WCS latest Solly to the rescue.

[The Parksider]

Blake Solly has said that the £1,825,000 salary cap will be reconsidered given the WCS whitewash.

 

However clubs who may be prepared to up their spending should know the Australian salary cap is also going up. I can only think of one man who may happily take gross advantage of a raised cap who allegedly has already done that according to one Marc Green.

 

The WCS is coming to Salford.

 

Solly seems to think that this series is important and dismisses the scores by pointing to Queensland's dominance over New South Wales over a number of the last 10 series. The scores in the WCS series apparently don't matter, but they may in the long run.

 

For the long run Solly is looking at four games next time two over here and two in Australia.. Does that smack of reducing the comp over here and trying to sell the concept over there?

 

The bottom line is not the scores but the money and Solly has done well with Dacia's sponsorship and crowds still holding up in the hope of a shock somewhere along the line.

 

So be warned because Solly says that "The whole of the sport benefits from the WCS, we're going to concentrate on growing it"

 

I personally am not too happy with the mess Solly has made of P & R which most of us looked forward to. I fear that if he breaks open the salary cap to rescue the WCS we're going to have problems.

 

Given that he may be long gone to Sydney Rabbitohs by then it will be someone else's problem.

[cookey]

Parksider,you are not happy with anything,unless it happens to fit with your somewhat limited agenda.

[The Parksider]

Parksider,you are not happy with anything,unless it happens to fit with your somewhat limited agenda.

 

Here we go. It's not about me, it's about the WCS and the plans for it.

 

If your not capable of talking RL why come on an RL forum?.

 

The big news is they may up the cap to save the WCS series.

 

Got an opinion on that? or is your "agenda" baiting me?

[Saint Toppy]

I agree about increasing the SC but they need to be sensible about it given half the clubs can barely cope with the current level.

 

I'd like to see it go up to £2M for 2017 and then by another £100K each year for the following 5 years, so by 2022 we will have a cap of £2.5M This then gives the clubs time to work on improving their income streams so all the clubs can remain relatively competitive.

 

In addition to the cap increase I'd also like to see a 'home grown player' dispensation introduced. Any player who has come through a clubs junior set-up and is classed as home grown will get say a 20% dispensation so only 80% of their salary counts towards the total cap spend. This extra incentive still pushes clubs to continue investing in their youth while also allowing them to effectively spend above the total cap. It should also hopefully encourage more players to stay within our game and not go to the NRL because they can earn a decent salary here.

[Spidey]

I agree about increasing the SC but they need to be sensible about it given half the clubs can barely cope with the current level.

I'd like to see it go up to £2M for 2017 and then by another £100K each year for the following 5 years, so by 2022 we will have a cap of £2.5M This then gives the clubs time to work on improving their income streams so all the clubs can remain relatively competitive.

In addition to the cap increase I'd also like to see a 'home grown player' dispensation introduced. Any player who has come through a clubs junior set-up and is classed as home grown will get say a 20% dispensation so only 80% of their salary counts towards the total cap spend. This extra incentive still pushes clubs to continue investing in their youth while also allowing them to effectively spend above the total cap. It should also hopefully encourage more players to stay within our game and not go to the NRL because they can earn a decent salary here.

There are already dispensations in place for home grown players. Their value in the salary cap will be different to what they're actually paid

If your suggesting there needs to be more emphasis on that side of things I'd agree, but while there are Aussies and the like available who are better than our homegrown players clubs will continue down that route

[Kris]

OK reality check part 1

 

NRL = BIG LEAGUE WITH CASH

 

SL = LITTLE LEAGUE WITH A LOT LESS CASH

 

Economics!

 

Part 2

 

NRL has a soccer like profile in Australasia and has a bigger profile over the globe than SL does, even in our own back yard

 

Profile = cash

 

Part 3

 

We don't have as many players as they do to pick from of an elite quality

 

Therefore they can continue to develop and buy in talent, we should concentrate on developing our talent and widening the pool of players to pick from

 

Interestingly the NRL clubs averaged a loss, as we all know, and the cost of players is likely to be the reason behind that as salaries inflate to meet extra income, everything else gets squeezed. The NRL will continue to have a cap, even if it is slightly higher, but will generate much more income in future, its learned that lesson.

