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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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No. You said was the new system more complex than the old one. Given that in the old one there were only two parts and that for six of the teams nothing happened once they didn't make the play offs obviously it's more complicated now.

Err, I'm pretty sure I said the new system is less complicated than the current system?

If I summarised it the way you did, I could just say:

New system - top 8 after 23 rounds play off to be champions. Bottom 4 play off with top 4 of the next tier to be promoted.

Old system - top 8 after 27 rounds play off to be champions. No relegation.

Seems more complicated when you talk about the relegation system. But considering there is no relegation, anything is more complicated than nothing. Not difficult to comprehend!

If you explain the top 8 playoff of each system, the new system is by far the least complicated.

But, just for you. This is how the entire Super League season can be summed up:

At present, in Super League, fourteen teams play a twenty-seven round regular season. At the end of this season eight teams qualify for the play-offs from which a champion is crowned. The other six teams play no further matches. The play-offs last for four weeks. In each of the weeks two teams are eliminated (with those who finished highest in the table having a second chance, those who finished lower going home on a single defeat) until the fourth week when the surviving teams contest the grand final.

That doesn't even half explain what happens in those four weeks. Again, you're the one claiming complexity of the new system, but you still have failed to explain completely the current play offs.

This is my point exactly.

In the future, in Super League, twelve teams will play a twenty-three round regular season. At the end of this season eight teams qualify for the play-offs from which a champion is crowned. The other four teams join with the top four teams from the Championship. The eight SL play-off teams play seven further league fixtures adding to their points they have already accumulated. The top four sides receive the advantage of having four home games. After these fixtures the top four contest for the title in a straightforward knock-out lasting two weeks. The other Super League sides also play an additional seven fixtures with four of their matches being away from home. Their points start over at this point. At the end of this mini-league the top three teams automatically join SL for the following season whilst teams 4 and 5 in the table play a one-off game, the winner of which joins SL.

Here, you have attempted to explain a bit more in detail, yet have chosen to hide the detail of the last system as to show it being less complex.

I'll add the bits you forgot to mention:

New system:

After 23 rounds, the top 8 play off. They have 7 games against each other in a round robin. The top four then go into a two week straight knock out to determine the champions.

Old system:

After 27 rounds, the top 8 play off. The top four play off in week one to determine who goes to week three, with the losers going into week two. The next four play in elimination games to qualify for week two. They then play the losers of the top for in week two. The winners then go to week three in a straight knockout to the final (with games determined by a club call). All games before that are determined on "highest ranked vs lowest ranked".

It is ridiculously complicated, and I know many many casual fans that still don't understand it.

Like I've said, it's one of the geniuses of the new system that its response to the oft-stated belief that 8 from 14 devalues the play-offs is to move it to 8 from 12.

It's an interesting take on it, but I think the lack of incentive to finish higher in the table is what devalued it the most.
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Ah well.  You like the new system, I think it's a gimmicky waste of time that has taken up time and resources the RFL could better have used addressing the many, many problems the game faces.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Do you honestly think the current Top 8 is 'ridiculously complicated'?

 

Honestly?

 

I mean, it's a useless system (being 8 from 14 and not giving enough reward to higher placed teams) and club call is a pointless gimmick but it's a pretty easy system to follow.

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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

 

I think you're right, straight forward P&R would make promotion much easier.  But it would do the game a dis service.  Under 3x8 only a club that has demonstrated it can beat the worst SL clubs in the play off will go up. 

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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

It's certainly going to be interesting to see how it pans out. 4 teams with salary caps of 1.85 million vs 4 teams with salary caps of 900k doesn't quite seem fair. But then after reading the salary cap details both teams could in fact be paying squads far more than this within the rules. I agree it could well end up without any teams ever getting promoted. But also I don't think there are 12 really strong clubs who can all fend off the threat of losing to these lower teams.

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Ah well. You like the new system, I think it's a gimmicky waste of time that has taken up time and resources the RFL could better have used addressing the many, many problems the game faces.

By getting rid of the licensing process, they will have freed up a lot of time to address the rest of the problems the game faces.
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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

 

I have said it before. If the licence system was still in place then Featherstone would be in pole position to take a licence with Cas, Wakey, London, Bradford etc. being in dire jeopardy. They had done everything right in terms of putting together programmes, stadium development and other stuff required.

 

There are only so many SL standard players to go around and not many of them will be signing for Championship clubs in the hope of an outside shot at the 4 out of 8 (8x3) lottery. Only 2 of the current Championship clubs are going to be in the second group of eight in all honesty. This means that any three from Batley, Leigh, Sheffield, Featherstone, Halifax could miss out.

