The Ministry of Justice and Saudi Arabia

[Bedford Roughyed]

Some light reading on the curious goings on at the MoJ and contracts with Saudi Arabia -

 

http://jackofkent.com/2015/09/the-story-of-the-unfortunate-moj-and-saudi-commercial-proposal/ 

 

This links with Corbyn's letter to Dave -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34365856

[Old Frightful]

Thank goodness for that.

 

For one frightening moment, I thought this was going to be a discussion about "Chop chop square".

[Bedford Roughyed]

Thank goodness for that.

 

For one frightening moment, I thought this was going to be a discussion about "Chop chop square".

 

I think it might be Chop Chop Hammer Hammer square soon.... (beheading + crucifixion...)

[Just Browny]

Interesting read, thanks.

[tim2]

Crucifixion? Good. Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.

[Old Frightful]

(Sympathetic religious type to condemned man with cross...)."Allow me to lighten your burden", (takes cross off him.)

 

(Condemned man) "Eh?, oh, alright then" (Condemned man sprints off into the distance.)

[Bedford Roughyed]

Gove wants to scrap the deal.

 

Hammond wants to keep the Saudi's sweet.

 

Cameron can't explain why we voted the Saudi's onto the UN's Human Rights committee.

 

Ah well.

[GeordieSaint]

Gove wants to scrap the deal.

 

Hammond wants to keep the Saudi's sweet.

 

Cameron can't explain why we voted the Saudi's onto the UN's Human Rights committee.

 

Ah well.

 

Not sure what other people's experiences are with central government but in my experience, the Ministries don't work with each other very often and have conflicting views. That looks like a prime example! There are some shocking stories under a number of administrations I am aware of.

[Saint Toppy]

The M OJ contract aside, why is Corbyn getting so involved in what is essentially a local Saudi case involving a local Saudi citizen.

While many of us in the UK may diagree with the death penalty in Saudi (and lets not even get started on the US), and may see their justice system to be stacked against the defendant - should our MP's really be trying to interfere in such cases.

 

It smacks very much of Corbyn yet again being the mouthpiece for his Hezbollah chums where they see an injustice against Shia's ?

[Bedford Roughyed]

Cameron has sided with Gove.

 

The government has withdrawn from the Saudi prisons deal

[Bedford Roughyed]

The M OJ contract aside, why is Corbyn getting so involved in what is essentially a local Saudi case involving a local Saudi citizen.

While many of us in the UK may diagree with the death penalty in Saudi (and lets not even get started on the US), and may see their justice system to be stacked against the defendant - should our MP's really be trying to interfere in such cases.

 

It smacks very much of Corbyn yet again being the mouthpiece for his Hezbollah chums where they see an injustice against Shia's ?

 

Yes if you remove the context of why Corbyn was bringing this up, you might end up thinking that.

[WearyRhino]

The M OJ contract aside, why is Corbyn getting so involved in what is essentially a local Saudi case involving a local Saudi citizen.

While many of us in the UK may diagree with the death penalty in Saudi (and lets not even get started on the US), and may see their justice system to be stacked against the defendant - should our MP's really be trying to interfere in such cases.

 

It smacks very much of Corbyn yet again being the mouthpiece for his Hezbollah chums where they see an injustice against Shia's ?

 

Corbyn is the "mouthpiece" of all those who believe that Saudi Arabia is a barbaric regime who the British government has cosied up to for far too long under pressure from their US puppet masters, a desire for global stabilisation in the oil market and a desire to sell an obscene amount of arms. 30+ years ago I used to work in procurement and logistics for the MOD, which included the purchase of handcuffs for the RAF Police. On one occasion the Birmingham based company that manufactured said handcuffs sent us the wrong catalogue - one with a Saudi agents address on it, containing lovely glossy photos of leg irons, manacles and other instruments of torture. Personally, I think anyone who does not use any potential influence they have to dissuade a child being brutally murdered by a medieval state has a severe moral deficit. If they refuse to use that influence purely on the basis of economics then they are complicit in the crime.

[GeordieSaint]

30+ years ago I used to work in procurement and logistics for the MOD, which included the purchase of handcuffs for the RAF Police.

 

That explains why MOD procurement is in such a mess!

[WearyRhino]

That explains why MOD procurement is in such a mess!

 

It was in a mess before I got there (honest), they'd just purchased a new, well second hand, computer system!

[Saint Toppy]

Corbyn is the "mouthpiece" of all those who believe that Saudi Arabia is a barbaric regime who the British government has cosied up to for far too long under pressure from their US puppet masters, a desire for global stabilisation in the oil market and a desire to sell an obscene amount of arms. 

