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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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don't know if this has been mentioned before, why did catalan not vote? if they had voted against the vote would have been 7 each and this thread would be locked by now.

and has it been mentioned that the play offs will be between the top 4.

I don't think it would be locked as I thought the RFL also had a vote. I suppose this allows them to come out in the press and say the clubs have voted in favour of the changes.

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You are playing for points and final standings and to say you finished higher than last year - thus improved - as Widnes did in 2013.

In 2015, Widnes could finish bottom on P23 L23 and start on 0 points in 2x8 and survive. In 2016 they could finish in 9th, P23 W11, miss out on the play-offs on points difference and start on 0 and get relegated. So in 2016 where have they finished 9th or 13th? Did they make progress on 2015 or go backwards?

The system rewards mediocrity sadly, and will be exploited fully be those clubs who want to keep their hands on the SL cash - season in; season out,.

What about a seeding structure for the middle 8? For example, the top ranked club of each division's 4 clubs (9th & 1st) could play the bottom ranked club of each division's 4 clubs (12th & 4th), home and away. 3rd and 4th would then do likewise and where you finish in the four would be important, as could secure you theoretically easier fixtures.

This is just an example of a seeding system, but I agree the initial leagues rounds need to count. Something like this could be the answer, but obviously funding and the cap are essential to anything working.

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As far as I know the changes don't come in until 2015. The only difference this season is 2 SL clubs get relegated and 5/6 champ clubs get relegated.

 

So you knew the answer all the time ,

 

And good riddance to em an all, if they aren't millionaires they should have been  kicked out years ago. :P

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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So you knew the answer all the time ,

And good riddance to em an all, if they aren't millionaires they should have been kicked out years ago. :P

Yes but I wasn't 100% on that. Plus seen as though your a giants fan I wanted you to have a change from last season and see what waiting and sweating was like lol.

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Yes but I wasn't 100% on that. Plus seen as though your a giants fan I wanted you to have a change from last season and see what waiting and sweating was like lol.

 

I could write a book about wooden spoons and relegation, I have paid for my time in the Sun.

 

I am one of the famous 300 who stood on the terrace in the rain you know, Me and the other 3,000 who claim to have been there that day, Actually it was one of our better crowds.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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There were more than two options.  The status quo was always an option.

 

OK so the 2x12=3x8 had six against, and the 12 and two down had seven against, but in both cases, those who voted "for" either system weren't against the other system as it was nearly as good?

 

So either way everyone would have been happy with both systems. Yet the average vote against a system was 6.5 and the average vote for a system was  also 6.5. It is clear that all 13 clubs who voted did not vote against staying at 14 with two up and two down?

 

That therefore means none voted against the status quo so clearly they were all happy with it. Given that Les Catalans didn't vote in either vote then they must have wanted the status quo? Therefore everyone was for it so the Status Quo actually won unanimously?

Edited by The Parksider
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So either way everyone would have been happy with both systems. Yet the average vote against a system was 6.5 and the average vote for a system was also 6.5. It is clear that all 13 clubs who voted did not vote against staying at 14 with two up and two down?

If 13 clubs vote on two items, the average will always be 6.5 you know. Whether it's 13-0 or 4-9, the average is always the same.

Again, a completely useless and pointless stat.

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It's just been pointed out over on the NCL board that that league appears to be moving to divisions of 12 all the way through from 2015.

 

Are we possibly seeing a ladder from SL to community via semi-pro forming?

 

Or just coincidence.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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I'm hoping that we'll eventually have more than 1up/down to the third division if we are to have enhanced mobility for non heartland clubs. It could take a long time for clubs to get out of the third division. This year is critical for clubs to stay in the second division

 

There's virtually no money trickling down to the third tier so, from 2015 onwards, it's going to be blinkin' hard work for any team to come up from the third tier to the second and stay there.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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OK so the 2x12=3x8 had six against, and the 12 and two down had seven against, but in both cases, those who voted "for" either system weren't against the other system as it was nearly as good?

 

So either way everyone would have been happy with both systems. Yet the average vote against a system was 6.5 and the average vote for a system was  also 6.5. It is clear that all 13 clubs who voted did not vote against staying at 14 with two up and two down?

 

That therefore means none voted against the status quo so clearly they were all happy with it. Given that Les Catalans didn't vote in either vote then they must have wanted the status quo? Therefore everyone was for it so the Status Quo actually won unanimously?

 

How do you know that "12 and two down" had seven against ?

 

As far as I know, that never made the vote.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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How do you know that "12 and two down" had seven against ?

 

I don't. I just thought I'd join in contriving an argument to suit a desired outcome, however it didn't work. It got my club Hunslet no nearer Superleague. The views on the various schemes are so heavily tainted with self interest from "brilliant scheme it will last forever" from the Cas CEO, to "load of rubbish" from the Bradford head coach.

 

I blame the RFL, SLE and KPMG for a proposal with a stated outcome - "bigger crowds" - which in turn has been broadcasted to us in a PR fashion all without a shred of published analytical evidence to back it up.

