Reserves Comp Shambles

[marklaspalmas]

http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_20536-lenagan-brands-reserve-set-up-a-shambles.html

 

 

I have to say I agree. Either it's DR for all or all SL clubs run a reserve team. And I know which I prefer. The current situation is rubbish and harmful for player development.

 

[TaxiEgg]

With so many issues damaging the fabric of the game from the bottom up is it not now time to question wether the RFL is fit for purpose . ?

[Dave T]

On the surface I agree, but articles like this frustrate me, it is basically a whinge. What is his solution?

 

There are 9 reserve games plus DR arrangements for Farrell to play in - and there is the option of short term loans.

 

There are plenty of games available for a player like him - what exactly is his solution?

[Saint Toppy]

Its the DR thats becoming a shambles. It works for some like Leeds because they were lucky enough to have a Championship club willing to be completely controlled by them. Many of the top Championship clubs with SL abitions like Leigh dont want anything to do with it, Several Championship clubs have walked away from it, as have some SL clubs. DR is an experiement thats been tried and for the most part failed. 

 

With the exception of Hetherington at Leeds there's a lot of support for a Reserves comp but whats stopping quite a few clubs from participating is the cost.

[The Future is League]

Even after 120 years of playing the game it appears we can't even get the basics right

[Dave T]

Its the DR thats becoming a shambles. It works for some like Leeds because they were lucky enough to have a Championship club willing to be completely controlled by them. Many of the top Championship clubs with SL abitions like Leigh dont want anything to do with it, Several Championship clubs have walked away from it, as have some SL clubs. DR is an experiement thats been tried and for the most part failed. 

 

With the exception of Hetherington at Leeds there's a lot of support for a Reserves comp but whats stopping quite a few clubs from participating is the cost.

An issue with DR (from a SL point of view - not even going into the issues it creates for Champ clubs and their fans) is that these arrangements are often just year by year, so you are not really building up proper relationships or having proper feeder networks. This cancels out many of the perceived benefits imho and simply becomes a field for some players to play on.

[roughyedspud]

Even after 120 years of playing the game it appears we can't even get the basics right

They had the basics rights for the best part of 110 years until they started faffing about with it..

For me all super league clubs should run under 16s,under 18's and under 21s (thats the reserve grade)

All championship teams should run at least 2 lower grade teams..ie under 17s ( to catch any super league under 16s that slip through the bet & under 21s

And league one teams should at least run a under 21s..

[Dave T]

They had the basics rights for the best part of 110 years until they started faffing about with it..

For me all super league clubs should run under 16s,under 18's and under 21s (thats the reserve grade)

All championship teams should run at least 2 lower grade teams..ie under 17s ( to catch and super league under 16s that slip through the bet & under 21s

And league one teams should at least run a under 21s..

But you say they had the basics right for 110 years and then propose something different than what they had for 110 years.

 

This is the issue, there is no agreed basic solution.

[yanto]

Back in the 70s and 80s,maybe even as late as the 90's there was not as much money in the game as there is now but every club (i think) ran an "A" team in the respective Lancashire or Yorkshire leagues.

 

This was used as a development side or a team to bring players back from injury or to give fringe players game time.

It was a tough league with a mix of fresh young kids stepping up from the amatuer game and learning their trade and experienced pro's playing along side them.

All contracted ...all paid.

The amatuer game was strong as BARLA took control.

The future looked good.

 

Now with the game apparently  in its best financial health its ever been, why are clubs (especially SL Clubs) struggling to put out reserve/junior grade sides ??

 

People say dont look back into the dark old days and "SKY have saved the game" but really have they when junior development is spread so thinly on the ground and top clubs cant afford to run reserves ?

 

As I stated in another thread Workington Town reached four Lancashire cup finals in the mid / late 70's competed with the best, ran a succesful "A" team and the club was stocked with 90% locally produced players.

This was done without massive TV money and on crowds of the 3-4,000 mark,

 

How come this is not happening today when player participation is / was at an all time high,crowds are at a high and the money coming into the game is the best in the codes history.

 

Why is it not working ??

 

Has the creation of full time clubs been at the sacrifice of juniors and the "elite" have spend the millions on players contracts instead of the future therefore weakening the game at the lower levels ?

[Saint Toppy]

For me all super league clubs should run under 16s,under 18's and under 21s (thats the reserve grade)

All championship teams should run at least 2 lower grade teams..ie under 17s ( to catch and super league under 16s that slip through the bet & under 21s

And league one teams should at least run a under 21s..

I pretty much agree with you. SL teams should all run an U16's and an U18's but with a provision to maybe play 1 or 2 overage players given that players develop at different rates. No harm in keeping a player back a year if they have maybe the technical skills but not the physical attributes to step up into the next age group. After this i'd then prefer then to just run an open age Reserves team.