Personally, I think anyone who does not use any potential influence they have to dissuade a child being brutally murdered by a medieval state has a severe moral deficit. If they refuse to use that influence purely on the basis of economics then they are complicit in the crime.

Can you point me in the direction of Corbyn's speech condemning his Hezbolla chums who have been fighting along side Assad in Syria and helping him murder his own people using banned chemical weapons ?

Care to remind us also how his pals in the Kremlin treat their 'political objectors', not exactly well known for their tolerance of free speech

 

Corbyn is every bit as selective in which 'barbaric regime' he condemns and which he supports.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Can you point me in the direction of Corbyn's speech condemning his Hezbolla chums who have been fighting along side Assad in Syria and helping him murder his own people using banned chemical weapons ?

Care to remind us also how his pals in the Kremlin treat their 'political objectors', not exactly well known for their tolerance of free speech

 

Corbyn is every bit as selective in which 'barbaric regime' he condemns and which he supports.

 

Do Hezbollah have a prison contract with the MoJ too?

[Bedford Roughyed]

Dave Cameron is now intervening in the case of the British guy facing lashings.  

 

But I'm sure that's because he's a Hezbollah fanboy...

 

(And not because of the Mail, C4, Corbyn, Gove, etc all giving him a kicking over Saudi)

[WearyRhino]

Can you point me in the direction of Corbyn's speech condemning his Hezbolla chums who have been fighting along side Assad in Syria and helping him murder his own people using banned chemical weapons ?

Care to remind us also how his pals in the Kremlin treat their 'political objectors', not exactly well known for their tolerance of free speech

 

Corbyn is every bit as selective in which 'barbaric regime' he condemns and which he supports.

 

Mr Corbyn told Channel 4 News he had used the word "friends" in a "collective way" at a meeting in parliament. "I'm saying that people I talk to, I use it in a collective way, saying our friends are prepared to talk.

"Does it mean I agree with Hamas and what it does? No. Does it mean I agree with Hezbollah and what they do? No. What it means is that I think to bring about a peace process, you have to talk to people with whom you may profoundly disagree.

[Futtocks]

It was in a mess before I got there (honest), they'd just purchased a new, well second hand, computer system!

[C H Calthrop]

The M OJ contract aside, why is Corbyn getting so involved in what is essentially a local Saudi case involving a local Saudi citizen.

While many of us in the UK may diagree with the death penalty in Saudi (and lets not even get started on the US), and may see their justice system to be stacked against the defendant - should our MP's really be trying to interfere in such cases.

 

It smacks very much of Corbyn yet again being the mouthpiece for his Hezbollah chums where they see an injustice against Shia's ?

You don't put the contract aside. Britain is providing training for their prison services to accomplish goals such as crucifixion of 17 years olds.

[JohnM]

On the wider issue of trading with and supplying regimes who do not share our standards of human rights, justice, freedom of thought word and deed etc. China? Russia? Quite a lot of Africa and South America. 

[Bedford Roughyed]

On the wider issue of trading with and supplying regimes who do not share our standards of human rights, justice, freedom of thought word and deed etc. China? Russia? Quite a lot of Africa and South America. 

 

As in this case it depends what you are trading.  In this case, it was our Ministry of Justice helping a regime with, lets say a slight human rights issue, lock people up.  We were not helping them decrease those human rights issues, we were helping them with software to track prisoners.  

 

And we don't have free trade to those countries you mention, there are lots of export restrictions.

[Saintslass]

I think it is unfortunate that in the politics of the world our country has to develop alliances and 'talk' to lots of different cultures and countries because that is the pragmatic thing to do and sometimes by doing so we give ourselves an opportunity to intervene on occasion, as in the case of the senior guy who was foolish enough to risk his life brewing alcohol in a country very well known for its obsessive and violent reaction to the consumption of alcohol.  Withdrawing our support for the prison project may have undermined that opportunity or it may have made no difference, but we would do no trade, we would make no inroads, we would be unable to ask favours in individual circumstances, if we did not take the pragmatic option and form alliances and 'talk' to some cultures and countries we find obnoxious.  That doesn't mean we approve of what they do or stand for; it means we have to find a way to get on in the world.  Sometimes there is a greater fight and it's not like everyone is in ignorance of punishments in Saudi Arabia.  Everyone goes there to make lots of money without paying tax and catch some rays but it comes at a cost and if people are willing to risk the consequences of not respecting that cost then there is only so much that can be done to help them.  Taking the pragmatic approach does at least give the UK a small window of opportunity to help them.

