Where Superleague gets it's players from

[Padge]

Golborne may have a WA3 postcode, but it's actually part of Wigan.

 

M3 & M27 are also Wigan (Borough)

[ELBOWSEYE]

But this is where the methodology used is flawed. If you wanted a discussion on state of the amateur game in each town that is one thing, but I think simply linking it to number of players doesn't work.

London as a region is bigger than Warrington, Wigan, Widnes and St Helens put together.

If we wanted to look at Wire's efforts on youth development, then we should look at the 15 players they utilised in SL last year from their own system. We then had a couple of others playing in SL (notably Riley and McCarthy) with Mike Cooper plodding around in the NRL and representing England.

Saints used 14 of their own.

Wigan c18 of their own

I'm comfortable with our approach to home-grown and bought in, it is in line with most other clubs.

Out of interest, where did you classify Sam Tomkins? Born in Milton Keynes, played in Chorley, before moving to St Pats. The family were Wire fans originally.

a few other born or brought up in Warrington, Mellor, Joel Tompkins,Matt cook and wasn't watkins in Warrington,and Saville was brought up if not born in Warrington. .

[Barnaby Reddin]

 

Taking the research further it can be argued there are now 15 professional RL clubs in England. It’s not quite as easy to find the information, and there seems to be a few gaps in squads but across London, Bradford, Sheffield and Leigh another 68 professional RL players can be added in to the following effect  

 

Wigan 32

Leeds 19

Hull 16

Castleford 13

Saints 13

Pontefract/Fev 11

Huddersfield 11

Wakefield 11

Bradford 11

London 10

Salford/Manchester 9

Halifax 8

Warrington 6

Oldham 4

West Cumbria 3

Dewsbury 3

Barrow 3

 

London pretty good as they are in the top ten (what might have been eh?)

 

 

 

London would be on 13, (5 in SL, 8 in our own Championship squad) elevating them to joint 4th on that list. Problem is, will they be able to maintain this development without a SL club at the top of the Pyramid and with a governing body that doesn't seem too bothered by anything other than organic expansion?

[Southampton Leyther]

Could have at least put Wigan/Leigh in the OP if you are going to credit them with all the Leigh born players such as Dom Manfredi and Scott Moore etc. If you lump all the Leythers in with the Wigan players then you could at least acknowledge it in the list instead of missing them off completely.

 

Also you state that including the Championship FT clubs takes the Wigan (and Leigh!) total from 27 to 32 but there are far more than 5 players from Leigh and Wigan in the Leigh side alone plus any from Sheffield, Bradford and London. There are 10 Leigh and Wigan players in the Leigh squad who will play regular plus a couple of younger lads on the fringes but still part of the 1st team squad. Brierley is from Westhoughton too so Leigh is really his 'local' club so could arguably be added to the list.

 

Some of your figures seem way off to be honest.

[The Parksider]

Could have at least put Wigan/Leigh in the OP if you are going to credit them with all the Leigh born players such as Dom Manfredi and Scott Moore etc. If you lump all the Leythers in with the Wigan players then you could at least acknowledge it in the list instead of missing them off completely.

 

Some of your figures seem way off to be honest.

 

"To be honest" I just missed adding in Leigh, they are in there now. As for "way off" you haven't a clue because you can't be bothered doing your own figures. Anyway they are in there now.....

 

Wigan 32

Leeds 19

Hull 16

Castleford 13

Saints 13

Pontefract/Fev 11

Huddersfield 11

Wakefield 11

Bradford 11

London 10

Salford/Manchester 9

Halifax 8

Warrington 6

Leigh 5

Oldham 4

West Cumbria 3

Dewsbury 3

Barrow 3

[The Parksider]

But this is where the methodology used is flawed. 

 

I haven't bothered to answer any posts where the poster critcises the figures but can't be bothered to do his own, especially the posts where the poster wishes to moan his club's figure is somehow "way too low".

 

Anyway here's the fully amended figures for one eyed Leigh and Warrington fans

 

Leigh 85

Warrington 79

 

Wire have been way behind other clubs for years, even early seventies they were a bit too dependant on Saints and Wigan to supply players, and their run of success during that time was based on the cheque book and the purchase of some great Welsh talent.

 

The cheque book has brought success in recent years BUT the young players coming through now seems to see a welcome change, but on a fair comparison you cannot change the "methodology" for Wire to get it to 15 without putting your other eye back in and doing that for Wigan, Saints. Leeds as well when you will STILL currently be way behind them.