 

To keep costs down Championship and L1 clubs clubs from the same geographical area could come together to run the age group leagues. Swinton & Rochdale say could agree that one will run an U16's and the other an U18's and then both will run a Reserves. Those Championship clubs with a bit more money like Leigh could run all 3 teams if they wish.

 

The whole system needs a good strategic plan pulling together, spearheaded by the RFL and then get all clubs to buy into it. Currently we have a shambolic scattergun approach where clubs just pick & choose what to do with the end result being a complete lottery as to player development standards.

The players need a clear pathway for their careers and the game needs a consistent approach. Only then can the RFL and the clubs really concentrate on the weaker areas of the junior game and on developing more players to a higher standard.

[ELBOWSEYE]

Just checked Warrington's reserve fixtures 14 in total, but no home games at the main ground all at Victoria Park, disappointing.

[Saint Toppy]

Keiron Cunninghams view on the Reserves;

 

Saints alongside Wigan, Hull FC and Warrington will join Keighley, Halifax, Sheffield, Dewsbury and Featherstone in playing fixtures.

And it's a move Keiron Cunningham is more than happy with.

"I'm really pleased the reserves are back for the new season," he said. "It takes away that black hole and stops us losing talent when players reach 19.

"We're in a situation where you can go out, recruit and nurture a player and then by the age of 19 if they aren't a superstar you have to let them go. That is a ridiculous situation.

"We can now look at kids until they are 21 or 22. Not everyone is a superstar by 19... you only have to look at the likes of Mike Bennett and even James Roby. We could have lost them under the current system.

"You spend a lot of time and finance getting a player through the system; it's hard work and to then say thank you very much, you're gone, at 19, is ridiculous."

He continued: "The move to bring back reserves was championed by Mike Rush. He got everything going and teams jumped on board. The game will be stronger for sure."

Keiron says that Saints' Reserves are likely to be top age players from the 19s Academy, first teamers who are not getting regular football and those returning from injury.

There could also be lower age players in the Academy who could make the step up.

"It's common sense," he added. "We will reap the rewards and I'm sure it won't take 12 months before the league does it as a whole.

"They will see it was successful and then take up the idea as their own."

Ian Talbot will be the head coach of the reserves, assisted by Paul Wellens and Tommy Martyn.

 

Like Warrington Saints will pay 14 reserves game, plus they've also arranged a pre-season friendly game against Swinton. Not announced yet but it appears all their home games will be at Langtree Park as none clash with any 1st team or U19's fixtures. 

[Dave T]

Back in the 70s and 80s,maybe even as late as the 90's there was not as much money in the game as there is now but every club (i think) ran an "A" team in the respective Lancashire or Yorkshire leagues.

 

This was used as a development side or a team to bring players back from injury or to give fringe players game time.

It was a tough league with a mix of fresh young kids stepping up from the amatuer game and learning their trade and experienced pro's playing along side them.

All contracted ...all paid.

The amatuer game was strong as BARLA took control.

The future looked good.

 

Now with the game apparently  in its best financial health its ever been, why are clubs (especially SL Clubs) struggling to put out reserve/junior grade sides ??

 

People say dont look back into the dark old days and "SKY have saved the game" but really have they when junior development is spread so thinly on the ground and top clubs cant afford to run reserves ?

 

As I stated in another thread Workington Town reached four Lancashire cup finals in the mid / late 70's competed with the best, ran a succesful "A" team and the club was stocked with 90% locally produced players.

This was done without massive TV money and on crowds of the 3-4,000 mark,

 

How come this is not happening today when player participation is / was at an all time high,crowds are at a high and the money coming into the game is the best in the codes history.

 

Why is it not working ??

 

Has the creation of full time clubs been at the sacrifice of juniors and the "elite" have spend the millions on players contracts instead of the future therefore weakening the game at the lower levels ?

What do you mean not working?

 

Times have moved on so that teams on low crowds reliant on blokes from their village just can't compete.

 

We have to move on. Not saying we are doing it right now, but what we did in the 70's and 80's isn't necessarily the right answer either.

[Dave T]

Just checked Warrington's reserve fixtures 14 in total, but no home games at the main ground all at Victoria Park, disappointing.

What's the issue with that? We don't play Academy and Reserve fixtures at the HJ, we play at Victoria Park. Just like Wigan play at their reserves stadium.

[GaryO]

Keiron Cunninghams view on the Reserves;

 

Saints alongside Wigan, Hull FC and Warrington will join Keighley, Halifax, Sheffield, Dewsbury and Featherstone in playing fixtures.

And it's a move Keiron Cunningham is more than happy with.

"I'm really pleased the reserves are back for the new season," he said. "It takes away that black hole and stops us losing talent when players reach 19.

