Rugby History Thread

[Derwent]

There's a great site online which has an archive of over 3,000 RL games, costs £10 for a lifetime membership, well worth it.

[Padge]

Belle Vue are the same club as Broughton.

 

Which Lancashire league did the others play in and which seasons?

 

They tend to be Lancashire Seconds Teams (second division for Lancashire clubs only, Yorkshire had its equivalent)  and the timings vary but they joined the Northern Union between 1896/97 - 1914 when the war disrupted a lot of clubs. I would have to do a bit of digging for actual dates. Some folded completely and others returned to union.

 

Leigh Shamrocks joined the Northern Union in 1897, they refused though to pay broken time and hence tended not to attract the best players and they went from being a top union side to a poor Northern Union one. In a lesson for today they kept a tight reign on finance and continued to survive against the odds until 1914 when, due to the war, a lack of players caused them to fold.

 

Belle Vue were of course Broughton who you have listed.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Padge

[Padge]

Ulverston

Fleetwood

Barton

Leigh Shamrocks (different to Leigh)

Walkden

Werneth

Whitworth

Belle Vue Rangers

 

Ulverston joined the Norther Union in 1897 playing in the Lancashire seconds. Their first NU rules game was against Dalton (also missing from the list)  11th September 1897 winning 6-5. Their first Lancashire Seconds game was against Barrow, a 0-0 draw, in front of a crowd reported as being 2,000.

 

For the 1900/01 season Ulverston decided to be an amateur club competing in the North West junior league a route which was following other clubs in the area.

[marklaspalmas]

They tend to be Lancashire Seconds Teams (second division for Lancashire clubs only, Yorkshire had its equivalent)  and the timings vary but they joined the Northern Union between 1896/97 - 1914 when the war disrupted a lot of clubs. I would have to do a bit of digging for actual dates. Some folded completely and others returned to union.

 

Leigh Shamrocks joined the Northern Union in 1897, they refused though to pay broken time and hence tended not to attract the best players and they went from being a top union side to a poor Northern Union one. In a lesson for today they kept a tight reign on finance and continued to survive against the odds until 1914 when, due to the war, a lack of players caused them to fold.

 

Belle Vue were of course Broughton who you have listed.

 

Thank you Padge.

As you say the senior league structures were in a state of flux until around 1906 I would say.

Would you agree with these classifications of what constitued 'senior clubs' at this time?

It would exclude the Yorkshire and Lancashire Senior Competitions 2nd divisions.

1895/6 Championship 22 clubs

1896/7 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1897/8 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1898/9 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1899/00 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1900/1 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1901/2 Championship 14 clubs. Lancashire Senior Competition 13 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 14 clubs.

1903/3 First Division 18 clubs. Second Division 18 clubs

1903/4 First Division 18 clubs. Second Division 17 clubs

1904/5 First Division 18 clubs. Second Division 14 clubs

1905/6 (onwards) Championship 31 clubs

[Padge]

Thank you Padge.

As you say the senior league structures were in a state of flux until around 1906 I would say.

Would you agree with these classifications of what constitued 'senior clubs' at this time?

It would exclude the Yorkshire and Lancashire Senior Competitions 2nd divisions.

1895/6 Championship 22 clubs

1896/7 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1897/8 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1898/9 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1899/00 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1900/1 Lancashire Senior Competition 14 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 16 clubs.

1901/2 Championship 14 clubs. Lancashire Senior Competition 13 clubs. Yorkshire Senior Competition 14 clubs.

1902/3 First Division 18 clubs. Second Division 18 clubs

1903/4 First Division 18 clubs. Second Division 17 clubs

1904/5 First Division 18 clubs. Second Division 14 clubs

1905/6 (onwards) Championship 31 clubs

 

I'd agree with that for the senior competitions (corrected your typo in bold).

 

1905/06 was 31 but 1906/07 it was down to 26. It was in flux.

 

1905/06 ....31

1906/07/ ...26

1907/08 ....27 (Addition of Ebbw Vale)

1908/09 ....31 (helped by now having 5 Welsh clubs)

1909/10 ....28

1910/11 ....28

1911/12 ....27

1912/13 ....26

1913/14 ....25

1914/15 ....25

 

Then war interrupts until 1919/20.