 

Three simple observations, which mean that unless we hitch our cart to the NRL horse we will get left too far behind to catch up. The ARL used GB tours to stay alive for decades even when it was a Sydney comp played in dusty little ovals

 

Now its our turn to use them and as we are supposed to be the same sport, I don't see why aligning our game to the NRL at this time wont produce more profile, cash and players in the short to medium term and with a stronger international game that can only benefit everyone

 

The WCS is an international event with all star players from everywhere RL is played at an elite level - look at the players on the pitch for all three matches

 

It trended on twitter, facebook and every other social media platform, it generated new sponsorship and airtime, the audiences were high on TV and at the grounds

 

No wonder the NRL is on board with it, we should be too, I personally don't care if they get a larger split because at this moment in our history its about momentum, pushing the sport back into the social consciousness across the UK and the northern hemisphere

 

The alternative is not even worth contemplating because there isn't one

 

It only matters if we keep losing year on year, and the profile drops. The England RL set up as is can win something in the next 4 years, its that good, and should now get better. There is a lack of depth of quality that salary caps and procrastination and P&R wont change. Not unless we all end up with 12\17 aussies on our team sheets every week, and even then its doubtful we would be any better than we are now week in week out

 

So lets just go with it, redevelop the game so it appeals to everyone and generates real income so we can develop those players of the future and stand equal again as a true rival league and not the feeder league we are in danger of becoming

 

And lets be brutally honest here, how do the likes of Wigan etc get better with what they have, by playing Wakefield three-four times a year or the Roosters and the Broncos and their ilk. Its important we stick with it and develop it

 

Because then we can shorten our season domestically and stop short changing those players that would attain true elite status if they weren't treated like cattle week in week out and had time to train and drill and physically develop

 

Its a brave and sound move, if we cannot develop here as a sport because of the traditional prejudices which work against us we can find another way - Super rugby in the southern hemisphere did just that

 

And whether you like it or not Parksider I bet the likes of Lenighan and Koucash and Hetherington will do what is best for their businesses and grow them and if this is the best way forward its where they will go

[steef]

I've thought for a while that the cap needs to be raised mainly as I feel that with the cap being so far bellow that of union and the nrl it gives clubs a hard time keeping their players if either organisation come calling for them. However as any cap increase will most likely be modest will it really help?

The flip side of players going to the NRL is that it genuinely seems to have improved the England team and I'd argue that the more players we have over there then the stronger the national team will be. I'd say that a world cup win (even a 4 nations win) would do more for the game than a WCS win so in some ways it would be good for more of our players to head over there so long as they are replaced with young british talent rather than ageing Australians.

Happy to see the WCS expand and the idea of 2 games here and 2 over there seems like a decent idea. They need to have a clear qualification criteria though no invitations. For SL It should be the top 4 and in the NRL the last 4 teams left in the finals. If SL teams are to ever catch up then benchmarking of our best against theirs is the only way we can gauge any improvement. Just because the concept is currently one sided doesn't mean we should ditch it, long term competition like this will help us keep players and will help us improve. Plenty of sports have international competitions with uncompetitive sides without worrying about it. Over half the sides in the champions league are little more than cannon fodder.

As for how an increase in the cap effects the whole game it's difficult to say. Certainly with the current structure it seems it would reduce the chance of promotion unless all the caps were increased proportionally. Given that we currently have 39 teams and maybe a 40th if the Canadians get on board could a structure of 4 divisions of 10 play each other 3 times giving 27 games (28 with magic) give us 4 very competitive divisions with fewer easy games and more intense ones. I'd have one up one down between them. I think under such a structure clubs would be in a position where they would be competitive, could be ambitious and where relegation would not be a complete disaster. Of course the salary cap for each division would need to be carefully judged.

Having said all that the current structure really needs a couple of seasons before judgment can be passed on it IMHO.