"We're in a situation where you can go out, recruit and nurture a player and then by the age of 19 if they aren't a superstar you have to let them go. That is a ridiculous situation.

"We can now look at kids until they are 21 or 22. Not everyone is a superstar by 19... you only have to look at the likes of Mike Bennett and even James Roby. We could have lost them under the current system.

"You spend a lot of time and finance getting a player through the system; it's hard work and to then say thank you very much, you're gone, at 19, is ridiculous."

He continued: "The move to bring back reserves was championed by Mike Rush. He got everything going and teams jumped on board. The game will be stronger for sure."

Keiron says that Saints' Reserves are likely to be top age players from the 19s Academy, first teamers who are not getting regular football and those returning from injury.

There could also be lower age players in the Academy who could make the step up.

"It's common sense," he added. "We will reap the rewards and I'm sure it won't take 12 months before the league does it as a whole.

"They will see it was successful and then take up the idea as their own."

Ian Talbot will be the head coach of the reserves, assisted by Paul Wellens and Tommy Martyn.

 

Like Warrington Saints will pay 14 reserves game, plus they've also arranged a pre-season friendly game against Swinton. Not announced yet but it appears all their home games will be at Langtree Park as none clash with any 1st team or U19's fixtures.

This is exactly how it was always run, a great benefit for any club to have. Why the richest club in the comp, Leeds, and in particular Mien Führer Hetherington believes it better to dangle other clubs like puppets on string without standing by their own resource's is ridiculous.

[marklaspalmas]

On the surface I agree, but articles like this frustrate me, it is basically a whinge. What is his solution?

 

There are 9 reserve games plus DR arrangements for Farrell to play in - and there is the option of short term loans.

 

There are plenty of games available for a player like him - what exactly is his solution?

 

Seems pretty obvious to me. A reserve/U21 grade of all 12 SL clubs playing 22 fixtures. Please don't tell me the clubs can't afford it or the standard will be too low.

[yanto]

What do you mean not working?

 

Times have moved on so that teams on low crowds reliant on blokes from their village just can't compete.

 

We have to move on. Not saying we are doing it right now, but what we did in the 70's and 80's isn't necessarily the right answer either.

Well Dave is it working ??

Are we moving on going backwards or treading water ??

 

Serious we must be one of only a few professional team sports that do not have a reserve league to back up the first teams. 

 

Something is wrong with the system and as for the "Blokes from the village" remark where do you think the top clubs get their English players from ?? ... yep the village.

You know amatuer clubs ran by volunteers who develop the kids that SL then pick up and as in the current system, spit back out at 19 if they dont make the grade because they have no where to play them.

 

Times have moved on since the 70s / 80s but at least back then we catered for fringe players, late developers,recovering from injury players ,out of form players etc etc  by clubs running "A" teams.

 

If you cut of the roots the plant will eventually die.

 

Its a crazy situation were the the game has moved on so much yet is still behind the 70s / 80s in this aspect.

[Dave T]

Well Dave is it working ??

Are we moving on going backwards or treading water ??

 

I don't know what 'working' is - that's why I asked.

 

% of homegrown players in the top division could be a decent metric. I suspect we hold up pretty well on that front.

 

Serious we must be one of only a few professional team sports that do not have a reserve league to back up the first teams. 

 

Well we do have a reserve league of sorts, it is just capped at a certain age. And we also have reserves team now re-introduced. And we have DR - something I notice other sports use.

 

Something is wrong with the system and as for the "Blokes from the village" remark where do you think the top clubs get their English players from ?? ... yep the village.

So what is the issue then? You suggested this had changed.

 

You know amatuer clubs ran by volunteers who develop the kids that SL then pick up and as in the current system, spit back out at 19 if they dont make the grade because they have no where to play them.

I'm not going to tell coaches and chairmen that they have to pay to employ people who they don't believe will make it (even if they are wrong).

 

Times have moved on since the 70s / 80s but at least back then we catered for fringe players, late developers,recovering from injury players ,out of form players etc etc  by clubs running "A" teams.

I'm a fan of reserve leagues, I grew up watching Warrington's reserve team the Wizards, and got to see some big names playing - but I'm not going to tell chairmen to dip their hand in their pockets to pay for it.

 

Its a crazy situation were the the game has moved on so much yet is still behind the 70s / 80s in this aspect.

If it was genuinely such a no-brainer, from a cost v benefit point of view, this would not have been scrapped - we need to look at whether this is genuinely the best player development pathway - if it means that 3 or 4 players are kept within the game, then you need to review whether that is worth the cost.

[EastLondonMike]

Every SL team should carry reserve grade, U21's and U18's at the very least.

[Dave T]

Can anybody confirm what other major sports and leagues do?