 

For the one-eyed Leigh fans we've heard it all before. So many amatuur clubs are somehow "In Leigh". I'll leave Padge to put that right. It's a small town only been in SL once, has a couple of great amateur clubs and they do what they do. A good run in SL would probably help turn that round.

[Dave T]

I haven't bothered to answer any posts where the poster critcises the figures but can't be bothered to do his own, especially the posts where the poster wishes to moan his club's figure is somehow "way too low".

Anyway here's the fully amended figures for one eyed Leigh and Warrington fans

Leigh 85

Warrington 79

Wire have been way behind other clubs for years, even early seventies they were a bit too dependant on Saints and Wigan to supply players, and their run of success during that time was based on the cheque book and the purchase of some great Welsh talent.

The cheque book has brought success in recent years BUT the young players coming through now seems to see a welcome change, but on a fair comparison you cannot change the "methodology" for Wire to get it to 15 without putting your other eye back in and doing that for Wigan, Saints. Leeds as well when you will STILL currently be way behind them.

For the one-eyed Leigh fans we've heard it all before. So many amatuur clubs are somehow "In Leigh". I'll leave Padge to put that right. It's a small town only been in SL once, has a couple of great amateur clubs and they do what they do. A good run in SL would probably help turn that round.

ah, so now its clear, as people have claimed, just looking for an argumnt rather than a discussion, going into name calling mode, despite claimng youre above it.

You'll stll play the victim no doubt and everyone else will be at fault.

Bye.

[yanto]

 

 

Wire have been way behind other clubs for years, even early seventies they were a bit too dependant on Saints and Wigan to supply players, and their run of success during that time was based on the cheque book and the purchase of some great Welsh talent.

 

The cheque book has brought success in recent years BUT the young players coming through now seems to see a welcome change, but on a fair comparison you cannot change the "methodology" for Wire to get it to 15 without putting your other eye back in and doing that for Wigan, Saints. Leeds as well when you will STILL currently be way behind them.

 

 

Be careful about going back to the 70s Parky...thats opening up a new discussion because I can remember 15 of the 17 West Cumbrian born and bred players going to Headingley and puting 30 points on you guys ..as well as competing with all the other top clubs of the day.

Team who won that day (from memory)with Ian Wright scoring a hat trick was 1.Paul Charlton (Kells) 2,David Collister (Red Rose) 3,John Risman (Carlisle RU) 4,Ian Wright (Cockrmouth RU) 5 Ian Mcqurcodale (Oldham) 6.Derek McMillan (Kells) 7.Boxer Walker (Kells) 8.Harry Beverly (Dewsbury) 9,Alan Banks (Egremont) 10.Eddie Bowman (Kells)11.Les Gorley (Red Rose) 12.Peter Gorley (Red Rose) 13.Billy Pattinson (Cockermouth) 14,Ian Hartley (Egremont) 15.Ian Thompson (Red Rose)

 

Not just a one off either as four Lancashire Cup finals proved, with the last final in 1979 putting a load of local kids up against a star studded Widnes team who struggled to win 11-0.

Town team and amatuer/ex pro club club......1,Charlton (Kells) 2,Mcquorcodale (Oldham) 3.Maughan (Red Rose)4.Thompson (Red Rose) 5.Beck (Clifton) 6.Rudd (Wath Brow) 7 Walker (Kells) 8 Wallbanks(Clifton) 9 Banks (Egremomt) 10.Beverley (Dewsbury) 11.Lewis (Moresby) 12.Pattinson (Cockermouth) 13.Dobie (Red Rose) 14.Roper(Moresby) 15.Varty (Red Rose)

 

Even in the early 80's not many teams with at least 80% local produced players could go to top clubs lke Hull KR and Hull FC and pick up winning pay.

Back then Workington must have had the most "locallly developed" players of any club around as well as having a championship winning Lancashire League (A team competition) side.

 

What happened to this conveyor belt of talent ??

The club went down the route of clubs like LEEDS and tried buying success and forgot about developing their own talent which then began to be snapped up by the top clubs in Lancashire.

Their one season in SL had very little home grown players.

[Southampton Leyther]

"To be honest" I just missed adding in Leigh, they are in there now. As for "way off" you haven't a clue because you can't be bothered doing your own figures. Anyway they are in there now.....

