IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[dkw]

13 minutes ago, RP London said:

So producing evidence to disprove someone's belief is childish... well that says everything... time to just ignore now... 

How has it taken you this long, you have the patience of a ..erm, I dont know, something really patient.

[Chrispmartha]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

And that is also the point people are saying Tommy, Leigh and HKR hatched their pains before IMG became the flavour of the month, would they have done any different had IMG not been involved what do you think, and include Matt Ellis in the equation of those decisions being a 'business venture' the owners have promoted their businesses, and are reaping the rewards and are continually taking the next step of improving, do you honestly believe they would have just sat on their Laurels had IMG not been involved? They don't do that in their professional 'day job' why would they do it in their professional 'hobby'.

Read the post above yours from Worzel who has spoken to the investors.

Facts not feelings.

[Taffy Tiger]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well we have been through this many times on this thread Mr Beaumont developed his 5 year plan when IMG's process for RLwas a twinkle in Matt Dwyers eye.

Mr Beaumont's plan was to put a team out in the Championship that would be guaranteed to get promoted and to then improve the squad with SL quality players before the season ended long before the GF to secure promotion, that has evidently worked, has Matt Ellis followed the same path of course he has.

Hi Harry , with the greatest of respect I have to disagree with you regarding DB 5 year plan . 

During this 5 year plan Leigh were promoted to SL (end 2020 for 2021 season) . They were then relegated at the end of 2021 , without the so called strengthening of squad you mention . 

DB didn't put a team out in the Championship that would be guaranteed to get promoted and then improve the squad with SL players until 2022 and 'coincidentally ?' after IMG involvement had been officially announced in May 2022 ( had already been in discussions with clubs/owners before this)

Up until IMG announcement Fev were top of Championship and had already beaten a much weaker Leigh team comfortably at Post Office Road , albeit in very heavy conditions.

It was after the IMG announcement to clubs/owners that DB then went out and strengthened the squad , spending money on 15 overseas players iirc . 

This played a significant part in them being able to stay in SL after promotion in 2022 , as SL clubs can only have 7 quota players , meaning that Leigh were the first Championship club who already had 15 quota players , of which they could then choose their best 7 to keep for SL.

I am not suggesting that DB's initial 5 year plan didn't start before IMG , just that it was only implemented in it's current form , after IMG announcement when DB knew the exact requirements for the best chance of SL status beyond 2023 .

 

Edited November 14, 2024 by Taffy Tiger

[Chrispmartha]

8 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Harry , with the greatest of respect I have to disagree with you regarding DB 5 year plan . 

During this 5 year plan Leigh were promoted to SL (end 2020 for 2021 season) . They were then relegated at the end of 2021 , without the so called strengthening of squad you mention . 

DB didn't put a team out in the Championship that would be guaranteed to get promoted and then improve the squad with SL players until 2022 and 'coincidentally ?' after IMG involvement had been announced in May 2022 . 

Up until IMG announcement Fev were top of Championship and had already beaten a much weaker Leigh team comfortably at Post Office Road , albeit in very heavy conditions.

It was after the IMG announcement in May 2022 that DB then went out and strengthened the squad , spending money on 15 overseas players iirc . 

This played a significant part in them being able to stay in SL after promotion in 2022 , as SL clubs can only have 7 quota players , meaning that Leigh were the first Championship club who already had 15 quota players , of which they could then choose their best 7 to keep for SL.

I am not suggesting that DB's initial 5 year plan didn't start before IMG , just that it was only implemented in it's current form , after IMG announcement when DB knew the exact requirements for the best chance of SL status beyond 2023 .

 

To be fair to Harry not sure that’s correct Leigh’s 2022 squad along with Adrian Lamb was clearly built to get up to SL.

They lost 2 games all season

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Understand without necessarily agreeing with your concerns - except this. Licensing was the poorer version of licensing. Nothing really changed. This time we are seeing clubs take steps to address their scores. That simply did not happen last time, at all.

To explain my point further licensing as a 'thing' was fine, but not inplemented well, so im not saying the licensing period went well. We kept the benchmark too low, tried to crowd please by guaranteeing a new club, extending to 14 too early etc. 

But the principle of it was fine. For example, the things that we have seen implemented could work in the licensing framework.

I would also add that whilst you say nothing changed during licensing, I'm not sure I'd say too much has happened here so far. A lot of the score improvements so far have been via jiggery-pokery with finances behind the scene. I would say nip back and look at those licensing seasons, they had bigger crowds than now, and many bigger events in-season, and new facilities being used.