[The Parksider]

Three simple observations, which mean that unless we hitch our cart to the NRL horse we will get left too far behind to catch up. The ARL used GB tours to stay alive for decades even when it was a Sydney comp played in dusty little ovals

 

Now its our turn to use them and as we are supposed to be the same sport, I don't see why aligning our game to the NRL at this time wont produce more profile, cash and players in the short to medium term and with a stronger international game that can only benefit everyone

 

The WCS is an international event with all star players from everywhere RL is played at an elite level - look at the players on the pitch for all three matches

 

It trended on twitter, facebook and every other social media platform, it generated new sponsorship and airtime, the audiences were high on TV and at the grounds

 

No wonder the NRL is on board with it, we should be too, I personally don't care if they get a larger split because at this moment in our history its about momentum, pushing the sport back into the social consciousness across the UK and the northern hemisphere

 

The alternative is not even worth contemplating because there isn't one

 

It only matters if we keep losing year on year, and the profile drops. The England RL set up as is can win something in the next 4 years, its that good, and should now get better. There is a lack of depth of quality that salary caps and procrastination and P&R wont change. Not unless we all end up with 12\17 aussies on our team sheets every week, and even then its doubtful we would be any better than we are now week in week out

 

So lets just go with it, redevelop the game so it appeals to everyone and generates real income so we can develop those players of the future and stand equal again as a true rival league and not the feeder league we are in danger of becoming

 

And lets be brutally honest here, how do the likes of Wigan etc get better with what they have, by playing Wakefield three-four times a year or the Roosters and the Broncos and their ilk. Its important we stick with it and develop it

 

Because then we can shorten our season domestically and stop short changing those players that would attain true elite status if they weren't treated like cattle week in week out and had time to train and drill and physically develop

 

Its a brave and sound move, if we cannot develop here as a sport because of the traditional prejudices which work against us we can find another way - Super rugby in the southern hemisphere did just that

 

And whether you like it or not Parksider I bet the likes of Lenighan and Koucash and Hetherington will do what is best for their businesses and grow them and if this is the best way forward its where they will go

 

 

What's not to like? A strong and interesting defence of the WCS.

 

Interesting point as regards hitching up to the NRL we can see that with how the clubs recruit their spare players, this WCS series adds to that and as I said...

 

The bottom line is not the scores but the money and Solly has done well with Dacia's sponsorship and crowds still holding up

 

So one can't criticise this weekend, nor did I do so.....

 

But even you Kris have conceded the point that  "It (only) matters if we keep losing year on year, and the profile drops.

 

We've lost six out of six, five by heavy scores and crowds are down across the series. 

 

I don't disagree with you at all, I just point out to you that what you yourself fear for the future in an otherwise positive post is happening now!

[Bearman]

Solly also quotes that in addition to the 9 out of 10 Queensland wins they won the last game 52-6 and no one is calling for the concept to be abandoned .

He also says that he Australians think that NSW should just work harder.

So perhaps we should run with it for a while.

Unfortunately we do have a history of short termism.

[Gates1]

I simply dont understand how raising the cap would be a solution to these results. in fact it will have little bearing on the gulf between the NRL and has the potential to widen the international gap and jeapodise the Superleague comp (which I feel shows promise of been in the early stages of its most exciting and competative season yet).

Lets face it, despite the differance in cap we still have very few English players leaving superleague for the NRL (Graham, Burgess brothers, Joe Burgess, Mike Cooper and Greg Eden been the extent by my reckoning).

This list is dwarfed by the amount of NRL (or feeder team) players heading over here to play SL. In my opinion you can loosely group the imports into the following scenarios in terms of the journey to SL:

1

Players who never really made NRL regular status or couldnt sustain it (IE Justin Carney, Atela Vea, Masalla, Tumavavie).

2

NRL journeymen who made NRL sides regurlarly for a prolonged period without every really standing out (IE Grant Millington, Joel Moon, Travis Burns, Cuthbertson).

3

Standouts at the back end of their carear or following a carear stunting injury (IE Pritchard, Tonga, Richards, Asotasi)

4

Top players who move over here following an incident whilst still in their prime! (Carney, Monaghan)

We find players from either group may prosper some may also flop. So what will will raising the cap acheive? I doubt it will bring in top NRL players at their peak (has the marque rule?) - so the NRL will still retain its upper quartile players. It will simply mean we will see more of the 1st 3 groups appearing in SL squads and exisitng top SL players have a wage increase due to competition to sign them.

