Brexit the positive thread

[Just Browny]

It's also not a court room where a surprise witness or piece of evidence is pulled from a hat thus meaning the good guys win.

 

It's (meant to be) consensual not adversarial.

 

The Tories have spent most of our time in the EU (and especially the last six years) absolutely making it adversial: there is no chance they will resort to consensual when we are on the way out.

 

Still, this is the positive thread so: isn't it exciting.

[Saintslass]

It's also not a court room where a surprise witness or piece of evidence is pulled from a hat thus meaning the good guys win.

 

It's (meant to be) consensual not adversarial.

Perhaps you need to tell that to Juncker and his cronies.  They've been making a real effort to sound adversarial since before the referendum took place.

 

As for the debate today, what many MPs want is the chance to veto the whole thing.  The push for a debate on minutae is just a smoke screen.  Either that or we have a lot of thick MPs as nobody in their right mind shows their hand ahead of negotiations.

[Saintslass]

Still, this is the positive thread so: isn't it exciting.

Yes, it is.  We may actually be starting to work towards leaving the EU.  That is exciting.

[Bedford Roughyed]

No marmite on the shelves.  I for one see this as a great positive!  Evil stuff.

[Saintslass]

No marmite on the shelves.  I for one see this as a great positive!  Evil stuff.

Agreed!

[Bob8]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/12/david-davis-attacks-brexit-blame-festival-as-he-warns-parliament/

David Davis defends democracy against remoaners.

[Bedford Roughyed]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/12/david-davis-attacks-brexit-blame-festival-as-he-warns-parliament/

David Davis defends democracy against remoaners.

 

 

But we voted so that parliament was sovereign?  I'm confused.

[Saintslass]

But we voted so that parliament was sovereign?  I'm confused.

We voted to regain sovereignty from the EU.  However, as you and others of a remain persuasion have been telling everyone lately, we are still in the EU.  Thus we have yet to regain sovereignty.

[Griff9of13]

It's impossible to regain something that was never lost in the first place.

[Saintslass]

It's impossible to regain something that was never lost in the first place.

I think you'll find it was. Hence The Great Repeal.

[Bob8]

I think you'll find it was. Hence The Great Repeal.

We were sovereign before, are now and will be.

[Griff9of13]

But we voted so that parliament was sovereign? I'm confused.

Some of today's papers don't seem too keen on the idea of parliamentary democracy and sovereignty all of a sudden leading their front pages with attacks on yesterday's debate on the terms of brexit. How dare they exercise their democratic rights?

[gingerjon]

We were sovereign before, are now and will be.

 

It is a very complicated position isn't it?

 

The British parliament was sovereign, is sovereign now and will, unless something very strange happens like we revert to only accepting votes via referendums, be sovereign in the future.

[Just Browny]

It does all show up some pretty big holes in our constitution (since this is the positive thread, let's concede that they are quite interesting holes).

First and foremost with our knowledge of the British constitution. We have next to no education on these topics in the UK unless you study Law or similar at university, so the idea of the executive, legislative and judicial branches is either alien or picked up in bits and pieces via Wikipedia (the latter in my case). This gives rise to the view - apparently among many Tory politicians too at the moment - that the Government can just do what it wants once it has been elected. In defence of MPs, they have had to lead the defence of the role of parliament almost unaided for many tears in the absence of any public interest.

Second, the random sprinkling of referenda in our history means Im not sure we have a precedent for a referendum in which the public voted against the status quo. So we have no idea what happens next. Actually, scratch that - we have a whole range of views upon which very few agree.

[JonM]

 This gives rise to the view - apparently among many Tory politicians too at the moment - that the Government can just do what it wants once it has been elected.

 

We have much more of an elected dictatorship than most other Western countries; there are fairly few checks and balances on the elected government compared with say the US or Canada.

[Saintslass]

We were sovereign before, are now and will be.

I think you'll find that the legislation due to be voted on next year suggests that our law is subject to EU law.  Thus we are not actually sovereign.

[Saintslass]

We have much more of an elected dictatorship than most other Western countries; there are fairly few checks and balances on the elected government compared with say the US or Canada.

I don't know how well you have studied American government but it is often completely gridlocked thanks to the number of checks and balances in the system.  I wouldn't want the American system at all.  I don't know anything about the Canadian system and so cannot comment.

[Bedford Roughyed]

I don't know how well you have studied American government but it is often completely gridlocked thanks to the number of checks and balances in the system.  I wouldn't want the American system at all.  I don't know anything about the Canadian system and so cannot comment.

 

 

Yup the American system requires cross party cooperation and a certain amount of being grown up (!).  Which over the last decade has become harder to find, to the point where you had a complete shut down of their civil service.  

[gingerjon]

Yup the American system requires cross party cooperation and a certain amount of being grown up (!).  Which over the last decade has become harder to find, to the point where you had a complete shut down of their civil service.  

 

Doesn't help when many of the elected members on one side firmly believe that the best government is no government.

[Billypop]

I think you'll find that the legislation due to be voted on next year suggests that our law is subject to EU law.  Thus we are not actually sovereign.

Which EU laws have passed though the UK parliament without the agreement/sovereign part oF UK parliament's agreement and become UK laws?

 

Answers on a postage stamp.

[Bob8]

I think you'll find that the legislation due to be voted on next year suggests that our law is subject to EU law.  Thus we are not actually sovereign.

I consider this nonsense, as Billypop points out.

 

I don't know how well you have studied American government but it is often completely gridlocked thanks to the number of checks and balances in the system.  I wouldn't want the American system at all.  I don't know anything about the Canadian system and so cannot comment.

I think this is a very fair point though.

[JonM]

I don't know how well you have studied American government but it is often completely gridlocked thanks to the number of checks and balances in the system.  I wouldn't want the American system at all.  I don't know anything about the Canadian system and so cannot comment.

 

Completely agree. There's a lot of daft stuff in our system, but it generally works. One of the problems with things like the recent referenda is that we don't have much of a constitutional history with them to say how it should work - how soon can another be called in Scotland, for example.

[Saintslass]

Completely agree. There's a lot of daft stuff in our system, but it generally works. One of the problems with things like the recent referenda is that we don't have much of a constitutional history with them to say how it should work - how soon can another be called in Scotland, for example.

The Scots can't call a referendum on independence without Westminster's consent.  That much I do know.

[tonyXIII]

Doesn't help when many of the elected members on one side firmly believe that the best government is no government.

 

Do you take sugar in your TEA?

[bowes]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/13/canada-pm-warning-to-brussels-if-you-wont-do-a-trade-deal-with-u/

Looks like the rest of the world is losing patience with parts of the EU wanting to block out the rest of the world. If they can't trade freely with a country like Canada who exactly can they trade with outside their bloc of stagnant and declining economies?