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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

It could be harder than a one up/down system, yes.

But if the Championship is to get more funding to field a few full time sides, the gap will hopefully be significantly bridged. It could be bridged to an extent that more than one side goes up, which would make it easier to go up (more opportunity).

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I don't like it for many of the reasons mentioned. We'll start panicking as soon as the bottom 4 SL (or whatever we're calling it) clubs thump the top 4 Champ (or whatever we're calling it) clubs, and probably start again with something else. 

 

For me one of the litmus tests is: is it feasible that this system is robust enough to use for the next 10-20 years? I'd say not.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

That's exactly right. This system is designed to placate Championship clubs by seemingly offering them a straightforward shot at promotion but, in reality, a promotion will be rarer and more infrequent than getting to SL under licencing.

Time will tell, but I think one team every four or so years might get promoted.

Guaranteed promotion for the championship winners ( subject to minimum standards being met ) is better than a stacked playoff ###### shoot against higher financed and battle tested opponents.

I am a staunch advocate of p and r but this hybrid heath robinson contraption with more questions than answers will be a disaster for Championship clubs.

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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

 

I believe that myself, But it will take 2/3 seasons for it to dawn on some clubs, By which time they will either have gone bust trying to compete with the top clubs, ( if they are really ambitious ) or they will have settled for playing at a lower level and will somehow be pulling in mega crowds, by doing so.

 

Either way i fail to see how they are going to add anything at all to the top of the game.

 

After nearly 4,000 posts , ( with some very good ones both sides ) It still makes little sense to me.  I should be quite happy with the prospect of playing the games top clubs more often,  But it seems to me that it's possible to play the same team 6 times in a season.

 

I don't see this middle tier pulling in anything like the crowds it's claimed, but like everyone else I hope i'm wrong.  With regards to your own club, IMO it will , In the next few years be the only SL club in the so called Calder area. I know i am risking the wrath of the Fev faithful saying that,  but i don't think Mr N is prepared to fund what's coming, Unless as i said earlier they are going to settle for lower level stuff, and it's all just been about getting the extra money.

 

A lot will depend on Sky of course, and you have to hope that someone at RFL has done some work on their wants, Because up to now they have shown little or no interest in anything below top level.

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There must be something in the water around Featherstone way, they are all paranoid, the whole lot of them.

I'd just like to say that the mods on here have always been fair, and I've had run ins in the past, but I have never felt that the mods have been nothing but even handed and sensible.

No need to tar us all with the same brush. There are certainly some Fev fans who could probably argue with themselves in an empty room, but I'd suggest there are plenty like that who post on here that support other teams too.

Personally, I've never seen any issue with how the moderating appears to work on here. Other differ, that's their prerogative, but as has already been pointed out, you can always post your thoughts elsewhere.

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does anyone feel that despite all the championship clubs seemingly falling over themselves to embrace the 3/8 s system, it will make promotion to super league a lot harder than a simple one up one down system. That everyone would understand and give a championship clubs a straight forward route to sl rather than just a chance to play a few sl clubs at the end of a hard season. I can't see anything other than the rare upset as in the c.c., over 7 games it will be very hard for part time to beat full time!

It is going to be difficult particularly in the first season with the two relegated sides receiving the most funding plus £250k parachute payment, but once it settles down I reckon one win against a SL side, as we've seen can quite easily happen, and three against championship teams should be enough to secure top four. So it is very achievable in my opinion. I don't think one up, one down was an option available to vote on was it?

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Either way i fail to see how they are going to add anything at all to the top of the game.

 

I know we're going round in circles for the umpteenth time but this is key for me.  The RFL have put forward a system that puts all the focus on mediocrity - indeed it practically celebrates it.

 

And in doing so they have hammered the final nail in the Challenge Cup, taken away the lower tiers' only chances of genuine silverware, given up the community game and waved a white flag at international development.

 

But, y'know, jeopardy.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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That's right, but finish 4th and that team would have to win another game against a SL side in the 4th v 5th playoff to gain promotion. Its gonna be hard but its a better system than licensing for me, all games mean something. The 3rd 8 are playing to win a trophy also and to stay in the championship as the bottom 2 of the 3rd 8 get relegated and 2 get promoted from championship 1. I think this will be a success.

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I know we're going round in circles for the umpteenth time but this is key for me.  The RFL have put forward a system that puts all the focus on mediocrity - indeed it practically celebrates it.