 

NRL - 

RU Prem - 

FA Prem - 

Bundesliga - 

[Celt]

http://www.loverugbyleague.com/news_20536-lenagan-brands-reserve-set-up-a-shambles.html

 

 

I have to say I agree. Either it's DR for all or all SL clubs run a reserve team. And I know which I prefer. The current situation is rubbish and harmful for player development.

Sorry - but that is nonsense.  If some clubs for whatever reason cannot/won't run a reserve team, then why on earth should those who do want to do so, be stopped??  

 

If Wigan, Warrington, Saints etc want to run a second team for player development, rehab, fitness, or even marketing reasons, then it is their right to do so.  The fact that some clubs are financially incapable, unwilling to invest in the infrastructure, or have this slightly creepy relationship that hetherington has with the wee club down the road.... should not hold back the progressive clubs who are looking to develop to the size where sustaining 2 teams is a problem.

 

We are talking about professional sporting organisations here.  If they see fit to run a team for adult players outside their top side, why should they be stopped from doing so?

 

Lenaghan's issue is more with the number of games by the sound of it.  However, I am sure that with a big squad like Wigan have, they will relatively easily be able to organise a few friendlies with either other clubs' reserves (who they play already) or against Championship clubs looking to experiment with fringe players of their own etc etc.  This can be done with a view to expanding the numner of reserve league games from next season, or perhaps introducing a reserve team cup to allow a few extra matches for the more ambitious clubs.

 

the fact that players had no career path after 20 years old under the previous system was one of the biggest weaknesses in the sport I believe, and I am sure it diverts a lot of players off to union where career opportunities are already far more plentiful.  Posters on here have (incredibly) stated that if a player is not good enough at 20, he should go and play for a Championship club.  The Championship in RL, while I am sure it is 'professional' in attitude of the players and coaches, is certainly not professional in terms of a career.  Condemning players who do not make the cut at age 20 to training at nights and spending days on a roof of a building site, is appalling, and totally short sighted.

 

Players will develop far better training full time in the high performance gym at Wigan, or in the barn at warrington, receiving proper physio support, medical, and crucially rest periods, than they ever will spending the day in a warehouse before heading out to training at Oldham on a freezing night in February.

[Celt]

Can anybody confirm what other major sports and leagues do?

 

NRL - 

RU Prem - 

FA Prem - 

Bundesliga - 

NRL - National Youth comp at U20 (under threat - teams seem fed up with Warriors dominating it.  Very good level indeed).

        - Reserve grade is optional - some clubs run a team, others retain a smaller group of players (cost reasons mainly) and field them at a semi-pro feeder club.  (NSW Cup)

 

RU Prem - Reserve League (smaller number of games - similar to the RL idea)

                - U18 league competition also

 

FA Prem - Clubs have massive squads as you probably know.  Reserve League has recently been replaced by U21 League - 2 divisions of 12.

 

Bundesliga - Reserve teams in league pyramid - usually around division 4 or 5.  Playing against other club's first teams as part of the normal league system.

        - U19 Bundesliga.  3 Regional divisions due to the size of Germany.

 

Hope this helps.  FA Prem is a bit of an anomaly, as they no longer run a formal 'open age' competition for reserves, but the big clubs regularly play 'bounce games' against each other to keep their massive squads active. My club - Celtic often travel down to England to take part in these too.  

 

Super League has been far 'lighter' in terms of structures than all these competitions, so this reserve competition is a step in the right direction for me.

[tim2]

Can anybody confirm what other major sports and leagues do?

 

 

 

 

 

NRL - Use feeder teams or have their reserves in the equivalent of the Championship. Also have U19s.

 

FA Prem - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Development_League- changed recently to U21 / U18 structure, no reserve teams.

 

Spanish football - reserves play in tier 3 of the structure.

 

RFU - Run Academies, reserves and U18 but formal fixtures seem very thin (10 per year?) and are regionalised

[yanto]

Can anybody confirm what other major sports and leagues do?

 

NRL - 

RU Prem - 

FA Prem - 

Bundesliga - 

NRL -NSW Cup a mixture of reserve grade NRL clubs (Bulldogs,SeaEagles,Knights,Warriors,Panthers and Tigers) and affiliated clubs to their parent club (Cutters/Dragons,Mounties/Raiders,Jets/Sharks,Bears/Rabbitohs,Magpies/Eels,Roos/Roosters)

 

Rugby Union Premier - Under 18 Academy Competition.

 

FA Premier - Under 21 Premier League.

 

Bundesliga -Reserve teams in the official competition below 2nd tier (divison 3 and below  and are not allowed promotion to division 2)

[Dave T]

Thanks very much to the last three posters.

I couldnt seea ru 2nd team league in a quick search.