Olney defeats Goldsmith in Richmond Park by-election

[Ramite]

First being in the eu protected employment rights now it doesn't. Makes sense to me. I'm thankful for the eu before then we had no H&s laws or employment rights. Our omnipotent partially elected betters in Brussels continue to lead the way.

[Niels]

They also increased the Employment Tribunal fees dramatically and introduced new reasons to make it easier for employers to dismiss people.

[JohnM]

Old? I bet he's got a few years on you.

He represents the only political party that is speaking up for the 16.1 million who voted remain. That's quite a sizable constituency.

Not so, though.

[Trojan]

First being in the eu protected employment rights now it doesn't. Makes sense to me. I'm thankful for the eu before then we had no H&s laws or employment rights. Our omnipotent partially elected betters in Brussels continue to lead the way.

I can only speak for the construction industry.  Twenty five years ago, I could wander on to a site, without PPE, without induction, and without any previous experience, start operating a  piece of dangerous machinery and no one would ask any questions.  I couldn't do that today.  That is thanks to EU H&s rules.

 I recall a demolition company (they were the worst) dismantling a power station without asbestos protection.  As it happened they were being filmed by a news team, when asked what they were doing the literally ran away, the boss drove his Landrover at the cameraman.  That is what it was like.  It was no surprise that construction had such a high death rate  People who made a fuss about it like Rick Tomlinson ended up in prison.  Or black=listed as troublemakers by the Consulting Association, a data base run by the larger construction companies and outlawed by the EU courts. No doubt the owners of said companies are anxious to reinstate the blacklist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consulting_Association

 

[clwydianrange]

You'll find that our improvements in health and safety have got nothing to do with being in the Eu. We have always exceeded the Eu minimum standards and have been leaders in H&S matters. Look at construction sites in Europe today and sites in the U.K. There is no comparison.

[Saintslass]

First being in the eu protected employment rights now it doesn't. Makes sense to me. I'm thankful for the eu before then we had no H&s laws or employment rights. Our omnipotent partially elected betters in Brussels continue to lead the way.

I think you need to do a bit of research if you think that!

[Trojan]

You'll find that our improvements in health and safety have got nothing to do with being in the Eu. We have always exceeded the Eu minimum standards and have been leaders in H&S matters. Look at construction sites in Europe today and sites in the U.K. There is no comparison.

Like it or not the major improvements in site safety have come in the last twenty five years, basically since Maastricht.

[JohnM]

My 25 year-old grand daughter has grown and blossomed since Maastrcht, too. Nowt to do with the treaty, though.

[clwydianrange]

Like it or not the major improvements in site safety have come in the last twenty five years, basically since Maastricht.

Maastricht had beggar all to do with it. The HASWA 1974 is the bedrock for all health and safety in this country. This has been continually supplemented by various codes of practice and other legislation drafted up by the UK government. It is a continually improving process that has nowt to do with Europe. They lag miles behind us.

[Bedford Roughyed]

My 25 year-old grand daughter has grown and blossomed since Maastrcht, too. Nowt to do with the treaty, though.

 

 

Did your years in France help or hinder her growth as a person?

[Saintslass]

I'd say there are more than two.

 

 

Fourthly. It is the far from an unusual swing away from the government in power, particularly when there are economic difficulties. Some voters will have picked up that the Prime Minister et al appeared to have announced a change in direction from Cameron's and Osborne's only way to ensure recovery from the recession policies...

 

The trouble with this theory is that the Tories didn't field a candidate so you can't actually say whether the swing was anything to do with government policy at all given that the government weren't represented at the ballot box.

[Bedford Roughyed]

The trouble with this theory is that the Tories didn't field a candidate so you can't actually say whether the swing was anything to do with government policy at all given that the government weren't represented at the ballot box.

 

 

Yes in no way Goldsmith a tory candidate.  If you ignore the support from the constituency tories, their support on the website, in person, the support from Tory MPs in campaigning, then yes he truly was independent.

[tonyXIII]

The trouble with this theory is that the Tories didn't field a candidate so you can't actually say whether the swing was anything to do with government policy at all given that the government weren't represented at the ballot box.

You must be the only person on Earth who thinks "the government weren't represented at the ballot box."

The only reason there was no official Tory candidate was because Goldsmith was a Tory candidate in every way except Heathrow expansion. The Tories didn't field a candidate in order to leave the way clear for a Tory in all but name.

[Trojan]

Maastricht had beggar all to do with it. The HASWA 1974 is the bedrock for all health and safety in this country. This has been continually supplemented by various codes of practice and other legislation drafted up by the UK government. It is a continually improving process that has nowt to do with Europe. They lag miles behind us.

And the construction companies blacklisting those who tried to enforce it never happened then?  I speak from personal experience the H&S regimes on sites has tightened up considerably since the 1990's.  As I stated earlier, before then it was almost non existent.

[Ramite]

I can only speak for the construction industry. Twenty five years ago, I could wander on to a site, without PPE, without induction, and without any previous experience, start operating a piece of dangerous machinery and no one would ask any questions. I couldn't do that today. That is thanks to EU H&s rules.

I recall a demolition company (they were the worst) dismantling a power station without asbestos protection. As it happened they were being filmed by a news team, when asked what they were doing the literally ran away, the boss drove his Landrover at the cameraman. That is what it was like. It was no surprise that construction had such a high death rate People who made a fuss about it like Rick Tomlinson ended up in prison. Or black=listed as troublemakers by the Consulting Association, a data base run by the larger construction companies and outlawed by the EU courts. No doubt the owners of said companies are anxious to reinstate the blacklist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consulting_Association

It's not thanks to eu h and s rules , cscs card was brought in by the HSE. In 1995 under a tory government who we keep being told are here to dismantle employment legislation however when you dig down its not as black and white as some have us believe.