If we pay all the Leeds players 10% more and replacwe Ash Handley with Justin Carney and Lilley with Travis Burns would Leeds have won on Sunday?

Course not, they may have lost by a score less but thats about it. Handley and Lilley, may however, have missed out on the 1st team opportunities and the chance to develop last and this season have offered them, on the plus side though Leeds may find it easier to beat Catalan at the weekend and will certainly beat the poorer clubs by more (excluding freak results).

Is any of this good for development of the English/international game?

Wigan may have also used the money to hold onto Joe Burgess.

Is that what the development of the English/international needs?

Ultimately, what will an increased cap mean? An inflation of exisiting SL players wage by say 10%? Maybe each SL team bringing in an extra 2 players from groups 1-3 and half of the teams prevent an English player moving to the NRL.

....and the richer, better coached and resouced NRL teams will still beat our battle hardened teams next year in their 1st pre-season friendly...But at least we will have a disjointed superleague and a couple of international hammerings to look forward to.

[deluded pom?]

Best of luck to the guys with the job of promoting the two games played in Australia. They'll need it.

[Spidey]

Best of luck to the guys with the job of promoting the two games played in Australia. They'll need it.

One of them will have to be the WCC itself

[The Parksider]

Solly also quotes that in addition to the 9 out of 10 Queensland wins they won the last game 52-6 and no one is calling for the concept to be abandoned .

 

 

This is spin....

 

New South Wales have beaten Queensland regularly six times since 2010.

New South Wales were within six points in seven of the games they lost.

There is just no comparison to the WCS.

 

If we could win one of the three every year then we'd be OK people would come.

If we came close in another then we could even build crowds.

But losing by big scores every time risks crowds already dropping, dropping further. 

[The Parksider]

I simply dont understand how raising the cap would be a solution to these results.

 

In fact it will have little bearing on the gulf between the NRL and has the potential to jeapodise the Superleague comp (which I feel shows promise of been in the early stages of its most exciting and competitive season yet).

 

 

That hits the nail on the head.

 

The raising of the salary cap may only be taken advantage of by a few clubs.

 

If it's a big rise and three clubs say go and rob the other nine of their better players then you have three very strong clubs in Superleague and nine making up the numbers.

 

We have something like that now.

 

So I can only guess that the logic is get all the best players into a few top teams then we can give the Aussies a game in the WSC??

 

I'm guessing that's the logic BTW not suggesting they do it or it will be a good move??

[The Parksider]

Best of luck to the guys with the job of promoting the two games played in Australia. They'll need it.

 

2014 Sydney Roosters.v.Wigan attendance at the Allianze stadium Sydney  31,515

 

So they had no problem promoting that and Solly will know that......

[Darren Hill]

Instead of upping the SC, why not invest extra money into the grass roots. This where and realistically the best place to bring forward new talent which can be nurtured into top rugby league players.

 

Paying the Burgess brothers or whoever more money to play in England is a short term solution, if it is a solution. The RFL need to get back to basics and set out a clear plan for future talent to be brought through in suitable competitions.

 

The scrapping of reserve grades, under 16's, introduction of DR, etc. has been the downfall of the standard of rugby in this country, not the fact that someone can earn more money elsewhere (a factor in any sport/industry)

 

A major shake up is needed very quickly.

[Viking Warrior]

Blake Solly has said that the £1,825,000 salary cap will be reconsidered given the WCS whitewash.

 

However clubs who may be prepared to up their spending should know the Australian salary cap is also going up. I can only think of one man who may happily take gross advantage of a raised cap who allegedly has already done that according to one Marc Green.

 

The WCS is coming to Salford.

 

Solly seems to think that this series is important and dismisses the scores by pointing to Queensland's dominance over New South Wales over a number of the last 10 series. The scores in the WCS series apparently don't matter, but they may in the long run.

 

For the long run Solly is looking at four games next time two over here and two in Australia.. Does that smack of reducing the comp over here and trying to sell the concept over there?

 

The bottom line is not the scores but the money and Solly has done well with Dacia's sponsorship and crowds still holding up in the hope of a shock somewhere along the line.

