The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Pottsy]

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Edited August 4, 2013 by Pottsy

[Pottsy]

I've been focusing on the cup run for the last few weeks rather than the politics of the league, Pottsy. I kinda got bored of the indecisiveness of what they were putting forward (and then this thread got really long so I couldn't be bothered to keep up with what was happening!).

I agree with Derwent that if the league points roll over into the SL play-offs then it will make it pointless for the teams around 7-8th. They have little hope in making the top four at that stage so their season will effectively be over. After you make the 8, it needs to be a separate competition. That's how you'll get the most intense competition on the field and most interest off it. The league leaders shield should be the prize after 22 rounds and should be enough to keep the top teams motivated up to the split whilst the rest battle for the 8.

The problem is that if you clean the slate you render the opening 22 rounds largely pointless once you've racked up enough points to guarantee a top eight finish. Judging by the current table, once you've hit 11-12 wins you're home and hosed and put your cue on the rack.

This new system might well turn out to be a roaring success but its essential that all of these flaws are aired and discussed now.

[bobbruce]

The problem is that if you clean the slate you render the opening 22 rounds largely po

Why not award points in the reverse of finishing positions after 23 rds then. So 8 place gets 1 point 7th - 2,6th - 3 and so on. That way teams are rewarded for their performance in the earlier rounds but all the teams could still make or drop out of the play-offs.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Regarding London, I have sadly stopped going to the last few games because there is nothing to play for quite frankly. I cant justify the money. Had they been fighting for their lives last Thurs I would have gone though, as I did when they were in a similar position at Brentford (which saw them escape relegation by beating the likes of Wigan, with good attendances). The atmosphere is FAR better under the threat of relegation -and the joy of a win is far far higher. I suspect quite a lot of other London fans feel the same, and I suspect the same applies at other lower SL clubs. The game needs the jeopardy element at the bottom.
 

 

thankfully nobody told the Broncos players there was nothing to play for theiur display was full of heart and committment

 

time and time again by all sorts of different people you have been presented with hard factual, evidence that relegatio0n battles had little or no affect on attendances or scores-and actual last days of the season relegation games were almost non existent.

But you still disregard this.

I see you have adopted  the new buzzword jeopardy, congratulations.

the last time we had auro relegation how much jeopardy was there in the last few or in fact just about any of Leigh's games?

Edited August 4, 2013 by l'angelo mysterioso

[Wellsy4HullFC]

The problem is that if you clean the slate you render the opening 22 rounds largely pointless once you've racked up enough points to guarantee a top eight finish. Judging by the current table, once you've hit 11-12 wins you're home and hosed and put your cue on the rack.

This new system might well turn out to be a roaring success but its essential that all of these flaws are aired and discussed now.

The top three have been battling it out for top spot.

5th-8th have been in and out of the play-offs this season and aren't exactly safe.

I think there'd be plenty for them to play for personally. More so than if they kept the points going into the next tier.

But these things need ironing out, you're right. I think carrying the points on might work for the bottom tier though. You wouldn't want a side that's finished 5th before the split having a bad run and getting relegated.

[Lobbygobbler]

Regarding London, I have sadly stopped going to the last few games because there is nothing to play for quite frankly. I cant justify the money. Had they been fighting for their lives last Thurs I would have gone though, as I did when they were in a similar position at Brentford (which saw them escape relegation by beating the likes of Wigan, with good attendances). The atmosphere is FAR better under the threat of relegation -and the joy of a win is far far higher. I suspect quite a lot of other London fans feel the same, and I suspect the same applies at other lower SL clubs. The game needs the jeopardy element at the bottom.

thankfully nobody told the Broncos players there was nothing to play for theiur display was full of heart and committment

time and time again by all sorts of different people you have been presented with hard factual, evidence that relegatio0n battles had little or no affect on attendances or scores-and actual last days of the season relegation games were almost non existent.

But you still disregard this.

I see you have adopted the new buzzword jeopardy, congratulations.

the last time we had auro relegation how much jeopardy was there in the last few or in fact just about any of Leigh's games?

Afternoon L'Ange. Hope you enjoyed the rugby this afternoon, whatever you watched. I certainly enjoyed todays game at Skolars where promotion was up for grabs. Regarding 'Jeopardy' - actually the new plans would implement 'double jeopardy' because there would be little difference between promotion and relegation.

Lets just look forward to it eh and hope it works. Enjoy your evening mate

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Afternoon L'Ange. Hope you enjoyed the rugby this afternoon, whatever you watched. I certainly enjoyed todays game at Skolars where promotion was up for grabs. Regarding 'Jeopardy' - actually the new plans would implement 'double jeopardy' because there would be little difference between promotion and relegation.

Lets just look forward to it eh and hope it works. Enjoy your evening mate

cop out

[redjonn]

You've not actually said why it's a farce! You've just said that you don't like it! If it's not complicated, what's the issue?

I'd personally have the Magic Weekend in the second part of the season which would help this problem (as well as the imbalance of the home fixtures).