[Taffy Tiger]

10 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

To be fair to Harry not sure that’s correct Leigh’s 2022 squad along with Adrian Lamb was clearly built to get up to SL.

They lost 2 games all season

I do agree to some extent Chris , however it was built on the back of IMG requirements . They were promoted in 2020 long before any IMG involvement , but there was none of this spending on their sqaud in eveidence then .

I don't believe that the strengthening witnessed in the 2022 season is a coincidence and nothing to do with IMG . Maybe I am wrong though and the timing with IMG just fell perfectly for them.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Taffy Tiger

[phiggins]

12 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

I do agree to some extent Chris , however it was built on the back of IMG requirements . They were promoted in 2020 long before any IMG involvement , but there was none of this spending on their sqaud in eveidence then .

I don't believe that the strengthening witnessed in the 2022 season is a coincidence and nothing to do with IMG . Maybe I am wrong though and the timing with IMG just fell perfectly for them.

I don't think that IMG had much bearing on Leigh's playing budget for 2022. Adrian Lam was announced as head coach in Nov 21, and that will have come with assurances on budgets and players he could bring in. And then they were just patient on bringing players in, instead of signing players just because they were available like DB had done previously, and Fev probably did that year. The plan was to go up, stay up, reapply for the academy license and then hope to kick on. 

I think IMG involvment did prompt more consideration for matchday experience in 2023 though, maybe even the rebrand, though that was under consideration ahead of the Summer Bash in May 22, with the kit being a leopard print one. I imagine that the announcement of a partnership with IMG will have made the sport more attractive though, as RLCom desperately need help selling the sport. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the new investors like the grading system.

[Worzel]

3 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

I take this point.

I'm sure that IMG are name-checked by HKR investors as it is surely advantageous to have (almost) a guarantee of tenure. But having 99% certainty of SL tenure in 3 years time (where HKR are under grading, I would say) is little different to having 98% certainty (where HKR or any other well-run big club would be under P&R in the current 12-team SL). 

But I accept that perception is important and the perception of 'drawbridge up' may have helped bring money in.

It's also worth restating that the additional investors came in when HKR were already in SL. If IMG had arrived on the scene 5 years earlier, one might suggest that this additional investment - and the success of HKR - would be unlikely. Which side of the drawbridge you are on might be crucial.

I think Oldham will be the test case as to whether investors are attracted to a Championship club over the medium- or long-term. They might well be. My fear is that the Championship will become moribund if we have no movement between it and SL.

We got relegated within the last decade when we were spending full cap, against some teams who weren't. In fact literally on the last day of the season by one team that wasn't. No matter how good the squad, there is no investment certainty under a P&R model. That's what is materially different now, so it's more than perception. 

[sweaty craiq]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Harry , with the greatest of respect I have to disagree with you regarding DB 5 year plan . 

During this 5 year plan Leigh were promoted to SL (end 2020 for 2021 season) . They were then relegated at the end of 2021 , without the so called strengthening of squad you mention . 

DB didn't put a team out in the Championship that would be guaranteed to get promoted and then improve the squad with SL players until 2022 and 'coincidentally ?' after IMG involvement had been officially announced in May 2022 ( had already been in discussions with clubs/owners before this)

Up until IMG announcement Fev were top of Championship and had already beaten a much weaker Leigh team comfortably at Post Office Road , albeit in very heavy conditions.

It was after the IMG announcement to clubs/owners that DB then went out and strengthened the squad , spending money on 15 overseas players iirc . 

This played a significant part in them being able to stay in SL after promotion in 2022 , as SL clubs can only have 7 quota players , meaning that Leigh were the first Championship club who already had 15 quota players , of which they could then choose their best 7 to keep for SL.

I am not suggesting that DB's initial 5 year plan didn't start before IMG , just that it was only implemented in it's current form , after IMG announcement when DB knew the exact requirements for the best chance of SL status beyond 2023 .

 

Must be the Welsh pochin effecting the memory.

2021 DB was ‘told’ no relegation - at the time the season was about to start, no quality available and Covid restricting income. This changed, he then went about a rebuild for 2022 knowing the squad would get better as the season progressed, imo that team would have been T4 in SL. Started with the coaching set up, medical team, conditioner and players in that order. There are no guarantees of promotion but as soon as the pitches dried up there was only ever going to be one winner.

He threw the cash at that team knowing that major recruitment in October to be SL competitive was impossible. Img were not a influence on his decision, they were not around. Of the 10 quota in the squad Inu was retiring, Aekins Ioane and Hingano were being released, Stone had allegedly signed back to NRL. Fergie was being retained until the red mist came.