[Colly]

fairfolly and jon m thanks for the info concerning Jimmy Jolley

 

We have a reasonable amount of info concerning appearances etc and the Leigh  management job. He was a Warrington born lad in the first place so he could well have gone back to Warrington at the end of his career,however he was born in 1874 and died in 1928 so i think that the Warrington player is not him. My mother in law was born in 1917 and did not remember him actually playing

 

To the best of our knowledge he left Runcorn for Leigh and finished there.

 

Thanks for the link to the film, absolutely brilliant, my wife is so excited to see her grandfather who died 28 years before she was born. He is the last Runcorn player out of the tunnel with the light hair and full fringe.

 

It is a pity his daughter, my 99 year old mother in law ,who is still alive could not appreciate the film due to the dreaded Alzheimer's.

 

I think he did play in that match where the painting was commissioned and yes although a tiny indistinct figure it is his head shape and hair cut. I did not know the painting existed ,  brilliant thanks. He was a real star at a very young age so it all fits in with the dates etc.

 

I know that when he made his test debut he had been a top player for a long time and his inclusion was of the old head half back having the opportunity to play test football at the end of his career. Almost one last hurrah. From what we can gather from the very limited information available He played county rugby regularly for many years and if test football had existed during his whole career he could have had many test caps. He was one of the players who in representative terms was very heavily penalised by the great  divide.

 

If you believe in genetics many of his offspring are incredibly talented sportsmen and women to international level.

 

The Westmoreland connection is again the the correct time slot but it is just a jersey that we could not identify and apparently someone way back had suggested Westmoreland. We have county championship winners medals made of gold from the correct dates so it all fits in .

 

Thanks for your time on this one .

 

So far as the museum goes I would go with it but some ancient aunties may well not!

Edited December 27, 2016 by Colly

[Padge]

 

 

It is a pity his daughter, my 99 year old mother in law ,who is still alive could not appreciate the film due to the dreaded Alzheimer's.

 

 

 

The older memories are often retained and reminiscence therapy is very common as an aid for Alzheimers sufferers to interact with people. I would certainly show her the video and talk her through it, you never know.

[LionelHurst]

Colly - what a wonderful post re Jim Jolley. Enjoy this - http://allgoldsrugby.com/about/history/ - as he scored in Cheltenham in The Great Match of the Edwardian Period. He is also mentioned in the original report of the game in the Gloucestershire Echo. I arranged for the Civic Society plaque to be placed at the venue with Baskerville's signature on too.Also I am in possession of photos of the game and training the day before. None of which are in the book All Blacks to All Golds. I arranged for a talk about the match to be included in the world famous Times Cheltenham Literature Festival - so many attended the start was delayed! Is the shirt you have the one worn by the NZ All Golds?

[marklaspalmas]

I'd agree with that for the senior competitions (corrected your typo in bold).

 

1905/06 was 31 but 1906/07 it was down to 26. It was in flux.

 

1905/06 ....31

1906/07/ ...26

1907/08 ....27 (Addition of Ebbw Vale)

1908/09 ....31 (helped by now having 5 Welsh clubs)

1909/10 ....28

1910/11 ....28

1911/12 ....27

1912/13 ....26

1913/14 ....25

1914/15 ....25

 

Then war interrupts until 1919/20.

 

Yes. Thanks Padge.

[LionelHurst]

I imagine many of you are in the FB Rugby League Historians group - incredible photos,stories,etc. Latest is footage from 1969 of Leeds v Perpignan at Headingley in European Final and December27 1952 a full report of France v Australia at Parc des Princes in Paris. 12 - 16 to Australia. Attendance 18+k.

[Bearman]

Coventry should have 2 entries.

The only link is they are from the same city.

(although I have a family link as my Mothers Cousin played full back for the original club)

[marklaspalmas]

Coventry should have 2 entries.

The only link is they are from the same city.

(although I have a family link as my Mothers Cousin played full back for the original club)

 

There are two entries for Coventry.

[marklaspalmas]

Sorry Bearman, I should've put the full list on.

