14 Nov: 3rd Test - England v New Zealand (Wigan, KO 1pm) Match Thread

[John Drake]

Discuss the Third Test between England and New Zealand here.

[Guest]

If England can defend as well as they did last Saturday and add to the attack then they should be able to sneak a win. I think it will be a very tight game with only a few points separating them both.

[nathanwood7]

McNamara has generally been a fairly conservative coach and I imagine he will probably stick with the same team again this week. Having said that, the lack of creativity in London was a concern and i'd be very tempted to give Gale a go in the halves. Similarly Cudjoe might offer a bit more of an attacking threat ahead of Bateman, albeit Bateman has been fairly solid so far. Cudjoe has also played most of his rugby at right centre, where Watkins is a shoe-in which might be a factor in the decision. However, the kiwis haven't offered much threat in the centres and therefore there's no reason to be too defensive in this area.

 

I'd also be tempted to pick Westwood ahead of Whitehead who has so far struggled to make much of an impact at international level. Westwood is a proven performer vs NZ and Aus and makes things happen with a big run, an offload, a big hit etc. We need sparks like this to try and break the deadlock that we saw last week.

 

I'd also be tempted to give Jerry a run on the wing. Burgess hasn't done anything wrong, but he hasn't excelled either and i think McGillivary deserves a spot after the season he has had.

 

This isn't a world cup game, and although we obviously want to win the series, we can afford to be a bit more adventurous and so I'd rather we mix things up and have a go at doing something different, than pick the same solid lineup and hope we can edge a tight game by grinding out a win.

 

1. Hardaker

2. Hall

3. Watkins

4. Cudjoe

5. McGillivary

6. Gale

7. Widdop

8. Hill

9. Roby

10. Graham

11. Farrell

12. Westwood

13. O'loughlin

 

14. Hodgson

15. Burgess

16. Cooper

17. Ferres

[DavidM]

I'd have mcgillvarry and cudjoe on one side like for their clubs , Watkins and hall on the other . I'd have widdop at six and gale at seven . I'd have Westwood with whitehead in the second row to give us more to match their big fringe threats , and oomph . More than personnel though , we must change our style of attack . To much conservative , forward domination , even getting in the way of the halves. Take off the shackles , let the halves play and getting our backs some ball and freedom . The pack laying the platform , but letting the rest provide much more of the threat . It's to one out , over structured and predictable at present with forwards doing far to much in attack .Our defence is strong - now let's throw something at them and play to our games attacking strengths

[Exiled Wiganer]

I don't know what I'd do... it is at Wigan, and the local players have shown they are very at ease at the DW. Given that, looking at the key selections:

- Burgess or McG - Burgess, just, as the wide open spaces will suit him. Thinking back to the broncos match, he has form for causing damage to the best teams there;

- Bateman or Cudjoe - Cudjoe, just, more in hope than expectation that a career centre will get the ball out more than a makeshift one;

- Williams or Gale or Smith - Gale on form, Smith or Williams on the basis that they have played with Widdop. As Smith and Widdop seemed to work, and as Smith has shown that he can shine in really big games (Lance Todd winner, no less), I would go with Smith, though that means shutting my eyes to pretty much everything that has happened in 2014. Gale just seems too big a risk;

- second row - Bateman for Farrell, just. Westwood for Whitehead for one last tilt at glory.

It's on a knife edge.

[Ant]

Fwiw

Try assists this season

Cudjoe 16

Bateman 4

[DavidM]

Bateman is a Trojan with great assets , but it's tough on him , and tbh it's a bit of an indictment on our set up that he's playing centre at international level . I think it's also maybe a reflection on Big Mac

[chuffer]

looking at the key selections:

- Burgess or McG - Burgess, just, as the wide open spaces will suit him. Thinking back to the broncos match, he has form for causing damage to the best teams there;

- Bateman or Cudjoe - Cudjoe, just, more in hope than expectation that a career centre will get the ball out more than a makeshift one;

- Williams or Gale or Smith - Gale on form, Smith or Williams on the basis that they have played with Widdop. As Smith and Widdop seemed to work, and as Smith has shown that he can shine in really big games (Lance Todd winner, no less), I would go with Smith, though that means shutting my eyes to pretty much everything that has happened in 2014. Gale just seems too big a risk;

- second row - Bateman for Farrell, just. Westwood for Whitehead for one last tilt at glory.