[tonyXIII]

I think it is unfortunate that in the politics of the world our country has to develop alliances and 'talk' to lots of different cultures and countries because that is the pragmatic thing to do and sometimes by doing so we give ourselves an opportunity to intervene on occasion, as in the case of the senior guy who was foolish enough to risk his life brewing alcohol in a country very well known for its obsessive and violent reaction to the consumption of alcohol.  Withdrawing our support for the prison project may have undermined that opportunity or it may have made no difference, but we would do no trade, we would make no inroads, we would be unable to ask favours in individual circumstances, if we did not take the pragmatic option and form alliances and 'talk' to some cultures and countries we find obnoxious.  That doesn't mean we approve of what they do or stand for; it means we have to find a way to get on in the world.  Sometimes there is a greater fight and it's not like everyone is in ignorance of punishments in Saudi Arabia.  Everyone goes there to make lots of money without paying tax and catch some rays but it comes at a cost and if people are willing to risk the consequences of not respecting that cost then there is only so much that can be done to help them.  Taking the pragmatic approach does at least give the UK a small window of opportunity to help them.

 

I've quietly admired some of your posts. You stick to your guns and argue your case in the face of some quite hostile opposition. This, however, beggars belief!

 

The pragmatic approach? Is this the one where we betray our beliefs and pawn our our principles so that we can wring our hands in despair when the next teenager is beheaded by a mediaeval mafia? They are as bad as ISIS. They fund ISIS! They funded Al Quaeda! Jesus wept! This is an appalling state!

 

Let's be honest! By "pragmatic" you mean "economic". We tolerate this murderous mob because they buy our war planes and other assorted military hardware. It is down to money. Nothing else. Just filthy lucre! So, let me ask, as I genuinely don't know, what is our balance of trade with Saudi Arabia? Do they buy more planes or do we buy more oil? How much is a beheaded teenager worth?

[Saintslass]

I've quietly admired some of your posts. You stick to your guns and argue your case in the face of some quite hostile opposition. This, however, beggars belief!

 

The pragmatic approach? Is this the one where we betray our beliefs and pawn our our principles so that we can wring our hands in despair when the next teenager is beheaded by a mediaeval mafia? They are as bad as ISIS. They fund ISIS! They funded Al Quaeda! Jesus wept! This is an appalling state!

 

Let's be honest! By "pragmatic" you mean "economic". We tolerate this murderous mob because they buy our war planes and other assorted military hardware. It is down to money. Nothing else. Just filthy lucre! So, let me ask, as I genuinely don't know, what is our balance of trade with Saudi Arabia? Do they buy more planes or do we buy more oil? How much is a beheaded teenager worth?

I will ignore your vitriol and instead pick up on your point about 'pragmatic' equating to 'economic'.  I wouldn't disagree.  The economic is important, but obviously not important enough for us to bid to run the prison project.

 

You will also note I used the word 'obnoxious' when describing certain cultures and countries, and I included Saudi Arabia just as I would include China (and who hasn't bought a product of China?) and indeed half the world's states. 

 

We could get very Corbyn about so many countries to the point where we would do no trade, would have no negotiating power (because we were so busy condemning everyone) and would have citizens alienated and possibly put at risk due to our inflamed rhetoric.  Hence political pragmatism has to come into play.

 

Saudi Arabia is different to ISIS in some ways and similar in others. I'm not actually sure the Sauds like ISIS.  I rather thought they funded the Taliban.  Anyway, technicalities aside, Saudi Arabia is a nation state that whether we like it or not we have to do business with, which is where pragmatism comes in, of the political variety I mean.  We know from experience that we gain more for our citizens by dealing with the House of Saud than by condemning it, whatever our politicians may privately think of the regime there.  There are very few leaders or countries that we refuse to do business with because if we chose that route we would do very little business at all; and I don't just mean economic business but alliances.  You never know when you need an ally.  Unless they cross a line that we draw in the sand, as Assad has done and as others before him did, then it is more useful to do business with them and earn the right to comment or intervene when we need to, however nauseous that may make us feel.

 

Everyone, without exception, knows what Saudi Arabia is like.  It isn't unique of course.  There are lots of countries with extreme ideologies which don't flinch at being brutal (and some, like Zimbabwe, we are alienated from although that came from Zimbabwe rather than us if memory serves).  We were once like that ourselves of course.  But if we were to indulge in moral rhetoric (however justified we may be) all we would do is create even more enemies and put our citizens at risk.  And of course we would also make trade harder to come by too, and trade is important, whether you or I like to acknowledge it or not.