But it's a natural thing in sport that the top teams play each other more than twice. How many times do Man Utd play the likes of Chelsea etc? I'm sure there was a season where they played them twice in the league, in the FA cup and twice in the Champions League.

If you buy a season ticket (which is what they'll be pushing), why would you pick and choose games?

 

Fair enough...

 

Whilst I think it is not particularly complicated given comparison with current play off system as per my comment I do think that:

- It doesn't make ease of explaining to non rugby league fan's and hence won't make it easier to sell the game. Plus I wonder what sponsors and commercial supporters may make of it.

- To many familiar fixtures as mentioned. Your comparison with football is not valid in my opinion as the reason for playing a team more than twice is down to additional competitions, e.g. FA cup, league cup, champions league.. all depending upon draw. This adds more weight to those games given its another competition rather than still the league which only has x2 games.  In Scotland they played each other x4 times in the league to try and increase attendances but it hasn't saved Scottish football.    I didn't include the challenge cup so as to compare just the league games hence compare to football need to do apples to apples.

- I don't think the fundamental issues to be addressed in rugby league will be solved by tinkering with league structures. Particularly one that is so called innovative or to other non rugby league fans maybe an indication of desperate state of our sport (I don't like saying that) although we have a great game (note game as distinct from product).   This new structure doesn't add to the product but for me distracts.    The old re-structure in Scottish football (not latest) never solved the problems they just made it seem desperate to us non watching Scottish football observers.

The last point is the primary point in that it won't tackle the deep seated issues but just enable us to be doing something. Mind you other actions may address the fundamental issues but I haven't heard what that is because all the conversations and reporting has been about the structure of the league.

 

I like the idea of bringing back promotion and relegation or the similar concept.  This I believe will enable the chance of increased investment lower down outside of current super-league as aspiration hopes are "lit up."  Note I say "enable the chance" as I believe the licence system acts as a discouragement to invest lower down.

 

Your right in that I buy season ticket and I guess it will depend upon how they package the offerings. Although as I enjoy the game I will probably attend through out. However I sometimes I think the structure will give the option of just purchasing a "sub set" or sample season ticket as they current do today. i.e. can buy grouping of games rather than full season ticket.

 

I agree with your point of the magic weekend being part of the 2nd round of league (x8).  As the opening round.  I guess you could have x2 of the 3 groups of 8, one on the sat and the other on the Sunday.  Providing all the monies is shared amongst all the x3 group of 8 teams.

Edited August 4, 2013 by redjonn

[Pottsy]

Just a thought: if the restructure of #RugbyLeague is really a 'whole game solution' then why not 4x10 + 5x8? Think about it.

Before anyone asks, that still yields 26 fixtures.

[808tone]

Will the Skolar's ever overthrow the Bronco's.

[Griff]

If you buy a season ticket (which is what they'll be pushing), why would you pick and choose games?

Can't imagine why anyone not 110%(if not more) committed buys season tickets these days. Too much changing of fixture dates at the drop of a hat.

[Griff]

You're right in that I buy season ticket and I guess it will depend upon how they package the offerings. Although as I enjoy the game I will probably attend through out. However I sometimes I think the structure will give the option of just purchasing a "sub set" or sample season ticket as they current do today. i.e. can buy grouping of games rather than full season ticket.

That might be the way it goes. Either way, the traditional season ticket needs a careful review and study. We already have a problem with season ticket holders not wanting to pay at the gate for shared gate games (well - that's the generally advertised reason). This two twelves, three eights nonsense isn't going to help season ticket sales, that's for sure.

[Keith T]

Was KPMG also behind the Scottish Professional Football League's similar idea of this 2 x; 3 x 8 split system which was thrown out in April 2013 by the clubs?

Austria tried this system 20 years ago and it lasted 8 years and Switzerland tried a similar system which was abandoned in 2003 due to falling gates and clubs getting in to financial difficulties.

[Pottsy]

That might be the way it goes. Either way, the traditional season ticket needs a careful review and study. We already have a problem with season ticket holders not wanting to pay at the gate for shared gate games (well - that's the generally advertised reason). This two twelves, three eights nonsense isn't going to help season ticket sales, that's for sure.

Part of the drive towards this structure is clearly to fit more games into the season ticket.

[South Wakefield Sharks]

The final 7 games (ie when we go to the 8s) will be part of the season ticket. It will only be the one play-off game (1v4, 2v3) that will not be included in the season ticket, and that match should be much more attractive as a play-off as it will be winner takes all.

[Ackroman]

If they add a challenge cup game to the season ticket as well then it may bolster that competitions appeal. Obviously this would take some collaboration.

 

If it was me in the marketing department of a club my strategy would be a bronze, silver and gold package aimed at helping people of all incomes watch rugby league.

 

if you could only afford half a season then at least the bronze would allow you to pick and choose your games. The silver would benefit regular supporters and the gold the fanatics.

