of IMG, those clubs would have still done the same it is the nature of the men now in charge of those clubs who are ambitious  winners and to be fair have the resources to make it happen.

Who can say that other clubs will not get the same type of guy(s) coming in to turn things around, so to answer your question of 'here and now' probably not, but can anyone say there are no more Derek Beaumont's or Matt Ellis's who can pop up? 

But I will add one caveat to that, both Mr Beaumont (with his new 5 year plan) and to a certain degree even in this system Mr Ellis knew that if they spend the money and guarantee promotion on the field and with keeping momentum they will get the backing of latent and new fans, but under this system will ambitious people be prepared to wait to spend to climb the grading ladder for the computer to say OK your in?

I've emboldened an important part of this... You believe. 

Yet the evidence would suggest that until IMG came along and until the owners knew that they really needed to up their game off the field there was, across the board, little real interest in this happening. Evidence.. 

New owners are coming into the sport (something we were told would not happen by some on here), why is that? It could easily be suggested (and has been previously on this thread) that this ability to know that if you spend your money you will get return rather than the lottery that is spending your money on the on field and hoping for some luck. 

The only thing we do have evidence of is that many of the clubs that are investing now were not before (and they were getting knocked for it, rightly IMHO, left right and centre). That is not a coincidence. Other than that its all "belief" (the only people that truly know a persons intentions are the person themselves) so lets not discount the actual evidence to just simply go on what we believe, becuase it fits our argument, as that is just madness.. 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

25 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

So, it's the 12 in Super League now plus Featherstone Rovers, Bradford (but only if they're solvent), London (but only if they sort themselves out), Toulouse (but only if they put a bit of effort in) and ... anyone else?

In the here and now.

What's so special about this moment in time?

Edited November 14, 2024 by Jill Halfpenny fan

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

What's so special about this moment in time?

what was so special about 1895 or 1995 or 20?? when licencing was brought in? at some point you just have to put a marker in the sand and try to move on from it and build from that point.. 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

what was so special about 1895 or 1995 or 20?? when licencing was brought in? at some point you just have to put a marker in the sand and try to move on from it and build from that point.. 

There was nothing special about any of those dates, they just had a chair when the music stopped, pretty much like what your  in favour of now.  

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

What's so special about this moment in time?

It's the only one that's real.

You can't change the past and we can't know the future.

[Archie Gordon]

24 minutes ago, RP London said:

I've emboldened an important part of this... You believe. 

Yet the evidence would suggest that until IMG came along and until the owners knew that they really needed to up their game off the field there was, across the board, little real interest in this happening. Evidence.. 

New owners are coming into the sport (something we were told would not happen by some on here), why is that? It could easily be suggested (and has been previously on this thread) that this ability to know that if you spend your money you will get return rather than the lottery that is spending your money on the on field and hoping for some luck. 

The only thing we do have evidence of is that many of the clubs that are investing now were not before (and they were getting knocked for it, rightly IMHO, left right and centre). That is not a coincidence. Other than that its all "belief" (the only people that truly know a persons intentions are the person themselves) so lets not discount the actual evidence to just simply go on what we believe, becuase it fits our argument, as that is just madness.. 

It's just not a very obvious causal chain at all.

Leigh and Hull KR's path to where they are now pre-dated IMG. You could make a case that nothing they've done would be different in a counterfactual world where grading didn't happen.

Wakefield's rise kind of runs parallel to IMG. I say that insofar as Ellis's improvements go way wider than the IMG criteria - he's investing in a lot of things that don't get points. I am massively impressed by what he's doing.

Lots of the other club-by-club improvements are undoubtedly worthy but the better tool would have been minimum standards. The actual impact of grading/ranking - separate from what could have been achieved by minimum standards - is really not clear to me.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

So, it's the 12 in Super League now plus Featherstone Rovers, Bradford (but only if they're solvent), London (but only if they sort themselves out), Toulouse (but only if they put a bit of effort in) and ... anyone else?

In the here and now.

Not Widnes 

Widnes Vikings coach Allan Coleman says the club are not yet ready for Super League return - BBC Sport

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's the only one that's real.

You can't change the past and we can't know the future.