It's on a knife edge.

 

Agree with all of this and the reasoning behind it....though maybe I'd perhaps edge McG ahead of Burgess based on form this year

[nathanwood7]

Bateman is a Trojan with great assets , but it's tough on him , and tbh it's a bit of an indictment on our set up that he's playing centre at international level . I think it's also maybe a reflection on Big Mac

 

We've come a long way since Farrell at stand-off, Forshaw at hooker or Horne on the wing, but it is still sad that we don't have enough talent at left centre to avoid having to go with a makeshift option (accepting the obvious choice in Jack Reed is currently injured). That having been said, it's hard to argue that Cudjoe isn't worth a shot ahead of Bateman - he's certainly not disgraced himself at international level before, and has had another good season for Huddersfield. Bateman is a good young player and I can understand the thinking behind giving him a go at centre, but given the Kiwis haven't troubled us too much down their right side, I would go with the more attacking option of Cudjoe.

 

Hopefully the likes of Toby King and Oliver Gildart can continue to push on and give some strength in depth to this position.

[GeordieSaint]

Difficult one... I wouldn't want to make wholesale changes to the side as I think our Defence has been awesome, largely through communication and understanding. Change too much and you risk breaking that... Loads of calls on Redvee for Hodgson to be dropped and replaced by an 80min Roby stint but thought Roby was very ineffective of Saturday and it was Hodgson who set up what should have been a try from Graham (stupid sod dropping it!). I do think we need a bit more punch on the fringes i.e. second row to relieve some pressure on the props and a little bit more creativity so I'd go with the following:

 

1. Hardaker

2. Burgess

3. Watkins

4. Cudjoe (Bateman has done absolutely nothing wrong but he is just not a centre)

5. Hall

6. Widdop

7. Smith (Tough call but I think Smith played well with Widdop last year so will fit in better than a debutant in Gale)

8. Hill

9. Hodgson

10. Graham

11. Ferres

12. Westwood (Bags of aggression and more impact carrying the ball)

13. O'Loughlin

 

Subs

 

14. Roby

15. T Burgess

16. Cooper 

17. Bateman

[DavidM]

Yes good point , for all the video ref talk , he should have grabbed that golden chance . But that's top level sport I guess . I know we haven't seen that much of him , but I always feel Reed is a huge miss for us . Leaves a big hole to fill

[Guest]

We've come a long way since Farrell at stand-off, Forshaw at hooker or Horne on the wing, but it is still sad that we don't have enough talent at left centre to avoid having to go with a makeshift option (accepting the obvious choice in Jack Reed is currently injured). That having been said, it's hard to argue that Cudjoe isn't worth a shot ahead of Bateman - he's certainly not disgraced himself at international level before, and has had another good season for Huddersfield. Bateman is a good young player and I can understand the thinking behind giving him a go at centre, but given the Kiwis haven't troubled us too much down their right side, I would go with the more attacking option of Cudjoe.

 

Hopefully the likes of Toby King and Oliver Gildart can continue to push on and give some strength in depth to this position.

This is where a good coach earns his corn and changes his team to win a 3rd test decider. I'd bring in cudjoe and mcgilvary and leave burgess out of the 17 and drop Bateman to the bench. As for the likes of Toby king and Oliver gildart who look real talents I think they are at least 2-3 years away from international rugby. I honestly think that mark Percival at saints with another full season behind him next year will be knocking on the door for international selection giving us him, Watkins and reed challenging for the centres.