 

So you compiled a list of Super League players but 'forgot' to add in any and all players from Leigh? Hmm, almost as if your list isn't as concrete or well researched as you made out if you missed out an entire town in the heartlands of Rugby League.

 

Parky I am not going to go through all the players in SL to check your workings but why should we take your figures as Gospel when then one part of your post I have some actual knowledge about (the number of Leigh players) was completely wrong, and still is.

 

And if, as you just stated, your OP missed out all Leigh players where did you allocate the likes of Dom Manfredi and Scott Moore to? Or did you just not count them in your list?

 

You have just come up with a list of numbers and when picked up on glaring inaccuracies tell people to go and make their own list. Surely the onus is on you to put some sort of evidence behind your 'facts'.

[king street tiger]

Like how people are really happy with how many juniors coming through in SL but the truth is in few years time SL will be in big trouble. I watch a lot of junior rugby on a regular basis junior set ups from the ages 14-18 are on there backsides because the scholiship system the division 1 teams in Yorkshire a really struggling to get games played because lads are of playing scholiship rugby and the others are getting fed and packing in rugby all together and that bad and not only that scholiship players the future of SL are only playing 8 games a year which is not enough.

[Derwent]

I've been told a few times by people involved in junior RL that the scholarship and academy systems are actually very detrimental to junior development in terms of playing numbers. Instead of enhancing the game they are actively killing junior RL off in some areas, which is not in anyone's best interests.

[dkw]

ah, so now its clear, as people have claimed, just looking for an argumnt rather than a discussion, going into name calling mode, despite claimng youre above it.

You'll stll play the victim no doubt and everyone else will be at fault.

Bye.

You sound surprised? You shouldn't be, its his thing.

[dkw]

I've been told a few times by people involved in junior RL that the scholarship and academy systems are actually very detrimental to junior development in terms of playing numbers. Instead of enhancing the game they are actively killing junior RL off in some areas, which is not in anyone's best interests.

I suppose that's one small benefit for west Cumbrian amateurs, not as many young uns being cherry picked. It seems at times some pro teams take young players en masse, a sort of scattergun approach. Because they can.

[longboard]

I've been told a few times by people involved in junior RL that the scholarship and academy systems are actually very detrimental to junior development in terms of playing numbers. Instead of enhancing the game they are actively killing junior RL off in some areas, which is not in anyone's best interests.

 

Sounds worrying. In what areas has junior RL been killed off by the scholarship and academy systems?

It's hard enough for team sports clubs to get young people to participate long term these days without any systemic faults adding to the clubs' challenges.

[The Parksider]

Sounds worrying. In what areas has junior RL been killed off by the scholarship and academy systems?

 

I think this is the development system professional clubs use in which they look at the junior clubs players and start offering them scholarships and academy places such that they stop their participation with the junior club itself.

 

So a club may have 20 lads in a team going through the age ranges then at 15 a couple are lost to scholarship and academy probably at the same time as participation drops anyway in junior Football/Rugby when lads find other "pleasures" in life, and a few more leave.

 

Then although you have a dozen lads left wanting to play you cant run a team on that so a dozen other lads are lost to the game, and hey presto 20 less ARL juniors at a stroke.

 

This argument is totally one sided though, the professional game has to source it's players at a time that is right for them and the player, and that means offering the best juniors a pathway to professionalism at 14 or 15 or 16 before these top lads may turn to other things.

 

Or before their mates turn to the birds and booze and pack in for that reason leaving more enthusiastic lads no team to continue playing in.

 

What kills most amateur junior football/rugby the most is lads just walking away. At our local club a few lads have left to go to pro-soccer clubs, far more have left because they have outgrown the game.

 

If lads were not signed on by the pro clubs early teams would fold anyway, and I think at the end of the day the massive flaw in the argument the pro game kills the junior game is two fold:-

 

1. If the pro game left scouting players until they were 18 most of them would be gone anyway

2. If the pro game didn't do what's best for the pro game the amateur game would decline anyway

 

Plus it's a free country. 15 YO kids signing for pro clubs is their and their parents choice.

[The Parksider]

I suppose that's one small benefit for west Cumbrian amateurs, not as many young uns being cherry picked. It seems at times some pro teams take young players en masse, a sort of scattergun approach. Because they can.

 

Don't tell me you would not welcome a Marwan Koukash or a Ken Davey moving into a new stadium provided for West Cumbria by the local councils and going for Superleague, followed by an upsurge in interest in watching organising and playing the game amongst the local kids and their families.