 

120 Seasons:  BATLEY
120 Seasons:  BRADFORD
120 Seasons:  HALIFAX
120 Seasons:  HULL
120 Seasons:  LEEDS
120 Seasons:  OLDHAM
120 Seasons:  ST.HELENS
120 Seasons:  WAKEFIELD
120 Seasons:  WIGAN
119 Seasons:  HUDDERSFIELD
119 Seasons:  HUNSLET
116 Seasons:  WARRINGTON
115 Seasons:  LEIGH
115 Seasons:  ROCHDALE
115 Seasons:  WIDNES
115 Seasons:  SALFORD
115 Seasons:  SWINTON
114 Seasons:  YORK
114 Seasons:  DEWSBURY
113 Seasons:  KEIGHLEY
112 Seasons:  BARROW
111 Seasons:  HULL K.R.
98 Seasons:  BRAMLEY
97 Seasons:  FEATHERSTONE R
90 Seasons:  CASTLEFORD II
73 Seasons:  WORKINGTON
72 Seasons:  LIVERPOOL/HUYTON/ETC
70 Seasons:  WHITEHAVEN
67 Seasons:  DONCASTER
53 Seasons:  BROUGHTON
39 Seasons:  BLACKPOOL
38 Seasons:  LONDON
34 Seasons:  SHEFFIELD
21 Seasons:  ST.HELENS REC
20 Seasons:  RUNCORN
20 Seasons:  CHORLEY/BLACKPOOL
18 Seasons:  GATESHEAD/NEWCASTLE
17 Seasons:  CARLISLE II
15 Seasons:  LONDON SKOLARS
12 Seasons:  CELTIC/NORTH WALES
12 Seasons:  CATALAN
11 Seasons:  BRIGHOUSE
10 Seasons:  CASTLEFORD
9 Seasons:  MANSFIELD/NOTTINGHAM
8 Seasons:  MANNINGHAM
8 Seasons:  STOCKPORT
8 Seasons:  MORECAMBE
8 Seasons:  HOLBECK
8 Seasons:  SOUTH WALES II
7 Seasons:  LIVERSEDGE
7 Seasons:  MILLOM
5 Seasons:  TYLDESLEY
5 Seasons:  LEEDS PC
5 Seasons:  NORMANTON
5 Seasons:  EBBW VALE
5 Seasons:  TOULOUSE
5 Seasons:  OXFORD
5 Seasons:  HEMEL
5 Seasons:  GLOUCESTERSHIRE
4 Seasons:  HECKMONDWIKE
4 Seasons:  LANCASTER
4 Seasons:  MERTHYR
4 Seasons:  CARDIFF II
3 Seasons:  BIRKENHEAD
3 Seasons:  PONTEFRACT
3 Seasons:  COVENTRY
3 Seasons:  COVENTRY II
2 Seasons:  SOUTH SHIELDS
2 Seasons:  TREHERBERT
2 Seasons:  PONTYPRIDD
2 Seasons:  STREATHAM & MITCHUM
2 Seasons:  NEWCASTLE
2 Seasons:  KENT
2 Seasons:  PARIS
1 Season:  ALTRINGHAM
1 Season:  RADCLIFFE
1 Season:  GOOLE
1 Season:  SOWERBY BRIDGE
1 Season:  LIVERPOOL C.
1 Season:  ABERDARE
1 Season:  BARRY
1 Season:  MID-RHONDDA
1 Season:  CARLISLE CITY
1 Season:  ACTON &WILLESDEN
1 Season:  CARDIFF
1 Season:  SCARBOROUGH
1 Season:  SOUTH WALES
1 Season:  TORONTO

[bowes]

Belle Vue are the same club as Broughton.

Which Lancashire league did the others play in and which seasons?

It will have to wait til the New Years Eve or New Years Day but I can let you know this in full when I get home. I've got information for Yorkshire when I get home but one of the seasons is a little sketchy.

Lancashire had a second competition (and one off third competition) with a playoff for promotion to the senior competition. Yorkshire had two second competitions (west and east) with the winners playing off for the right to challenge the bottom team in the senior competition. After the second competitions were abolished there was a semi-pro Yorkshire Senior Competition from which teams could apply for promotion (ie Pontefract, Castleford and Featherstone Rovers). Lancashire semi-pro clubs outside the senior leagues played against reserve teams (Wigan Highfield started there). I have no information on these leagues

[bobbruce]

So out of the 22 original clubs only Batley,Bradford,Halifax,Hull,Leeds,Oldham,St Helens,Wakefield and Wigan have competed in every season. That's 9 teams with Brighouse,Broughton,Liversedge,Manningham,Runcorn,Stockport and Tydelsley no longer involved in the game. Leaving 6 teams Huddersfield,Hunslet,Warrington,Leigh,Rochdale and Widnes who I'm guessing have only missed seasons due to war years.