You can look back at the past and see how things have changed.  For example, lets take the first seasons Superleague, from memory there was talk of pulling up the drawbridge at that point as well, and compare it to last seasons.  Six of last seasons clubs were not in the original and a seventh took part but had been relegated before a ball was kicked. Of the six, three made the play offs (Hull KR, Leigh and Salford) and two, Hull and Catalans are considered by most of us to be amongst the biggest clubs in the league. Just because of were you where at a current point in time should not define your future.

[Harry Stottle]

39 minutes ago, RP London said:

I've emboldened an important part of this... You believe. 

Yet the evidence would suggest that until IMG came along and until the owners knew that they really needed to up their game off the field there was, across the board, little real interest in this happening. Evidence.. 

New owners are coming into the sport (something we were told would not happen by some on here), why is that? It could easily be suggested (and has been previously on this thread) that this ability to know that if you spend your money you will get return rather than the lottery that is spending your money on the on field and hoping for some luck. 

The only thing we do have evidence of is that many of the clubs that are investing now were not before (and they were getting knocked for it, rightly IMHO, left right and centre). That is not a coincidence. Other than that its all "belief" (the only people that truly know a persons intentions are the person themselves) so lets not discount the actual evidence to just simply go on what we believe, becuase it fits our argument, as that is just madness.. 

Well we have been through this many times on this thread Mr Beaumont developed his 5 year plan when IMG's process for RLwas a twinkle in Matt Dwyers eye.

Mr Beaumont's plan was to put a team out in the Championship that would be guaranteed to get promoted and to then improve the squad with SL quality players before the season ended long before the GF to secure promotion, that has evidently worked, has Matt Ellis followed the same path of course he has.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

You can look back at the past and see how things have changed.  For example, lets take the first seasons Superleague, from memory there was talk of pulling up the drawbridge at that point as well, and compare it to last seasons.  Six of last seasons clubs were not in the original and a seventh took part but had been relegated before a ball was kicked. Of the six, three made the play offs (Hull KR, Leigh and Salford) and two, Hull and Catalans are considered by most of us to be amongst the biggest clubs in the league. Just because of were you where at a current point in time should not define your future.

Indeed, remember it well. It was also 30 years ago.

Where we are now, is that the sport is essentially bankrupt in any meaningful sense of being able to do much beyond managed decline. The only way we can see to address this is to bring more money into the game. We have the entire history of the sport to show that the only way we get money in is by selling the **** out of the top tier of the game.

The media, entertainment and eyeballs market now means that that top tier has to be as able to take what few opportunities we have as ruthlessly commercially as possible.

I'm not in favour on continuing the game's decline therefore I accept we need to do things to get the more money in in that ruthlessly commercial way.

There are no alternatives that anyone has put forward that offer any hope of improving things for the whole game. Some proposed alternatives do seem to make life a little better for the top of the Championship though. So, in essence, more of the same failed thinking that has left the game in the state it's in.

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Not Widnes 

Widnes Vikings coach Allan Coleman says the club are not yet ready for Super League return - BBC Sport

This is the crux of it. Clubs need to be honest with themselves and their fans about their realistic aspirations. The step up to the full time organisation that being successful in SL requires is massive and just beating the other Championship teams isn't enough of a test to say that a club can make that jump.

There are quite a few clubs who I suspect would collapse if they had to go full time for a year before getting relegated.

People bring up Leigh and HKR as if that is some sort of gotcha, but they are precisely what the grading process is trying to achieve - ie clubs making themselves SL level operators before being in SL.

[Harry Stottle]

42 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

You can't change the past and we can't know the future.

Exactly Ginger, but there are those on here who are doing just that stating it will not be long before the Championship is all but jettisoned in favour of a 'closed shop'

As Worzel said only in the past couple of days "but then ultimately this is just a transitional phase as we move to a closed league" endorsed by Dave T.

Funny isn't it that comments such as these get very little reaction or comment from a lot of the forum members, yet those who's comments are positive on protecting the Championship are seemingly scowled upon.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

There was nothing special about any of those dates, they just had a chair when the music stopped, pretty much like what your  in favour of now.  

yes thats the point I'm making.. everything in the whole world works like this.. at some point the music stops and everyone needs to grab a chair (or not).. they have put their mark in the sand now and this is where we need to restart.