The 5 year plan was promotion and then build in SL. Start a ladies team and get it SL competitive and get an elite academy licence and make it the best it can be within 3 years. 

[Taffy Tiger]

7 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Must be the Welsh pochin effecting the memory.

2021 DB was ‘told’ no relegation - at the time the season was about to start, no quality available and Covid restricting income. This changed, he then went about a rebuild for 2022 knowing the squad would get better as the season progressed, imo that team would have been T4 in SL. Started with the coaching set up, medical team, conditioner and players in that order. There are no guarantees of promotion but as soon as the pitches dried up there was only ever going to be one winner.

He threw the cash at that team knowing that major recruitment in October to be SL competitive was impossible. Img were not a influence on his decision, they were not around. Of the 10 quota in the squad Inu was retiring, Aekins Ioane and Hingano were being released, Stone had allegedly signed back to NRL. Fergie was being retained until the red mist came.

The 5 year plan was promotion and then build in SL. Start a ladies team and get it SL competitive and get an elite academy licence and make it the best it can be within 3 years. 

Diolch yn fawr

[Taffy Tiger]

14 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Must be the Welsh pochin effecting the memory.

2021 DB was ‘told’ no relegation - at the time the season was about to start, no quality available and Covid restricting income. This changed, he then went about a rebuild for 2022 knowing the squad would get better as the season progressed, imo that team would have been T4 in SL. Started with the coaching set up, medical team, conditioner and players in that order. There are no guarantees of promotion but as soon as the pitches dried up there was only ever going to be one winner.

He threw the cash at that team knowing that major recruitment in October to be SL competitive was impossible. Img were not a influence on his decision, they were not around. Of the 10 quota in the squad Inu was retiring, Aekins Ioane and Hingano were being released, Stone had allegedly signed back to NRL. Fergie was being retained until the red mist came.

The 5 year plan was promotion and then build in SL. Start a ladies team and get it SL competitive and get an elite academy licence and make it the best it can be within 3 years. 

Not sure if I am reading this right , but that makes DB's comments about Hull FC this year very hypocritical . He has spent most of this year (well since Asiata announcement by FC) criticising Hull for not spending money this year and waiting until next season to improve their squad , having done the same himself in 2021 ?

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, Worzel said:

We got relegated within the last decade when we were spending full cap, against some teams who weren't. In fact literally on the last day of the season by one team that wasn't. No matter how good the squad, there is no investment certainty under a P&R model. That's what is materially different now, so it's more than perception. 

I'm not sure there's more investment certainty in this model. In fact, I'd say that there is less. Who knows what grading score would see you in SL in 2026, given we now know that there are no guarantees for an A grade, or even if the benchmark for an A grade will stay as is next year.

[Trojan Horse]

Inside refurb of south boxes at trinity for corporate packages…

 

[Archie Gordon]

1 hour ago, Worzel said:

We got relegated within the last decade when we were spending full cap, against some teams who weren't. In fact literally on the last day of the season by one team that wasn't. No matter how good the squad, there is no investment certainty under a P&R model. That's what is materially different now, so it's more than perception. 

But the new investment began in 2022-23, right, whilst HKR were not a top 6 club off the field and could still have been relegated on it. So, it was the perception (rather than the certainty) they'd be safe in some near future system that drove the investment. A calculated risk.

For as long as I can remember, if you had your heart set on being a perennial top 4 club on the field under P&R, you would invest in almost exactly the same way that you would if you wanted to be a perennial top 4 club off the field. There are no perennial top 4 clubs that don't have a large supporter base and a decent turnover. At the top of the tree, grading just gives you the perception of a bit more certainty. But it's not as if removing the threat of relegation has freed St Helens to invest after years of anxiety.

Perennial top 4 clubs have always been safe. HKR have been getting there first under P&R and, from now, under the grading system - but, in either case, the chances of HKR either slipping to 13th on the gradings or finishing 12th on the table are, for the next few years, almost the same: tiny. Well done them.

The anxiety - as it has always been - is down at the lower end of the table. Is Salford a good investment? Is Huddersfield? Is Cas even? Where is the certainty? Twas ever thus and this system hasn't solved that.

[Harry Stottle]

On 14/11/2024 at 14:05, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Harry , with the greatest of respect I have to disagree with you regarding DB 5 year plan . 

During this 5 year plan Leigh were promoted to SL (end 2020 for 2021 season) . They were then relegated at the end of 2021 , without the so called strengthening of squad you mention . 

