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Siva Tau ( Haka and other versions) time to ban them?

Bearman

By Bearman
in The General Rugby League Forum

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gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

If we put the clocks back two hours the farmers would have an extra hour to practice their hakas maybe. 

I look forward to the Serious About RL (hi guys) article that follows this one.

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Bearman
Bearman

When does a cultural ritual cross the line. Yesterday the Samoan team performed their Siva Tau and I am sure the crowd enjoyed the spectacle. The other team is expected to respect the ritual

LeytherRob
LeytherRob

Campaign to bring back this version of the Haka  

Copa
Copa

It’s fantastic. There are quite a few Tongans in my street and I’ve seen them in the park practicing their version with kids of all ages learning and joining in. At my local suburban rugby league

Posted Images

glossop saint

glossop saint

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Sure, I just don't like it when they get to the point where they are pushing foreheads into each other.  I think when they get to that point they have gone past mutual respect and into intimidation.

Just a personal opinion.

Hardly welcoming a visiting tribe is it?

It is used to pump themselves up and for team bonding during practices in camp and create a connection to the nation for those heritge players. I like the show but let's not pretend it is being done for primarily cultural reasons. And the other team should be able to react however they want without fear of being disrespectful. 

Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Hardly welcoming a visiting tribe is it?

It is used to pump themselves up and for team bonding during practices in camp and create a connection to the nation for those heritge players. I like the show but let's not pretend it is being done for primarily cultural reasons. And the other team should be able to react however they want without fear of being disrespectful. 

I know.  Imagine if before a normal game of rugby one of the opposition players pushed his forehead into yours and screamed in your face... "it's just my way of welcoming you to the game mate".

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

daz39

daz39

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Not sure why you are saying 'grow up', it seems to have been a sensible and adult discussion so far.

Anyway, one of the points being made is that the aggression is performative and it has moved from being a cultural element to being about two groups of players goading each other.

If you are correct in saying that "players know it's going to happen and know they have to restrain themselves but also know they can push it to the limit for maximum impact" (and I think you are), then surely this is the definition of performative - all a bit WWE for me.

The 'Grow up' comment was meant tongue in cheek, humourous bit apologies it didn't come across that way, wasn't meant to offend, if it did.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, daz39 said:

The 'Grow up' comment was meant tongue in cheek, humourous bit apologies it didn't come across that way, wasn't meant to offend, if it did.

Understood.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

RigbyLuger

RigbyLuger

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Damien said:

For every person that thinks it may be performative or overly aggressive I daresay there are several more who love to see it and think it adds to the game and occasion. Fans and opposition players alike seem to love it.

It's much more entertaining than the kids dancing at half time at every event the RFL have. I hope they make money off it.

Chris22

Chris22

Posted
Posted

Nobody actually forces England or anyone else to watch the haka or similar.

If our players feel opponents go too far, then we could just gather in a circle in our own half or do some passing drills.

The fact we stand on half way and face it suggests the players have no issues.

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Father Gascoigne

Father Gascoigne

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Nobody actually forces England or anyone else to watch the haka or similar.

If our players feel opponents go too far, then we could just gather in a circle in our own half or do some passing drills.

The fact we stand on half way and face it suggests the players have no issues.

Can you imagine if they did though? They wouldn't live it down. They'd get pelted in the media and by fans. 

There is an expectation that you stand there and watch it, and that anything else is disrespectful. Even when they start squaring up and moving in unison towards them, some people see it as disrespectful. You can't really win. 

People enjoy it, as is evident in this thread, so it is what it is. But no player or group would break rank and start doing drills with a war dance taking centre stage, even if they dislike it. 

Damien

Damien

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Nobody actually forces England or anyone else to watch the haka or similar.

If our players feel opponents go too far, then we could just gather in a circle in our own half or do some passing drills.

The fact we stand on half way and face it suggests the players have no issues.

Good point.

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StandOffHalf

StandOffHalf

Posted
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Father Gascoigne said:

Can you imagine if they did though? They wouldn't live it down. They'd get pelted in the media and by fans. 

There is an expectation that you stand there and watch it, and that anything else is disrespectful. Even when they start squaring up and moving in unison towards them, some people see it as disrespectful. You can't really win. 

People enjoy it, as is evident in this thread, so it is what it is. But no player or group would break rank and start doing drills with a war dance taking centre stage, even if they dislike it. 

If memory serves, David Campese used to stretch and warm-up in his own half or in-goal when the Wallabies played the All Blacks...

 

Edited by StandOffHalf
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Bedfordshire Bronco

Bedfordshire Bronco

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Bearman said:

When does a cultural ritual cross the line.

Yesterday the Samoan team performed their Siva Tau and I am sure the crowd enjoyed the spectacle.