Edited December 28, 2016 by bobbruce

[Lobbygobbler]

fairfolly and jon m thanks for the info concerning Jimmy Jolley

We have a reasonable amount of info concerning appearances etc and the Leigh management job. He was a Warrington born lad in the first place so he could well have gone back to Warrington at the end of his career,however he was born in 1874 and died in 1928 so i think that the Warrington player is not him. My mother in law was born in 1917 and did not remember him actually playing

To the best of our knowledge he left Runcorn for Leigh and finished there.

Thanks for the link to the film, absolutely brilliant, my wife is so excited to see her grandfather who died 28 years before she was born. He is the last Runcorn player out of the tunnel with the light hair and full fringe.

It is a pity his daughter, my 99 year old mother in law ,who is still alive could not appreciate the film due to the dreaded Alzheimer's.

I think he did play in that match where the painting was commissioned and yes although a tiny indistinct figure it is his head shape and hair cut. I did not know the painting existed , brilliant thanks. He was a real star at a very young age so it all fits in with the dates etc.

I know that when he made his test debut he had been a top player for a long time and his inclusion was of the old head half back having the opportunity to play test football at the end of his career. Almost one last hurrah. From what we can gather from the very limited information available He played county rugby regularly for many years and if test football had existed during his whole career he could have had many test caps. He was one of the players who in representative terms was very heavily penalised by the great divide.

If you believe in genetics many of his offspring are incredibly talented sportsmen and women to international level.

The Westmoreland connection is again the the correct time slot but it is just a jersey that we could not identify and apparently someone way back had suggested Westmoreland. We have county championship winners medals made of gold from the correct dates so it all fits in .

Thanks for your time on this one .

So far as the museum goes I would go with it but some ancient aunties may well not!

Interestingly I saw a copy of "the Rugby Match" in the Hallway to the toilets in a pub in the Surrey Hills (Gomshall) yesterday. I'll bet most people passing it have no idea what it is and the history behind it.

I've also seen a copy of it in the Sun Tavern in Richmond (London).

This painting should ideally be in the RFL museum, as it is more relevant to the history of Rugby League, (as with any pre-1895 rugby item which connects in any way to players or clubs which joined the Northern Union) though I guess the RFU are more likely to look after it! Would love a copy myself.

The RFL should actively seek to acquire any historical rugby items prior to 1895 if it is relevant (i.e. an 1888 Lions tour shirt, England shirts worn by players whose clubs later joined the NU)

[mmp]

Interestingly I saw a copy of "the Rugby Match" in the Hallway to the toilets in a pub in the Surrey Hills (Gomshall) yesterday. I'll bet most people passing it have no idea what it is and the history behind it.

I've also seen a copy of it in the Sun Tavern in Richmond (London).

This painting should ideally be in the RFL museum, as it is more relevant to the history of Rugby League, (as with any pre-1895 rugby item which connects in any way to players or clubs which joined the Northern Union) though I guess the RFU are more likely to look after it! Would love a copy myself.

The RFL should actively seek to acquire any historical rugby items prior to 1895 if it is relevant (i.e. an 1888 Lions tour shirt, England shirts worn by players whose clubs later joined the NU)

 

 

I was invited to a function in the Presidents Suite of Twickenham earlier this year. It is am imposing picture.

[bobbruce]

I was invited to a function in the Presidents Suite of Twickenham earlier this year. It is am imposing picture.

Could you make out the "ghost" player.

[mmp]

 

Leigh Shamrocks (different to Leigh)

 

 

 

Researching Radcliffe (the side mentioned before) and then Radcliffe Rangers and Prestwich Church Institute I regularly stumbled on references to Leigh Shamrocks sometimes playing in the Manchester and District League.

[bowes]

So out of the 22 original clubs only Batley,Bradford,Halifax,Hull,Leeds,Oldham,St Helens,Wakefield and Wigan have competed in every season. That's 9 teams with Brighouse,Broughton,Liversedge,Manningham,Runcorn,Stockport and Tydelsley no longer involved in the game. Leaving 6 teams Huddersfield,Hunslet,Warrington,Leigh,Rochdale and Widnes who I'm guessing have only missed seasons due to war years.

Leigh missed an extra season after WW2 because they lost their ground and nearly folded. Both Bradford and Hunslet have folded midseason and then rebounded

[marklaspalmas]

Leigh missed an extra season after WW2 because they lost their ground and nearly folded. Both Bradford and Hunslet have folded midseason and then rebounded

 

Yes. Just for the purposes of the list I posted, Bradford, Hunslet and York's truncated seasons all count in their total.