DB didn't put a team out in the Championship that would be guaranteed to get promoted and then improve the squad with SL players until 2022 and 'coincidentally ?' after IMG involvement had been officially announced in May 2022 ( had already been in discussions with clubs/owners before this)

Up until IMG announcement Fev were top of Championship and had already beaten a much weaker Leigh team comfortably at Post Office Road , albeit in very heavy conditions.

It was after the IMG announcement to clubs/owners that DB then went out and strengthened the squad , spending money on 15 overseas players iirc . 

This played a significant part in them being able to stay in SL after promotion in 2022 , as SL clubs can only have 7 quota players , meaning that Leigh were the first Championship club who already had 15 quota players , of which they could then choose their best 7 to keep for SL.

I am not suggesting that DB's initial 5 year plan didn't start before IMG , just that it was only implemented in it's current form , after IMG announcement when DB knew the exact requirements for the best chance of SL status beyond 2023 .

 

Hi Taffy, just to go through a few of the timescales, the 5 year plan was originated when Leigh lost SL status at the end of '21 when they were relegated, Mr B's first signing was Adrian Lam, who when joining the club on 17th November '21 had only 7 players in the squad he then put together a squad which was as good if not better than anything in the Championship, which included John Asiata, Tom Amone, Edwin Ipape, Nene Macdonald, Caleb Aekins, and Sam Stone, as the season progressed Krisnan Inu was signed (20 appearences) Blake Ferguson (16), Lachlan Lam (8), Josh Charnley (7)  Kai O'Donnell (6), then the building for '23 started around August time - as we are all aware awaiting till you see if you have won promotion before entering the market does not work - but these players did not sign until Oct '22 who included Gaz O'Brien, Ricky Leutelle, Tom Briscoe, Zac Hardacre, Matt Davies, Oli Holmes, Jack Hughes, and Robbie Mulhearn.

But the crux of all this that it originated in '21 before the '22 session started Mr Beaumont told the fans that he was making a concerted push to win promotion with a new 5 year plan that he was prepared to finance and if it failed in '22 he would do it all again in '23 this was stated before IMG came on the scene so as you say the plan was originated and commenced prior to the '22 season, the team was head and shoulders above the others in the Championship, but the realisation was it needed to improve to compete in SL hence the post season signings.

Re the first game at Fev, yes Fev won that game and yes it was atrocious weather (I got soaked), I wouldn't say Leigh were a much weaker team than Fev, being only the second game of the season they did not function has a team had they would learn to do so not losing another game all season except a narrow late loss to HKR in the Challenge cup.

PS, information for @dkw, @Worzel, and @LeeF .

Edited November 15, 2024 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

On 14/11/2024 at 14:24, Taffy Tiger said:

I do agree to some extent Chris , however it was built on the back of IMG requirements . They were promoted in 2020 long before any IMG involvement , but there was none of this spending on their sqaud in eveidence then .

I don't believe that the strengthening witnessed in the 2022 season is a coincidence and nothing to do with IMG . Maybe I am wrong though and the timing with IMG just fell perfectly for them.

The timing with IMG was purely coincidental.

[Taffy Tiger]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Taffy, just to go through a few of the timescales, the 5 year plan was originated when Leigh lost SL status at the end of '21 when they were relegated, Mr B's first signing was Adrian Lam, who when joining the club on 17th November '21 had only 7 players in the squad he then put together a squad which was as good if not better than anything in the Championship, which included John Asiata, Tom Amone, Edwin Ipape, Nene Macdonald, Caleb Aekins, and Sam Stone, as the season progressed Krisnan Inu was signed (20 appearences) Blake Ferguson (16), Lachlan Lam (8), Josh Charnley (7)  Kai O'Donnell (6), then the building for '23 started around August time - as we are all aware awaiting till you see if you have won promotion before entering the market does not work - but these players did not sign until Oct '22 who included Gaz O'Brien, Ricky Leutelle, Tom Briscoe, Zac Hardacre, Matt Davies, Oli Holmes, Jack Hughes, and Robbie Mulhearn.

But the crux of all this that it originated in '21 before the '22 session started Mr Beaumont told the fans that he was making a concerted push to win promotion with a new 5 year plan that he was prepared to finance and if it failed in '22 he would do it all again in '23 this was stated before IMG came on the scene so as you say the plan was originated and commenced prior to the '22 season, the team was head and shoulders above the others in the Championship, but the realisation was it needed to improve to compete in SL hence the post season signings.

Re the first game at Fev, yes Fev won that game and yes it was atrocious weather (I got soaked), I wouldn't say Leigh were a much weaker team than Fev, being only the second game of the season they did not function has a team had they would learn to do so not losing another game all season except a narrow late loss to HKR in the Challenge cup.