 

So be warned because Solly says that "The whole of the sport benefits from the WCS, we're going to concentrate on growing it"

 

I personally am not too happy with the mess Solly has made of P & R which most of us looked forward to. I fear that if he breaks open the salary cap to rescue the WCS we're going to have problems.

 

Given that he may be long gone to Sydney Rabbitohs by then it will be someone else's problem.

 

 

 

surprised you haven't blamed widnes for this 

[Brigg Rover]

If you supported a lower division football team and they drew say Liverpool or Man U in the FA cup would you go and watch? I would guess it would be their biggest gate of the season. Would you go there expecting your team to win?

 

If you support Leicester City and they make it to the Champions League and draw Barcelona do you expect to win or do you go because you want to watch the best players in the world play?

 

You cannot compare the NRL to Super League just from an economics level, but its not to say that now and again we can't beat them, or in fact enjoy the games.

 

Last year we could easily have won 2 of the games, and lets be honest how Warrington weren't playing against 12 men was a joke. If that was the case then 2 wins from 4 games would have been fair enough.

 

This year Leeds are a shadow of the team that won the grand final and Saints are also low on numbers. Wigan was a disappointing showing. So in summary we have been done over twice in 6 games Souths last year and Brisbane this year.

[Adeybull]

That hits the nail on the head.

 

The raising of the salary cap may only be taken advantage of by a few clubs.

 

If it's a big rise and three clubs say go and rob the other nine of their better players then you have three very strong clubs in Superleague and nine making up the numbers.

 

We have something like that now.

 

So I can only guess that the logic is get all the best players into a few top teams then we can give the Aussies a game in the WSC??

 

I'm guessing that's the logic BTW not suggesting they do it or it will be a good move??

While I am still in these parts...

 

That is exactly how I see it, too.

 

I respectfully suggest that many people are missing the point?  That they are mistaking symptoms for causes?  IMO the issue is NOT that the salary cap is too low; the issue is that the is far too little money in the game.

 

There simply is not enough money in the game to facilitate all the SL clubs (I stress ALL) having a much higher salary cap.  A handful of clubs with wealthy owners, and I suspect Leeds if that normally-prudent club elected to join in, might go for it, if they thought thereby they could gain a competitive advantage over other clubs.  But how many?  Since I doubt that improving the quality a bit would lead to a major increase in external income?

 

Increase the salary cap to say £3m (which is where I suspect it really needs to be, minimum) and you'll get a an oligarchy of clubs dominating SL, with the rest abandoning any pretense of competing - they'll have been priced out of the elite competition.  Then maybe Solly's NEXT big idea would be to have a SuperDuper league of say six clubs, and a LetspretenditsSuper League of the remaining six plus the full time clubs from the Championship.  Then the big six (or whatever) decide this is boring, and they go and throw their lot in with the bigger RU clubs.  And don't bother looking to the LetspretenditsSuper League to pick up the torch for the game; they have lost all the best players to the SuperDuper clubs.  And in any WCS would get absolutely hammered.  If the NRL could even be bothered.

 

IMO We need at least another £20m a year into the game, from somewhere.  Any ideas?  Cos I sure as hell don't.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

surprised you haven't blamed widnes for this 

 

Or said that Bradford Bulls ought to be in the WCC because they used to be good.

[deluded pom?]

2014 Sydney Roosters.v.Wigan attendance at the Allianze stadium Sydney  31,515

 

So they had no problem promoting that and Solly will know that......

Wind forward a bit. Aussies won't go to what they think will be a walkover. I doubt they'd break the 20,000 barrier after the last two WCS.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

Instead of upping the SC, why not invest extra money into the grass roots. This where and realistically the best place to bring forward new talent which can be nurtured into top rugby league players.

 

Paying the Burgess brothers or whoever more money to play in England is a short term solution, if it is a solution. The RFL need to get back to basics and set out a clear plan for future talent to be brought through in suitable competitions.

 

The scrapping of reserve grades, under 16's, introduction of DR, etc. has been the downfall of the standard of rugby in this country, not the fact that someone can earn more money elsewhere (a factor in any sport/industry)

 

A major shake up is needed very quickly.