[marklaspalmas]

I should add

 

If anyone would like the list in excel with each season noting which league each club was in from 1895 to 2017 then Im happy to share.

 

If you PM me your email, I'll send it.

[bowes]

As promised:

 

1897-98

 

Lancashire Second Competition

Barrow

Millom

Ulverston

Radcliffe

Lancaster

Barton

Birkenhead Wanderers

Walkden

Altrincham (called up from 3rd competition to replace Dukinfield)

Fleetwood

Crompton (withdrew midseason)

St Helens Recs (withdrew mid-season; this St Helens Recs is not the same club as the later one)

 

Lancashire Third Competition

Werneth

Leigh Shamrocks

Whitworth

Rochdale Rangers

Warrington St Mary's

Mossley (withdrew mid-season)

Boothstown (withdrew mid-season)

Blackley Rangers (failed to start the season)

Cheetham Hill (failed to start the season)

 

Morecambe defeated Barrow to retained their Senior Competition status

 

1898-99

 

Lancashire Second Competition

Millom

Barrow

Lancaster

Ulverston

Altrincham

Radcliffe

Birkenhead Wanderers

Fleetwood

Blackpool

Barton (withdrew mid-season)

Walkden (withdrew mid-season)

 

Millom defeated Morecambe to take their place in the senior competition

 

1899-1900

 

Lancashire Second Competition

Barrow

Werneth

Morecambe

Birkenhead Wanderers

Whitworth

Altrincham

Lancaster

Fleetwood

Radcliffe

Ulverston

Dalton

 

Barrow defeated Tyldesley to take their place in the senior competition

 

1900-01

Lancashire Second Competition

Morecambe

Birkenhead Wanderers

Lancaster

Altrincham

Radcliffe

Werneth

Whitworth

Tyldesley

Leigh Shamrocks

Fleetwood (withdrew mid-season)

 

Teams in bold were elected to the Lancashire Senior Competition. Werneth joined the Lancashire Combination (reserve league). Leigh Shamrocks joined the Central Lancashire League. Whitworth and Tyldesley folded

[bowes]

Unlike the Lancashire line ups these aren't final positions. Also I can't vouch for the accuracy of these to the same extent as the Lancashire ones as they're taken from many different sources (in particular the 1899-1900 season)

 

1898-99

Yorkshire Second Competition (East)

Featherstone

Goole

Hull Kingston Rovers

Kinsley

Normanton

Outwood Parish Church

Ripon

Rothwell

York

 

Yorkshire Second Competition (West)

Birstall

Bowling

Dewsbury

Eastmoor

Elland

Idle

Luddendenfoot

Morley

Todmorden

 

Hull Kingston Rovers were overall champions and defeated Heckmondwike to take their place in the senior competition

 

1899-1900

Yorkshire Second Competition (East)

Alverthorpe

Eastmoor

Featherstone

Goole

Kinsley

Normanton

Ossett

Outwood Parish Church

Pontefract

Rothwell

York

 

Yorkshire Second Competition (West)

Birstall

Dewsbury

Elland

Hebden Bridge

Heckmondwike

Idle

Kirkstall

Luddendenfoot

Shipley

Sowerby Bridge

Todmorden

Windhill

 

Normanton were overall champions but lost to Liversedge in the promotion/relegation match

 

 

1900-01

Yorkshire Second Competition (East)

Alverthorpe

Eastmoor

Featherstone

Goole

Kinsley

Kirkstall

Normanton

Ossett

Outwood Parish Church

Pontefract

York

York Melbourne

 

Yorkshire Second Competition (West)

Bingley

Dewsbury (started the season in the East division)

Hebden Bridge

Heckmondwike

Idle

Keighley

Otley

Sowerby Bridge

Shipley

Todmorden

Windhill

Birstall (withdrew midseason)

Luddendenfoot (withdrew midseason)

Elland (failed to start the season)

 

Teams in bold elected to the Yorkshire Senior Competition. I don't know the fate of all these clubs but a single division was formed which ended up named the Yorkshire Senior Competition that lasted for a while as a non-league semi-professional competition

[Number 16]

Came across this snippet from the Sydney Herald in 1964. Seemingly there was going to be a World Cup Down Under in 1965, which I guess was cancelled because of France's poor displays on tour as suggested in the article.

Anyone know any more?