Thanks Harry . For some reason I was under the imprssion that his 5-year plan started in 2018 . If 2021 then all becomes much clearer 

[Harry Stottle]

21 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Thanks Harry . For some reason I was under the imprssion that his 5-year plan started in 2018 . If 2021 then all becomes much clearer 

If you recall Taffy, when Leigh were 'promoted' for the '21 season it was as the nominated team to replace Toronto who dropped out of the system, Mr Beaumont was all bravado with his SL Ready statement but in reality it was just an average Championship squad that was put together and did not compete in SL that season, I often thought that was the nucleus of his thinking that he realised that he had to do something radical at the end of that season if he wanted his club to be able to compete at SL level in the future and that lead to his 5 year plan which he hatched a few months after being relegated.

We have just finished year 3 of the plan, in '24

Edited November 15, 2024 by Harry Stottle

[Worzel]

27 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Taffy, just to go through a few of the timescales, the 5 year plan was originated when Leigh lost SL status at the end of '21 when they were relegated, Mr B's first signing was Adrian Lam, who when joining the club on 17th November '21 had only 7 players in the squad he then put together a squad which was as good if not better than anything in the Championship, which included John Asiata, Tom Amone, Edwin Ipape, Nene Macdonald, Caleb Aekins, and Sam Stone, as the season progressed Krisnan Inu was signed (20 appearences) Blake Ferguson (16), Lachlan Lam (8), Josh Charnley (7)  Kai O'Donnell (6), then the building for '23 started around August time - as we are all aware awaiting till you see if you have won promotion before entering the market does not work - but these players did not sign until Oct '22 who included Gaz O'Brien, Ricky Leutelle, Tom Briscoe, Zac Hardacre, Matt Davies, Oli Holmes, Jack Hughes, and Robbie Mulhearn.

But the crux of all this that it originated in '21 before the '22 session started Mr Beaumont told the fans that he was making a concerted push to win promotion with a new 5 year plan that he was prepared to finance and if it failed in '22 he would do it all again in '23 this was stated before IMG came on the scene so as you say the plan was originated and commenced prior to the '22 season, the team was head and shoulders above the others in the Championship, but the realisation was it needed to improve to compete in SL hence the post season signings.

Re the first game at Fev, yes Fev won that game and yes it was atrocious weather (I got soaked), I wouldn't say Leigh were a much weaker team than Fev, being only the second game of the season they did not function has a team had they would learn to do so not losing another game all season except a narrow late loss to HKR in the Challenge cup.

PS, information for @dkw, @Worzel, and @LeeF .

Very good, I never disputed it. Only shared what happened at the world-famous Hull Kingston Rovers... we were even on The Chase this week!

I defer to you on all matters pertaining to Wigan bus stops.

 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

35 minutes ago, Worzel said:

Very good, I never disputed it. Only shared what happened at the world-famous Hull Kingston Rovers... we were even on The Chase this week!

 

 

That Bradley Walsh knows you exist must be one of your greatest achievements.

[Worzel]

22 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

That Bradley Walsh knows you exist must be one of your greatest achievements.

Certainly since 1985 

[Worzel]

22 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

But the new investment began in 2022-23, right, whilst HKR were not a top 6 club off the field and could still have been relegated on it. So, it was the perception (rather than the certainty) they'd be safe in some near future system that drove the investment. A calculated risk.

Wakefield got relegated that season and have achieved an A-grade and got straight back. Everybody at Hull KR knew that we would be able to do what needed to be done off field, so we had certainty about the medium-term outcomes, just as Matt Ellis did when he bought Wakey. Whereas pre-IMG if we had got relegated at the end of 2022-23, we had no certainty. As Featherstone have shown us many times.

As many ways you can try to undercut this, I have it from the horses mouth. In fact two of the horses mouths! 

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, Worzel said:

Wakefield got relegated that season and have achieved an A-grade and got straight back. Everybody at Hull KR knew that we would be able to do what needed to be done off field, so we had certainty about the medium-term outcomes, just as Matt Ellis did when he bought Wakey. Whereas pre-IMG if we had got relegated at the end of 2022-23, we had no certainty. As Featherstone have shown us many times.

As many ways you can try to undercut this, I have it from the horses mouth. In fact two of the horses mouths! 

Stop talking to horses!

[phiggins]

Just now, phiggins said:

Stop talking to horses!

This is the level of debate that I have now reached...

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Stop talking to horses!

- Mrs Caligula, AD 40.