They only tell you the bits they want you to hear. That's fair enough it's their business and I have no say nor right to be told anything. But I do think that if we debate PR guff and further slant our own interpretations of why the club representatives talk so differently about the same thing (Cas CEO "help were skint and need releasing gently from SL".....Bradford coach"Help we're useless and don't want relegating") then we drift.

 

I personally like the idea from Craiq and Gaz that no matter what, opening up the leagues like this can find people out.......

 

1. Let's see if London can swim without licensing to protect them?

2. Lets see if certain SL clubs really deserve to be in there?

3. Let's see if certain CC clubs really can be better than SL clubs

4. Let those with the wallets either open them up and stop threatening to invest or shut them and go

5. Lets see if KPMG were right or wrong

 

My predictions? London and Featherstone to quickly swap places, Bradford to regain past glories, Cas Fev and Wakey to all be outside the eight, and Sheffield to finally fade.

 

Still to come - the central funding issue, and the reaction to that in terms of which chairmen will continue to invest in light of central funding because I think the less central funding the more standing down we will get.

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I don't. I just thought I'd join in contriving an argument to suit a desired outcome, however it didn't work. It got my club Hunslet no nearer Superleague. The views on the various schemes are so heavily tainted with self interest from "brilliant scheme it will last forever" from the Cas CEO, to "load of rubbish" from the Bradford head coach.

 

I blame the RFL, SLE and KPMG for a proposal with a stated outcome - "bigger crowds" - which in turn has been broadcasted to us in a PR fashion all without a shred of published analytical evidence to back it up.

They only tell you the bits they want you to hear. That's fair enough it's their business and I have no say nor right to be told anything. But I do think that if we debate PR guff and further slant our own interpretations of why the club representatives talk so differently about the same thing (Cas CEO "help were skint and need releasing gently from SL".....Bradford coach"Help we're useless and don't want relegating") then we drift.

 

I personally like the idea from Craiq and Gaz that no matter what, opening up the leagues like this can find people out.......

 

1. Let's see if London can swim without licensing to protect them?

2. Lets see if certain SL clubs really deserve to be in there?

3. Let's see if certain CC clubs really can be better than SL clubs

4. Let those with the wallets either open them up and stop threatening to invest or shut them and go

5. Lets see if KPMG were right or wrong

 

My predictions? London and Featherstone to quickly swap places, Bradford to regain past glories, Cas Fev and Wakey to all be outside the eight, and Sheffield to finally fade.

 

Still to come - the central funding issue, and the reaction to that in terms of which chairmen will continue to invest in light of central funding because I think the less central funding the more standing down we will get.

 

London and Featherstone swapping places may well mean them both staying in the same division.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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I don't. I just thought I'd join in contriving an argument to suit a desired outcome, however it didn't work. It got my club Hunslet no nearer Superleague. The views on the various schemes are so heavily tainted with self interest from "brilliant scheme it will last forever" from the Cas CEO, to "load of rubbish" from the Bradford head coach.

 

I blame the RFL, SLE and KPMG for a proposal with a stated outcome - "bigger crowds" - which in turn has been broadcasted to us in a PR fashion all without a shred of published analytical evidence to back it up.

They only tell you the bits they want you to hear. That's fair enough it's their business and I have no say nor right to be told anything. But I do think that if we debate PR guff and further slant our own interpretations of why the club representatives talk so differently about the same thing (Cas CEO "help were skint and need releasing gently from SL".....Bradford coach"Help we're useless and don't want relegating") then we drift.

 

I personally like the idea from Craiq and Gaz that no matter what, opening up the leagues like this can find people out.......

 

1. Let's see if London can swim without licensing to protect them?

2. Lets see if certain SL clubs really deserve to be in there?

3. Let's see if certain CC clubs really can be better than SL clubs

4. Let those with the wallets either open them up and stop threatening to invest or shut them and go

5. Lets see if KPMG were right or wrong

 

My predictions? London and Featherstone to quickly swap places, Bradford to regain past glories, Cas Fev and Wakey to all be outside the eight, and Sheffield to finally fade.

 

Still to come - the central funding issue, and the reaction to that in terms of which chairmen will continue to invest in light of central funding because I think the less central funding the more standing down we will get.

When have London been protected by licensing?

Check out upcoming international fixtures and highlights of past matches at http://rlfixtures.weebly.com

 

St Albans Centurions International Liaison Officer and former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

Moderator of the International board

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I don't. I just thought I'd join in contriving an argument to suit a desired outcome, however it didn't work. It got my club Hunslet no nearer Superleague. The views on the various schemes are so heavily tainted with self interest from "brilliant scheme it will last forever" from the Cas CEO, to "load of rubbish" from the Bradford head coach.

 

I blame the RFL, SLE and KPMG for a proposal with a stated outcome - "bigger crowds" - which in turn has been broadcasted to us in a PR fashion all without a shred of published analytical evidence to back it up.