 

My goal would be to minimise the walk up and pay punter which is just about the system you get in football.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Can't imagine why anyone not 110%(if not more) committed buys season tickets these days. Too much changing of fixture dates at the drop of a hat.

Is that different to how it's ever been in any top level televised sport?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

If they add a challenge cup game to the season ticket as well then it may bolster that competitions appeal. Obviously this would take some collaboration.

If it was me in the marketing department of a club my strategy would be a bronze, silver and gold package aimed at helping people of all incomes watch rugby league.

if you could only afford half a season then at least the bronze would allow you to pick and choose your games. The silver would benefit regular supporters and the gold the fanatics.

My goal would be to minimise the walk up and pay punter which is just about the system you get in football.

Only issue I can think of for that would be for those smaller stadiums where you'd need to allocate certain amounts of capacity to. If say Wakefield did this, they may have issues for the visits of Cas and Leeds. Maybe you could have them confirm which games they're going to within a certain amount of time and then they go on general sale?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

If they add a challenge cup game to the season ticket as well then it may bolster that competitions appeal. Obviously this would take some collaboration.

 

If it was me in the marketing department of a club my strategy would be a bronze, silver and gold package aimed at helping people of all incomes watch rugby league.

 

if you could only afford half a season then at least the bronze would allow you to pick and choose your games. The silver would benefit regular supporters and the gold the fanatics.

 

My goal would be to minimise the walk up and pay punter which is just about the system you get in football.

 

 

If they add a challenge cup game to the season ticket as well then it may bolster that competitions appeal. Obviously this would take some collaboration.

 

If it was me in the marketing department of a club my strategy would be a bronze, silver and gold package aimed at helping people of all incomes watch rugby league.

 

if you could only afford half a season then at least the bronze would allow you to pick and choose your games. The silver would benefit regular supporters and the gold the fanatics.

 

My goal would be to minimise the walk up and pay punter which is just about the system you get in football.

what if the team doesn't get drawn at home during its tenure in the comp that particular season? Also there is the revenue from a shared gate to be considered. I think these are the two main reasons why cup games aren't included in season tickets

[nadera78]

When this format was first mooted one of the questions raised by fans was about the season ticket, especially for the teams being 'relegated' into the 2nd group of 8 at the end of the season. The response from Ralph Rimmer was that it was for the clubs to decide, which is clearly an inadequate answer. There simply must be some planning as to how clubs can convince people to buy season tickets for SL and then end up watching SL2. Anyway, when he was asked this again at the forum last week, his answer was exactly the same. It would seem to me that the RFL are still not keen to actually work through the issues with this format. 

[a.n Other]

When this format was first mooted one of the questions raised by fans was about the season ticket, especially for the teams being 'relegated' into the 2nd group of 8 at the end of the season. The response from Ralph Rimmer was that it was for the clubs to decide, which is clearly an inadequate answer. There simply must be some planning as to how clubs can convince people to buy season tickets for SL and then end up watching SL2. Anyway, when he was asked this again at the forum last week, his answer was exactly the same. It would seem to me that the RFL are still not keen to actually work through the issues with this format.

Can't see that this will be an issue now that a SL club playing in the middle 8 will more than likely only have 3 league games against a championship side.

[Griff]

Is that different to how it's ever been in any top level televised sport?

Depends how far back "ever" is .......

I'd say "yes". Maybe I'm just older......

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Can't see that this will be an issue now that a SL club playing in the middle 8 will more than likely only have 3 league games against a championship side.

Exactly. If you finish in the bottom four, you've got three home games against top end Championship clubs (who lets be fair, will put up a good game still and actually give supporters of a SL club a good chance of seeing a win).

It's hardly half a season. In fact, since the season all have 14 home games instead of 13, it's only two less games against SL opposition. In fact, less than that because at least one of then will likely be a SL side. And even further, of the right clubs in that round, only two will not be in the top 14 clubs in the country which they'd currently be playing now.

[Keith T]

Exactly. If you finish in the bottom four, you've got three home games against top end Championship clubs (who lets be fair, will put up a good game still and actually give supporters of a SL club a good chance of seeing a win).

It's hardly half a season. In fact, since the season all have 14 home games instead of 13, it's only two less games against SL opposition. In fact, less than that because at least one of then will likely be a SL side. And even further, of the right clubs in that round, only two will not be in the top 14 clubs in the country which they'd currently be playing now.

The three home games could be against SL1 and Championship teams as it is impossible for the Championship teams to all be at home to SL1 teams and vice versa. Even more so when they have already said that the Championship teams will each have four home games!!!

[Pottsy]

Having accepted that the new structure is going to be implemented, the one tweak I would suggest is that the magic weekend should occur during the 'super eight' stage of the season.

This would fix the quandary about inequitable fixtures and would mean that the Magic games would really matter.

My preference would be for all 24 clubs involved in Magic and for the cost of magic to be incorporated into each club's season ticket (Salford already does this).

The only venue that could handle 24 clubs is Cardiff though (assuming the Arms Park is still there).