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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Sorry Parky, but I find reading Mr Sadlers reports does not give transparent coverage of a situation, he is like a traffic cop who wants to take you down his road of thinking, nothing at all wrong with that if you are a disciple of his, fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be I am not.  

 

That's fine but Mr. Sadler did not take the view, and is not pushing the view that five of the top eight clubs and Mr. Koukash do not want 2x12=2x8. He reported the fact they wanted a 12 club SL with a partly close door.

 

He may push his idea of which way this is going you may wish to push with Terry your idea these six have seen the light.

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Do they keep the cash pot by not paying players and staff on contracts? If not how do they do it

 

The difference in the cash pot (hand out each season) will be 2:1 by the time the SL clubs have thrashed it out. The whole season for those in positions 9-12 will be about a 1.4m pot (guesstimate) against 700k. Not to include loss of sponsors and probably some gifted young players with relegation release clauses.

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Parky, has it ever crossed your mind that the said chairmen may well have preferred the alternative but are flexible enough and open minded enough to see the merits of the adopted plan and be happy to give it their full support?

 

Yes sir, please see My post above to Gary. I am however a Sadleryte so I am biased......

Edited by The Parksider
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I have this worry about clubs 9-12 in SL. We could get a situation where the top 7 places (or even 7/8) are sewn up pretty early each season. Then it simply becomes a task for the 9-12 clubs to keep the cash pot for the following season. Hence, my earlier post (about 20 pages back lol) about lower SL clubs giving away the last half a dozen games in the 23, resting their best players and sending out the academy.

 

All the emphasis will be on winning the first few games of 2x8 and securing their cash pot for next year. SL play-off ambitions will never enter their planning.

 

Great post, great reply and anlysis from Dave, and we shall see what tactics the "poor" SL clubs adopt when the new system comes around. Fascinating.....

 

Nice debate today, no abuse/goading or "lock this thread" moaning minnies.....

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SL 5 - Rd 19, teams 9-11 can still make top 8, team 12 are adrift.

SL 6 - Rd 19, teams 9-11 can still make top 8, team 12 are adrift.

SL 7 - Rd 19 teams 9-11 can still make top 8, team 12 are adrift.

SL 8 - Rd 19 teams 9&9 can still make top 8, teams 11 & 12 are adrift.

SL 9 - Rd 19 teams 9-11 can technically still make top 8 (although 10/11 are some way off) , team 12 are adrift.

SL 10 - Rd 19 teams 9-11 can still make top 8, team 12 are adrift.

SL 11 - All teams can make the 8

SL 12 - All teams can make the 8

This is a sample of when we had a 12 team comp. After 19 rounds as you can see, the majority of teams could still make the 8, suggesting to me that they will still be going all out for the 8 with 4 rounds to go.

I also suspect that teams would rather try and keep playing to try and work some form back prior to the 7 games.

Thanks Dave. Saved me a job! I was wondering how many would still be in at so close to 23 rounds in.

So what if some teams decided to rest players and concentrate on a certain part of the season? Does that not happen in all sports (and in our sport currently)? It's all part of the game. Eventually things balance out. If a coach chooses to rest players, they may find that they're not as prepared an get relegated.

What incentive do clubs have to try in the current system when they're not in the play off hunt? It's an equal argument.

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Thanks Dave. Saved me a job! I was wondering how many would still be in at so close to 23 rounds in.

So what if some teams decided to rest players and concentrate on a certain part of the season? Does that not happen in all sports (and in our sport currently)? It's all part of the game. Eventually things balance out. If a coach chooses to rest players, they may find that they're not as prepared an get relegated.

What incentive do clubs have to try in the current system when they're not in the play off hunt? It's an equal argument.

 

No it isn't really because the next phase you start on zero. So when you are out of the play-offs you are literally playing for nothing.

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Where did you get those stats from anyway, Dave?

Reason I ask is if like to see how many points off the top four the teams in 5th-8th are after 23 rounds each season. I have a concern that some clubs will not be able to reach the top four from eighth with 7 games to go, since the points carry over.

I suppose one way to rectify this would be to make points for winning a game in the play-offs worth 3 points so there is more chance of displacing a team at the back end of the season.