[GeordieSaint]

I know we haven't seen that much of him , but I always feel Reed is a huge miss for us . Leaves a big hole to fill

 

Very much so but when up against Whare and will very little ball, even Greg Inglis would struggle to make any headway with England's current attacking framework.

[DavidM]

Indeed

[glossop saint]

Come on England!  After all the (understandable in my opinion) negativity last weekend I'm really anticipating a massive game this weekend.  A real clash of the titans, both teams determined to seize the series.  As long as there is quality, effort, excitement and tension I will be happy, and everything crossed for an England win.

 

I'm not sure what team I want to see to be honest.  Given that we have invested so much time and effort into the current line up I am just hoping that it will click and they will get it right as opposed to starting again with new combinations.  Having said that they got worse last week so maybe now is the time for a change.  I know it mixes the left/right up a bit but I would like to see Watkins/Hall and either Cudjoe/McG or Bateman/Burgess, just about favouring the Hudds pairing.  Possibly bring Smith into the halves to replace Williams, purely for the kicking game, which needs an improvement after getting out kicked by the NZ part time halves.  And finally, possibly bring in either Westwood or Currie (or Bateman) into the second row for Farrell or Ferres, depending on what sort of game we want to play.

[Exiled Wiganer]

I should have said that I genuinely believe that whichever combination of the players we are discussing we go with is capable of winning this game.

One factor which I think will help us is the grass - football pitches have much shorter grass than union ones (am assuming the grass was cut to union length on Sturday), which will help ball movement.

I would not discount the DW/Wigan factor in the decisions (it is only this that makes me prefer Burgess). We have played 10 times better individually and collectively there.

[Exiled Wiganer]

Double post.

[snapski]

Doesn't matter what we all think. We all know the coach isn't going to change the team, or the way we play.

Been a massive opportunity missed in this series for me.

[Ant]

Doesn't matter what we all think. We all know the coach isn't going to change the team, or the way we play.

Been a massive opportunity missed in this series for me.

Just like the world cup and the four nations and the exiles games

[Blind side johnny]

Difficult one... I wouldn't want to make wholesale changes to the side as I think our Defence has been awesome, largely through communication and understanding. Change too much and you risk breaking that... Loads of calls on Redvee for Hodgson to be dropped and replaced by an 80min Roby stint but thought Roby was very ineffective of Saturday and it was Hodgson who set up what should have been a try from Graham (stupid sod dropping it!). I do think we need a bit more punch on the fringes i.e. second row to relieve some pressure on the props and a little bit more creativity so I'd go with the following:

 

1. Hardaker

2. Burgess

3. Watkins

4. Cudjoe (Bateman has done absolutely nothing wrong but he is just not a centre)

5. Hall

6. Widdop

7. Smith (Tough call but I think Smith played well with Widdop last year so will fit in better than a debutant in Gale)

8. Hill

9. Hodgson

10. Graham

11. Ferres

12. Westwood (Bags of aggression and more impact carrying the ball)

13. O'Loughlin

 

Subs

 

14. Roby

15. T Burgess

16. Cooper 

17. Bateman

 

 

Yep, I'd go with that.

 

We don't need to be gung ho though, just more expansive than on Saturday - for a moment I thought we'd gone back to unlimited tackles.

[roughyedspud]

Sod it......england by 20

[DavidM]

Huge week and pressure on Big Mac . An achievement to build on or the end of an inglorious tenure ... How will he react . We want him to free us up , but can he and will he ?

[roughyedspud]

He has to change the halfbacks..

id go widdop & smith...

I think though that if macbanana does change it he'll go smith & williams,the club combo on their own pitch...i can see the logic in that...but then again when does macbanana think logically??

[snapski]

People who think the team should be full of Wigan players because of where it's being played, are as blind as the coach we have in charge.

[johnh1]

I've got no idea who should play. I will be there supporting whoever plays. Can't wait.