The other team is expected to respect the ritual as it is THEIR culture.

However, did Gordon Chan Kum (GCK) cross the line by getting so close to Lewis ( ML) that contact with their heads resulted. ( I'm not saying who caused the head clash as because they were so close that either could have butted the other one..but, it GCk was that came so close that the incident occurred.)

I know it was just a tap but I'm sure that in a court of law or had it happened during the game it could be seen as an offence.

Surely it  behoves that guest person performing his ritual to make sure he does not put his host in the position where he is uncomfortable?

I don't want to be a killjoy but  I do feel that the whole palaver gives the " attacking" players a fillip whilst the "defenders " have to be passive. ( of course when the " defenders" have their own version they have the opportunity to do the same to the other lot. But the N. Hemisphere teams do not have their chance,,, BTW I am old enough to remember when EVEN the Australian RL team used to do a version of the Haka).

Am I alone in thinking that this incident was beyond the pale?

 At the very least the coaches need to have a word

How many more times do I have to say this 

We should definitely be bringing our traditional Morris Dancing to the table here 

Whack em in the fizzog with a damp hanky....they won't like it up em

traditional-british.gif

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Father Gascoigne

Father Gascoigne

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

If memory serves, David Campese used to stretch and warm-up in his own half or in-goal when the Wallabies played the All Blacks...

 

Well there you go. I take back what I said. That was before my time, but across all the hakas I've seen in either code never seen something like that. Good shout

Damien

Damien

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

If memory serves, David Campese used to stretch and warm-up in his own half or in-goal when the Wallabies played the All Blacks...

 

You've done it now. IMG. Thread merged.

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StandOffHalf

StandOffHalf

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Damien said:

You've done it now. IMG. Thread merged.

Yeah, I noticed that. I didn't know they were in bed with the other lot.

JDM

JDM

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

Looks like a Monty Python sketch compared to the ferocious, tightly choreographed numbers they put on now...

my wife saw this and said it looks like AC/DC lookalikes learning to play the guitar 🤣

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Gav Wilson

Gav Wilson

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Sure, I just don't like it when they get to the point where they are pushing foreheads into each other.  I think when they get to that point they have gone past mutual respect and into intimidation.

Just a personal opinion.

That was the best bit.

OP is nothing more than a stooge for Callum Walker and I claim my £5.

@GavWilson

Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

That was the best bit.

OP is nothing more than a stooge for Callum Walker and I claim my £5.

We all have our own preferences.

  • Like 2

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted

Let me stress, I have nothing against the traditional element of the challenge and it can be visually stunning and a great build up... it's not for me personally but I recognise it is excellent for the sport.

But reaching the opposing team (England in this case) and getting to the point where you are pushing your head together and shouting is too much for me... stay 5m apart or so, you can still issue the challenge and look intimidating. 

Some people say it is welcome in this sanitised world but I think they do it because of the sanitised state of Rugby League... knowing it will not be anything more than show.

Can you imagine that Kiwi in Lewis's face doing that to Jim Mills before a test.  He would have been stretchered off before the game had even started.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

StandOffHalf

StandOffHalf

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Let me stress, I have nothing against the traditional element of the challenge and it can be visually stunning and a great build up... it's not for me personally but I recognise it is excellent for the sport.

But reaching the opposing team (England in this case) and getting to the point where you are pushing your head together and shouting is too much for me... stay 5m apart or so, you can still issue the challenge and look intimidating. 

Some people say it is welcome in this sanitised world but I think they do it because of the sanitised state of Rugby League... knowing it will not be anything more than show.

Can you imagine that Kiwi in Lewis's face doing that to Jim Mills before a test.  He would have been stretchered off before the game had even started.

The guy's nose would have been plastered across his face.

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Hopie

Hopie

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Sure, I just don't like it when they get to the point where they are pushing foreheads into each other. 

That's the traditional greeting in Maori culture, not so sure about Samoan though.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
Just now, Hopie said:

That's the traditional greeting in Maori culture, not so sure about Samoan though.

Yes, it looked like a friendly greeting.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

Tim Streets tache

Tim Streets tache

Posted
Posted (edited)

Does anyone actually want it banned? Or is it a desperate attempt by a rubbish website to generate rage clicks?
It was/is great. Lewis response great too and it was brilliant seeing him and the Samoan lad embrace after the game! Pure respect and sportsmanship

Edited by Tim Streets tache
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Hopie

Hopie

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Tim Streets tache said:

Does anyone actually want it banned? Or is it a desperate attempt by a rubbish website to generate rage clicks?
It was/is great. Lewis response great too and it was brilliant seeing him and the Samoan lad embrace after the game! Pure respect and sportsmanship

st,medium,507x507-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.u5.a group of cartoon characters holding a sign that says won 't somebody please think of the children

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