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Not sure if this has been raised on this debate but I have seen it said that the 4 Championship teams will play all mid 8 group games against SL team at home. This will mean that either the team that finished 9th or 10th (or both) will play one at home and six away whereas the team that finished 4th in the Championship will have 5 or 6 home games and only one or two away.

 

Surely the above is a ridiculous state of affairs and doesn't reward excellence in a tougher league?

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Parky, has it ever crossed your mind that the said chairmen may well have preferred the alternative but are flexible enough and open minded enough to see the merits of the adopted plan and be happy to give it their full support?

 

It's crossed my mind very briefly and left as fast as it came.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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Parky, has it ever crossed your mind that the said chairmen may well have preferred the alternative but are flexible enough and open minded enough to see the merits of the adopted plan and be happy to give it their full support?

 

If that were so, they'd have voted for it.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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You've misread.

It says they will have four home fixtures. It doesn't say they will play SL clubs at home.

 

Agreed - it's a very common misconception.

 

As is that there'll be two games at home v $uperleague teams and two v Div 2 teams.  Just not possible.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Why? Just because it wasn't their preferred choice doesn't mean they think it won't work or doesn't deserve their support. It just means they thought that a different route was a better option but this one is still ok.

 

If that's your take on it - fine.  But it's not mine.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Thanks for the info Dave, very interesting, but I would imagine that changes quite dramatically with 2/3 games to go. IMO player rotation and resting will be commonplace in the last few rounds, the carrot is too important to drop games in the 2x8. In the end it will all be about retaining the SL cash season in and season out.

Naturally some teams will drop in the last game or two, but often it is quite close.

 

I think resting players is a slightly risky game, but using the full squad is a club's prerogative I suppose.

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No Griff, they preferred the other option and voted accordingly but lost. Doesn't mean they couldn't see anything good in the plan which went through.

 

I didn't realise there were two options on the table, I had assumed they didn't vote for this option but had no choice but to accept it because they were outvoted. 

 

That says to me they couldn't see anything good enough about it to get them to vote for it, But if it was vote for one or the other, that could change things.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

 

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

 

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

 

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

 

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

 

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

 

"At the moment the part timers  are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

 

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

 

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

Mark Aston, who has an unbeatable resume in RL, is stating exactly what myself and others without his authority and standing in the game, have been saying for weeks. The 3 x 8 does not guarantee that any team will be promoted and the probability, given as you day the disparite financial resources of the Championship clubs vis a vis SL clubs, is that nobe will be.

A traditional p and r system with a guarantee of promotion for the winner, even if they have to meet minimums standards to clinch the deal, is a must, This 3 x 8 system almost guarantees the retention of the status quo. It is practically a retention of a closed shop.

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We cannot go part time to full time and vice versa, the gap is too big hence the solution lies within some sort of full time tier two

I am a two full time tens and believe this structure will lead us to that in 3 years, if fax Leigh and Fev finish in the top 4 then I see all FT next season and much stronger the season after

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Mark Aston, who has an unbeatable resume in RL, is stating exactly what myself and others without his authority and standing in the game, have been saying for weeks. The 3 x 8 does not guarantee that any team will be promoted and the probability, given as you day the disparite financial resources of the Championship clubs vis a vis SL clubs, is that nobe will be.

A traditional p and r system with a guarantee of promotion for the winner, even if they have to meet minimums standards to clinch the deal, is a must, This 3 x 8 system almost guarantees the retention of the status quo. It is practically a retention of a closed shop.

 

It will be interesting to see which 2 teams can compete with the ( 6 at the moment) SL clubs who they will be up against in the first split.

 

If the posts on here are any indication it will be Fev and Leigh, Both claim they are going to be well funded.

 

The second season will be even more interesting because if either are successful in the first season , they will be playing 23 games against the better SL sides , rather than the worst.

 

After that it could be all change ;)

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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just wondering what would happen if London went down this year and we bring in Toulouse as well . Then the year later catalan came down . HOW would clubs in the championship fund them away trips ? Plus imagine if then they all finished in the bottom 8 of the championship it would be a financial disaster.

Chief Crazy Eagle

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