 

The pro clubs don't bother much scouting West Cumbria Junior ARL probably because it consists of few clubs playing few games out of doubled up age ranges in which there's no U11 no U13 and no U15.

 

This evil and wicked Superleague moved into Bridgend about 10 years ago, take a look at the number of junior clubs and teams that spawned that are still erroniously listed on the Wales RL website because Wales RL cannot bring themselves to scrub them off now Celtic are gone.

 

Lordy if you HAD a Superleague club raiding your junior ARL it would be fantastic. Look at how evil Wigan decimate the junior game there? Look at how Leeds are ruining junior ARL in Leeds??

 

And whilst we are at it wasn't it Superleagues Dennis Betts and Mick Cassidy who ran the summer camps at Whitehaven? Don't ex-Wigan juniors bolster the senior team there?

[The Parksider]

Like how people are really happy with how many juniors coming through in SL but the truth is in few years time SL will be in big trouble. I watch a lot of junior rugby on a regular basis junior set ups from the ages 14-18 are on there backsides because the scholiship system 

 

Superleague will be in big trouble if it lays off signing anyone until they are 18.

 

The reality is lads jack junior rugby and football in in droves after the age of 14.

 

There are plenty of junior teams who have never had a player signed up by a professional club yet still go through the natural process of losing players from 14 on until the team folds.

 

If my lad was the next Stevie Ward I'd be devastated if his team folded and he couldn't play because his mates had discovered birds and booze.

[king street tiger]

Superleague will be in big trouble if it lays off signing anyone until they are 18.

 

The reality is lads jack junior rugby and football in in droves after the age of 14.

 

There are plenty of junior teams who have never had a player signed up by a professional club yet still go through the natural process of losing players from 14 on until the team folds.

 

If my lad was the next Stevie Ward I'd be devastated if his team folded and he couldn't play because his mates had discovered birds and booze.

I do agree I only put 18 because sometimes this does happen my nephew is at Cas he been around the club since 14.

[dkw]

Don't tell me you would not welcome a Marwan Koukash or a Ken Davey moving into a new stadium provided for West Cumbria by the local councils and going for Superleague, followed by an upsurge in interest in watching organising and playing the game amongst the local kids and their families.

The pro clubs don't bother much scouting West Cumbria Junior ARL probably because it consists of few clubs playing few games out of doubled up age ranges in which there's no U11 no U13 and no U15.

This evil and wicked Superleague moved into Bridgend about 10 years ago, take a look at the number of junior clubs and teams that spawned that are still erroniously listed on the Wales RL website because Wales RL cannot bring themselves to scrub them off now Celtic are gone.

Lordy if you HAD a Superleague club raiding your junior ARL it would be fantastic. Look at how evil Wigan decimate the junior game there? Look at how Leeds are ruining junior ARL in Leeds??

And whilst we are at it wasn't it Superleagues Dennis Betts and Mick Cassidy who ran the summer camps at Whitehaven? Don't ex-Wigan juniors bolster the senior team there?

Where did I mention super league? Your pathetic agendas mean you are reading things into every post, its embarrassing.

[The Parksider]

I've had a look at Barrow as best I can.....

 

1976 they were 25th.in the old NRL Their first XV contained 12 local players.

 

1996 they were 25th. out of the traditional northern clubs again only 5 local players

 

2016 they are 27th. out of the trad northern clubs with only about 3 local players

 

In a way I felt this may be because the influx of the best part of 100 overseas professionals nowadays maybe puts standards up so the locals may not be up to the higher standard?

 

But on the other hand a look at Barrow ARL in the early 1970's showed that at open age they had 13 clubs going, but more importantly they had a full youth league playing including Walney Central, Holker Pioneers, Dalton, Askam, Millom, Ulverston, and Barrow Island.

 

Who knows exactly but local Barrow RL doesn't seem to provide the club the support it used to.

 

On Workington and Whitehaven, someone pulled me up the other day and said that the real strength of RL is in Whitehaven more than Workington. The JPS listings of the top 15 for each club 1976 shows that out of the 30 players there were loads more Whitehaven than Workington lads.

 

A lot of lads were from the various villages west "Cumberland" wide. It may be in those days the schools played more RL???

 

There was a youth league noted in 1973 but it was only Wath Brow, Hensingham and Cockermouth with Whitehaven Colts having pulled out. Barrow, Whitehaven and Workington do not appear in the 1980 NRL Colts league table.