 

And in doing so they have hammered the final nail in the Challenge Cup, taken away the lower tiers' only chances of genuine silverware, given up the community game and waved a white flag at international development.

 

But, y'know, jeopardy.

 

Sky will love it, the whole game is in jeopardy.

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I know we're going round in circles for the umpteenth time but this is key for me.  The RFL have put forward a system that puts all the focus on mediocrity - indeed it practically celebrates it.

 

And in doing so they have hammered the final nail in the Challenge Cup, taken away the lower tiers' only chances of genuine silverware, given up the community game and waved a white flag at international development.

 

But, y'know, jeopardy.

 

Sums the whole thing up.

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I know we're going round in circles for the umpteenth time but this is key for me.  The RFL have put forward a system that puts all the focus on mediocrity - indeed it practically celebrates it.

 

And in doing so they have hammered the final nail in the Challenge Cup, taken away the lower tiers' only chances of genuine silverware, given up the community game and waved a white flag at international development.

 

But, y'know, jeopardy.

 

 

Sky will love it, the whole game is in jeopardy.

 

and won't Statler & Waldorf just love going over, and over, and over, and over, and over..........................it all

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and won't Statler & Waldorf just love going over, and over, and over, and over, and over..........................it all

 

Which one am I?  ;)

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Which one am I?  ;)

 

You're more Beaker & Padge...maybe Dr Teeth

Whilst I do not suffer fools gladly, I will always gladly make fools suffer

A man is getting along on the road of wisdom when he realises that his opinion is just an opinion

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I know we're going round in circles for the umpteenth time but this is key for me.  The RFL have put forward a system that puts all the focus on mediocrity - indeed it practically celebrates it.

 

And in doing so they have hammered the final nail in the Challenge Cup, taken away the lower tiers' only chances of genuine silverware, given up the community game and waved a white flag at international development.

 

But, y'know, jeopardy.

 

What makes me laugh is that people expect the same Wood-led RFL administration that brought us the list below to make a success of this structure: 

 

a. the failure of licensing through poor governance

b. the failure of the Stobart deal and no sponsor for the flagship competition

c. the Crusaders fiasco

d. the huge reduction in Sport England funding due to badly failing on their participation targets

e. dual registration

f. huge rifts in the community game... (I could continue...!)

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That's right, but finish 4th and that team would have to win another game against a SL side in the 4th v 5th playoff to gain promotion. Its gonna be hard but its a better system than licensing for me, all games mean something. The 3rd 8 are playing to win a trophy also and to stay in the championship as the bottom 2 of the 3rd 8 get relegated and 2 get promoted from championship 1. I think this will be a success.

 

But It's all about this middle 8 isn't it. ( not having a go at you personally ) As Gingerjon says it could be the end of the CC, and with 6 out of the 8 teams in the middle 8 being present SL clubs , It leaves as someone has said room for only 2 out of Fev, Sheffield Fax Leigh, Batley, whoever. ( God help us on here if Fev aren't one of them ).

 

The whole thing is ill thought out, I will say for the last time that the game needs to generate more money, Not spread out thinner what there is , And again in my opinion anyone who thinks Fans are going to flood in, in many extra thousands to watch a lower level game, is going to be disappointed. I get the thinking behind the local Derbies and all that, But why didn't it make these clubs big and successful before SL came along.

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But It's all about this middle 8 isn't it. ( not having a go at you personally ) As Gingerjon says it could be the end of the CC, and with 6 out of the 8 teams in the middle 8 being present SL clubs , It leaves as someone has said room for only 2 out of Fev, Sheffield Fax Leigh, Batley, whoever. ( God help us on here if Fev aren't one of them ).

 

The whole thing is ill thought out, I will say for the last time that the game needs to generate more money, Not spread out thinner what there is , And again in my opinion anyone who thinks Fans are going to flood in, in many extra thousands to watch a lower level game, is going to be disappointed. I get the thinking behind the local Derbies and all that, But why didn't it make these clubs big and successful before SL came along.

The idea that the RFL is celebrating mediocrity is difficult to understand. The top eight of SL will still be playing off to reach a grand final as far as I can see and below that there is now an intriguing battle to be had involving the rest of SL, who would normally just be playing the season out with nothing at stake, and the best of the Championship plus a similar battle lower down the scale. I'm really struggling to come up with one good reason why this won't capture the imagination and have the potential to increase crowds.

And by the way, if Fev don't make the cut then it will be down to them not being good enough and that's how it should be. I think your comment was uncalled for to be honest.

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