[Tommygilf]

If indeed this was, as Mr Farron is keen to suggest, a vote on Brexit (Lib Dems for remainers and Goldsmith for leavers);then there was actually a swing to leave in the constituency.

Clearly to mark this byelection victory for the lib dems (more like them regaining a seat they lost 6 years ago) as a great loss to the government and a major win for Remain is to perhaps, over-exaggerate? I'm not saying the other side have never done such a thing, but would just want to qualify any wildly ambitious claims about the results meaning.

[RidingPie]

If indeed this was, as Mr Farron is keen to suggest, a vote on Brexit (Lib Dems for remainers and Goldsmith for leavers);then there was actually a swing to leave in the constituency.

Clearly to mark this byelection victory for the lib dems (more like them regaining a seat they lost 6 years ago) as a great loss to the government and a major win for Remain is to perhaps, over-exaggerate? I'm not saying the other side have never done such a thing, but would just want to qualify any wildly ambitious claims about the results meaning.

The interesting thing that Farron said, which I mentioned earlier, was his claim that 1/3rd of conservative leave voters voted Olney. Now this was from research of the doorstep, which I'm weary of taking 100% but their predictions from that research over the result were pretty good so who knows.

Also remember quite a few remain voters will have voted for Goldsmith out of loyalty.

[Trojan]

It's not thanks to eu h and s rules , cscs card was brought in by the HSE. In 1995 under a tory government who we keep being told are here to dismantle employment legislation however when you dig down its not as black and white as some have us believe.

I've a lot of time for John Major, he was a decent PM,  He enacted legislation that would have come from Maastricht anyway

[clwydianrange]

And the construction companies blacklisting those who tried to enforce it never happened then?  I speak from personal experience the H&S regimes on sites has tightened up considerably since the 1990's.  As I stated earlier, before then it was almost non existent.

I agree with you about H&S being tightened up but it's had nowt to do with the Euro or Maastricht as you keep saying.

[Tommygilf]

The interesting thing that Farron said, which I mentioned earlier, was his claim that 1/3rd of conservative leave voters voted Olney. Now this was from research of the doorstep, which I'm weary of taking 100% but their predictions from that research over the result were pretty good so who knows.

Also remember quite a few remain voters will have voted for Goldsmith out of loyalty.

 

I'm also sceptical of that evidence. The constituency was 70% for remain before the by-election, and the lib dems did not get anywhere near that percentage (let alone real terms numbers) of votes; hence my scepticism. If the lib dems want to make every single constituency vote a by-election on Brexit then its only continuing the highly divisive politics that have been nasty at times on both sides.

 

If there was a loyalty vote, then surely that undermines the rhetoric that this was all about Brexit? If remainers were willing to vote for a Brexiteer and vice-versa, then party politics and policy is clearly more important.

 

EDIT: And frankly after the last two political years I'm not believing a poll by anyone!

[Trojan]

I'm also sceptical of that evidence. The constituency was 70% for remain before the by-election, and the lib dems did not get anywhere near that percentage (let alone real terms numbers) of votes; hence my scepticism. If the lib dems want to make every single constituency vote a by-election on Brexit then its only continuing the highly divisive politics that have been nasty at times on both sides.

 

If there was a loyalty vote, then surely that undermines the rhetoric that this was all about Brexit? If remainers were willing to vote for a Brexiteer and vice-versa, then party politics and policy is clearly more important.

 

EDIT: And frankly after the last two political years I'm not believing a poll by anyone!

They may have been in two minds, because from what I've read Goldsmith was a good hardworking constituency MP.

[Tommygilf]

They may have been in two minds, because from what I've read Goldsmith was a good hardworking constituency MP.

 

Well, he did resign as a result of the Heathrow decision based on a pledge he made to constituents.

[Saintslass]

Yes in no way Goldsmith a tory candidate.  If you ignore the support from the constituency tories, their support on the website, in person, the support from Tory MPs in campaigning, then yes he truly was independent.

UKIP gave him their support too but he was never an MP for or member of UKIP.

 

The government wasn't represented.  They should have been.  Fielding a remain MP would have been a good idea but for some dumb reason they didn't.  Probably complacency.  I'm sure they've learned their lesson.

[tonyXIII]

UKIP gave him their support too but he was never an MP for or member of UKIP.

 

The government wasn't represented.  They should have been.  Fielding a remain MP would have been a good idea but for some dumb reason they didn't.  Probably complacency.  I'm sure they've learned their lesson.

 

Paragraph 1 - utterly irrelevant and missing the point completely. Goldsmith was the former Tory - that's TORY!! - MP for the constituency.

 

Paragraph 2 - delusional at best. Goldsmith represented the Tories and the Tories threw everything into supporting him. But carry on with your 'black is white' perspective by all means. I enjoy a good laugh.

[longboard]

The trouble with this theory is that the Tories didn't field a candidate so you can't actually say whether the swing was anything to do with government policy at all given that the government weren't represented at the ballot box.

 

I wouldn't dignify my post withe the word theory.

 

Goldsmith was treated in many respects as a Tory candidate by the party with support provided by its elected representatives, although he didn't have their formal imprimatur. One could argue he was a de facto Conservative candidate. 

 

What was the reason the Tories didn't put up a candidate against ZC? Presumably they thought it would split the conservative vote.

 

The Tories were in a cleft stick somewhat, given that they were probably cognisant of the usual fate of MPs/candidates who resign and stand as independents, as well as the likely result of splitting the conservative vote...

 

They could be forgiven for being less than gruntled with ZG given their slender majority.

 

Anyway good old Zac has the opportunity to revert to his non-dom status.