 

It may be many years of falling numbers and an inability to bridge that gap between playing as a kid and taking up with a semi pro club is the problem - the push to get the Cumbria academy going being the possible solution.......

[TBC]

Purely for interest, here’s a look at which junior RL areas super league clubs currently have sourced their professionals. As per Brian Mac’s comments this is the top 21 players in each SL squad (his core “first team squad”) Plenty of good player profiles about to work this out to be quite a good picture. Of course a few players have travelled a bit when in their formative years, but for the most of them leaving their home towns has come about when they signed pro. 231 players…..

 

Wigan 27

Leeds 17

Hull 15

Castleford 12

Saints 11

Fartown 11

Pontefract/Fev 8

Wakefield 7

Warington 6

Bradford 6

Halifax 5

Widnes 4

Oldham 4

West Cumbria 3

Salford/Manchester 3

Dewsbury 3

Barrow 3

 

Of course SL need to find the best players it can from anywhere it can so clubs will buy in overseas stars (Oz, NZ, France, pacific islands) who make up 69 players or 30%. They also get the odd players from RU or from outside the north especially from the days of London and Wales presence in Superleague. This includes 17 players. 

 

Most of this not surprising, the areas in which most RL is played are generally Super league areas, it’s still very much a northern game by geography and personnel.

 

Huddersfield seem to be doing quite well after all these years of Davey’s money. I find the Castleford numbers impressive but the financial struggles mean they mostly get taken away. Pontefract with Featherstone produces a lot of good players and this is where Hetherington has moved in and you can see why. What price a Cas in a new ground with Powell starting to keep those lads in that area. It would be fabulous.

 

HKR are the most heavily reliant on imports, reflecting Hudgells struggles getting the best Hull lads or finding them elsewhere, Widnes too have a similar reliability as they struggle to revive junior ARL in the town. Castleford use a lot of imports but of course the players they produce locally tend to keep leaving as above.

 

The least reliant on imports are Wigan and Huddersfield.

Parky - After 20 years as Fartown charman you could at least spell his name right.

 

Also good to see along with Wigan we are the least reliant on imports.

[Futtocks]

A lot of lads were from the various villages west "Cumberland" wide. It may be in those days the schools played more RL???

Possibly the schools played more sport overall, and when those kids left school, a higher proportion than today went into manual labour which kept them fit.

[Derwent]

2016 they are 27th. out of the trad northern clubs with only about 3 local players

On Workington and Whitehaven, someone pulled me up the other day and said that the real strength of RL is in Whitehaven more than Workington. The JPS listings of the top 15 for each club 1976 shows that out of the 30 players there were loads more Whitehaven than Workington lads.

.

Your research on Barrow is, quite frankly, absolute nonsense. 3 local players in their current squad ? They have actually got 15 locals in their 2016 squad. No idea how you came up with 3.

Re Workington/Whitehaven if you are simply going by place of birth then of course there will be more Whitehaven born players because the West Cumberland Hospital is in Whitehaven which houses the main maternity ward for the area. Most of the people from Workington are "Whitehaven born" as a result, as are those from Maryport, Cockermouth, Egremont etc.

[shaun mc]

Split of the West Cumbrian Teams

 

Workington area

Seaton, Glasson, Maryport, Ellenborough, Aspatria, Broughton, Flimby, Great Clifton, Salterbeck

 

 

Whitehaven area

Kells, Egremont, Wath Brow, Hensingham, Lowca

 

In between

Distington (4.9 miles to Derwent Park, 5.8 miles to the Rec)

 

Have classed Millom as the Barrow area

 

Workington area has more clubs. The Whitehaven area has arguably the strongest 3 clubs i.e in the National Conference

[Dessie O'Hare]

Purely for interest, here’s a look at which junior RL areas super league clubs currently have sourced their professionals. As per Brian Mac’s comments this is the top 21 players in each SL squad (his core “first team squad”) Plenty of good player profiles about to work this out to be quite a good picture. Of course a few players have travelled a bit when in their formative years, but for the most of them leaving their home towns has come about when they signed pro. 231 players…..

 

 

Castleford 12

Pontefract/Fev 8

Wakefield 7

 

Your stats are really poor.

 

The RFL paid compensation to clubs for 28 current SL players from the BARLA district Castleford & Featherstone. appearances.

They also paid Wakefield & district clubs for 20 current SL players