 

I don't think you're far off Darren. We get a fair few kids into clubs, maybe that needs to improve so we get more numbers. What definitely needs to improve is their development from the point they hit clubs at 15/16. having no reserves is scandalous to be honest. The leagues system in Australia really turns potential into talent. Im not sure ours does.

 

Increasing the salary cap wont bring better players over until the cap is higher than Oz and we have the money to fund bringing their better players over to increase the quality.

 

Essentially we need a shed load more money and it needs to be invested in all areas of the game, but mostly in that middle segment 15-20 years old. Our coaches and environments need to be better. We might have to bring more Aussie coaches over for that to happen. spend the money on that not on giving Ryan Hall a pay rise so he can get fatter and softer than he already is.

[Big Picture]

While I am still in these parts...

 

That is exactly how I see it, too.

 

I respectfully suggest that many people are missing the point?  That they are mistaking symptoms for causes?  IMO the issue is NOT that the salary cap is too low; the issue is that the is far too little money in the game.

 

There simply is not enough money in the game to facilitate all the SL clubs (I stress ALL) having a much higher salary cap.  A handful of clubs with wealthy owners, and I suspect Leeds if that normally-prudent club elected to join in, might go for it, if they thought thereby they could gain a competitive advantage over other clubs.  But how many?  Since I doubt that improving the quality a bit would lead to a major increase in external income?

 

Increase the salary cap to say £3m (which is where I suspect it really needs to be, minimum) and you'll get a an oligarchy of clubs dominating SL, with the rest abandoning any pretense of competing - they'll have been priced out of the elite competition.  Then maybe Solly's NEXT big idea would be to have a SuperDuper league of say six clubs, and a LetspretenditsSuper League of the remaining six plus the full time clubs from the Championship.  Then the big six (or whatever) decide this is boring, and they go and throw their lot in with the bigger RU clubs.  And don't bother looking to the LetspretenditsSuper League to pick up the torch for the game; they have lost all the best players to the SuperDuper clubs.  And in any WCS would get absolutely hammered.  If the NRL could even be bothered.

 

IMO We need at least another £20m a year into the game, from somewhere.  Any ideas?  Cos I sure as hell don't.

The blunt truth is that as long as British RL remains a low-profile M62-bound regional sport it can't be done, because big-money sponsors won't spend their marketing budget on such a sport.  To compete with the high-profile nationally-relevant sport which is Australian RL, British RL needs to grow into that same kind of sport.  I'm afraid that I don't know how that can be achieved though.

[DoubleD]

While I am still in these parts...

That is exactly how I see it, too.

I respectfully suggest that many people are missing the point? That they are mistaking symptoms for causes? IMO the issue is NOT that the salary cap is too low; the issue is that the is far too little money in the game.

There simply is not enough money in the game to facilitate all the SL clubs (I stress ALL) having a much higher salary cap. A handful of clubs with wealthy owners, and I suspect Leeds if that normally-prudent club elected to join in, might go for it, if they thought thereby they could gain a competitive advantage over other clubs. But how many? Since I doubt that improving the quality a bit would lead to a major increase in external income?

Increase the salary cap to say £3m (which is where I suspect it really needs to be, minimum) and you'll get a an oligarchy of clubs dominating SL, with the rest abandoning any pretense of competing - they'll have been priced out of the elite competition. Then maybe Solly's NEXT big idea would be to have a SuperDuper league of say six clubs, and a LetspretenditsSuper League of the remaining six plus the full time clubs from the Championship. Then the big six (or whatever) decide this is boring, and they go and throw their lot in with the bigger RU clubs. And don't bother looking to the LetspretenditsSuper League to pick up the torch for the game; they have lost all the best players to the SuperDuper clubs. And in any WCS would get absolutely hammered. If the NRL could even be bothered.

IMO We need at least another £20m a year into the game, from somewhere. Any ideas? Cos I sure as hell don't.

If not wealthy owners, then diversified businesses generating more commercial revenue, Sponsorship and tv deals

[The Parksider]

surprised you haven't blamed widnes for this 

 

Well I was at the Old Trafford game when Widnes won the WCC.

 

That your club hasn't done so recently may very well be the problem.