They only tell you the bits they want you to hear. That's fair enough it's their business and I have no say nor right to be told anything. But I do think that if we debate PR guff and further slant our own interpretations of why the club representatives talk so differently about the same thing (Cas CEO "help were skint and need releasing gently from SL".....Bradford coach"Help we're useless and don't want relegating") then we drift.

 

I personally like the idea from Craiq and Gaz that no matter what, opening up the leagues like this can find people out.......

 

1. Let's see if London can swim without licensing to protect them?

2. Lets see if certain SL clubs really deserve to be in there?

3. Let's see if certain CC clubs really can be better than SL clubs

4. Let those with the wallets either open them up and stop threatening to invest or shut them and go

5. Lets see if KPMG were right or wrong

 

My predictions? London and Featherstone to quickly swap places, Bradford to regain past glories, Cas Fev and Wakey to all be outside the eight, and Sheffield to finally fade.

 

Still to come - the central funding issue, and the reaction to that in terms of which chairmen will continue to invest in light of central funding because I think the less central funding the more standing down we will get.

 

 

London are favourites to go down so how will they swap places?

 

Fev wont be in the top division to miss the 8 (unless you think they wont make the middle 8) to be perdantic every team will be 'in an 8'

 

Sheffield have been the top team for the last 2 years why would they suddenly fade? If anything they will grow with additional revenue....as its staggered through the division they will be on more than other clubs....

 

I honestly think its fev who may fade!!

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I'm hoping that we'll eventually have more than 1up/down to the third division if we are to have enhanced mobility for non heartland clubs. It could take a long time for clubs to get out of the third division. This year is critical for clubs to stay in the second division

From the end of the 2015 season there is to be 2 teams up and down between the Championship and Championship 1. The top team in Champ 1 promoted automatically and the other from a play-off between 2nd to 5th placed clubs. It is is only at the end of this season where ther is only 1 team promoted but with 5 (or 6) being relegated.

Edited by Keith T

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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London and Featherstone swapping places may well mean them both staying in the same division.

 

Ah yes but if they end a season with Fev finishing 3rd in the eight and London finishing 8 they will be swapping places won't they. Then will a freefalling London leave the Championship or the game altogether?

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When have London been protected by licensing?

 

London never came bottom, suggest we look at the facts.

 

If you look at the history Richard Lewis rescued London from being booted out of SL and had them re-instated alongside Les Catalans and he introduced a quasi-licence for Catalans protecting them from relegation. So Lewis was protectionist IMVHO.

 

Then when full licensing came in he could then ensure that London, Wales and France were protected in Superleague, so his expansion policy was protected and they could "grow". Protectionism again?

 

As it was Crusaders collapsed but still got a licence - protected or what??

 

Were London 2011 up to another 3 year licence?? Were crowds improving, results improving, the structures at London improving?? Not at all, they were protected because they were seen as "strategic" as the licensing panel said.

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Licensing itself is a protection.

Well then let's see if Wigan can swim without licensing to protect them?

Check out upcoming international fixtures and highlights of past matches at http://rlfixtures.weebly.com

 

St Albans Centurions International Liaison Officer and former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

Moderator of the International board

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London are favourites to go down so how will they swap places?

 

Fev wont be in the top division to miss the 8 (unless you think they wont make the middle 8) to be perdantic every team will be 'in an 8'

 

Sheffield have been the top team for the last 2 years why would they suddenly fade? If anything they will grow with additional revenue....as its staggered through the division they will be on more than other clubs....

 

I honestly think its fev who may fade!!

 

We all have our thoughts. As it stands today London cannot survive in SL and Featherstone have Nahaboo lined up to bankroll the clubs losses in full. Massive difference.So London relegated. Featherstone stay where they are 2014??.......

 

Then Fev are in the top four 2015 whilst London may even have packed in by then.So there's a swap over with London the team going down down down and Fev going up up but no, I don't see them breaking the top eight.

 

Now if Nahaboo buys out Cas and Wakey and closes them down I can see it, otherwise it's a mid table Calder "derbyfest" year on year......

 

I also note Hudgell lined up with Pearson despite the latter trying to pinch his best players all the time. Hudge was the first to openly call for 12 clubs. Methinks IMVHO he hoped the saved SKY money would be divvied up amongst the 12, so I assume he's not happy despite fans of Fev saying he's seen the light!!

 

Will both clubs end up outside the "8" as they have done before. Hull's start at Bradford was poor HKR have lost Dobson. I don't like the idea of an 8 clubs Superleague with nobody from Hull or Calder in it but hey ho....

Edited by The Parksider
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From the end of the 2015 season there is to be 2 teams up and down between the Championship and Championship 1. The top team in Champ 1 promoted automatically and the other from a play-off between 2nd to 5th placed clubs. It is is only at the end of this season where ther is only 1 team promoted but with 5 (or 6) being relegated.

 

I misread that bit before.  It is 2 up isn't it?  I thought it was 1.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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