Rimmer "Philadelphia & other north american cities interested in joining league structure"

[damp squib]

18 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

As I understand it the NFL is a series of clubs all Multi-Millionaire backed.

A bit like Salford, who can not bother selling tickets to a game, and let the fans all in for free.

Do you really not believe that higher crowds are not a necessary goal??

The RFL did, they changed the league system to try to achieve this then lost thousands of fans in Bradford and may lose them in time in East Hull if they don't change things back again.

I've answered that question at least twice in discussions with you.

This thread is about a possible future trans-hemispheric SL with several North American clubs yet you keep talking about it as if it will be Toronto in for Widnes, Philadelphia in for Salford, Miami for Wakefield etc. in a straight swap with no changes to the profile or finances of the SL. I can assure you that if the loss of a few hundred away fans is an unassailable financial obstacle to a North American expansion then it will never happen and you can stop worrying.

[damp squib]

1 hour ago, jim_57 said:

As an Australian I've never really understood the fascination with "away fans". If Parramatta get 421.07 people for a game against Penrith I don't anyone would even think to suggest the problem was Penrith not "bringing" enough fans.

 

And before someone jumps down my throat, I know, I know, differences in culture and all that. I just can't help but feel the importance is severely overstated.

It's funny when people talk about P&R and teams being 20 minutes down the road so away fans can travel as being essential to the survival of RL. It's as though they've never heard of another ever so slightly more successful RL competition with neither of those things.

[The Parksider]

13 minutes ago, damp squib said:

 I can assure you that if the loss of a few hundred away fans is an unassailable financial obstacle to a North American expansion then it will never happen and you can stop worrying.

The value of away fans is important if there is a lack of money.

If this expansion programme attracts great investment, as I say they can not even bother with home fans.

[The Parksider]

12 minutes ago, damp squib said:

It's funny when people talk about P&R and teams being 20 minutes down the road so away fans can travel as being essential to the survival of RL. It's as though they've never heard of another ever so slightly more successful RL competition with neither of those things.

Your mixing up two separate issues. One game has the investment levels not to feel any pinch if the fan levels are not maximised.

Even Warrington's Roger Draper said the pinch was felt when Widnes didn't bring many away fans to the HJ stadium on the second fixture when the crowd was 5,000 down.

If anyone who wants to persist in the idea away fans don't matter tell that to Mr, Draper they mattered to him, conversely as I have said they didn't matter to marwan when catalans were the next game up, not even the home fans mattered as he let them in for free.

I'm fine with canadian Millionaires and canadian TV companies pumping so many £Millions into the game that maximising crowds does not matter. Until then they clearly do.

[Oxford]

48 minutes ago, damp squib said:

It's funny when people talk about P&R and teams being 20 minutes down the road so away fans can travel as being essential to the survival of RL. It's as though they've never heard of another ever so slightly more successful RL competition with neither of those things.

Cognitive dissonance is something human beings can manage if they're not  RL fans.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, jim_57 said:

As an Australian I've never really understood the fascination with "away fans". If Parramatta get 421.07 people for a game against Penrith I don't anyone would even think to suggest the problem was Penrith not "bringing" enough fans.

And before someone jumps down my throat, I know, I know, differences in culture and all that. I just can't help but feel the importance is severely overstated.

As a Canadian I don't either.  In Canada and the US, with only a handful of exceptions teams are so far apart geographically that it's ludicrous even to think of "away fans" being important.  Calgary and Edmonton are local rivals by our standards but they're 300 km apart.

[Allora]

Off topic.

Every time I see a thread like this I think of Red Dwarf and something else.

[Allora]

3 hours ago, jim_57 said:

As an Australian I've never really understood the fascination with "away fans". If Parramatta get 421.07 people for a game against Penrith I don't anyone would even think to suggest the problem was Penrith not "bringing" enough fans.

 

And before someone jumps down my throat, I know, I know, differences in culture and all that. I just can't help but feel the importance is severely overstated.

That is not a great example though.

Its a local Derby and a big part of the games heartlands are situated between these two centers, a game at Penrith or Parramatta should get plenty from either Club.

If you said Parramatta V Manly, Cronulla or Souths or others that are long distances it would click.

 

[Bob8]

11 hours ago, The Parksider said:

The value of away fans is important if there is a lack of money.

If this expansion programme attracts great investment, as I say they can not even bother with home fans.

If we are so desperate that we need clubs to be so close as to be overlapping, they we are utterly buggered and need to try something completely different.  It is people who think the old way is OK who have pie in the sky thinking.

[jim_57]

9 hours ago, Allora said:

That is not a great example though.

Its a local Derby and a big part of the games heartlands are situated between these two centers, a game at Penrith or Parramatta should get plenty from either Club.

If you said Parramatta V Manly, Cronulla or Souths or others that are long distances it would click.

 

I think it is a perfect example. Even in the closest geographical derbies if the home team attracts a poor crowd nobody is really going to blame the other team's fans.

[The Parksider]

11 hours ago, Bob8 said:

If we are so desperate that we need clubs to be so close as to be overlapping, they we are utterly buggered and need to try something completely different.  It is people who think the old way is OK who have pie in the sky thinking.

 

This was never really the point.

In the brave new world of expansion 2009 Crusaders gave Leeds an opening day crowd that was below average, then Harlequins and Catalans also delivered poor crowds well below average and poor atmospheres, as I noted at the time.

Thanks to away fans Cas, Bradford and Saints put thousands more on the gates and the matches were more exciting.

You can kick Bradford, Castleford, Wakefield and HKR out of Superleague and put Toronto, Toulouse, Newcastle and Philadelphia in instead, but expect on the evidence to date some pretty bemused Leeds fans ignoring the play and chatting away with only half an eye on the Rugby asking why their mates haven't turned up for the matches.

We can tap away at keyboards in our bedrooms in great excitement of the prospect of a transatlantic Superleague, and then assume wrongly that the current customers will be equally excited.

Well they won't. 

The big criticism that RL fans are parochial insular and flat capped whippet owners, is merely an exaggeration of a trait in which fans do value tradition, they do like the "local game for local folk" aspect of RL, they do value the rivalries, they do love the history and if that is all to be poo pooed at by patronising modernising expansionists (not you Bob just making a point), they do love  the clubs they've watched playing theirs over many years.

I may not be a rabid flat capper, but I do observe that you have to be careful about breaking up old rivalries, because the fans have a choice, when Leeds.v.Cas is no longer on because it's now Leeds,v,Toronto expect thousands of fans simply not to bother. Leeds got 17,000 and Cas got 11,000 for these league fixtures.

What real substance is there to Mr. Hetheringtons lament that he no longer will see 20,000 derby's with Bradford but is stuck with 12,000 for Toulouse instead, when it's answered with the sort of stuff above where several fans just come on here and tell me "It's not important".

Well it is  because 8,000 fans is probably £160,000 is that not important? 

The other duff reply is NRL and NFL don't rely on away fans. Well the queen doesn't have to rely on having a job but that's just no answer at all, we are not the NRL of the NFL, if people want to use this argument would either American Football or Australian Rugby consider throwing four of their clubs out  for some English franchises??

No.

So the challenge is to answer the actual point. Here it is.

"Why do we not see the danger of radical change, in that our customer base of about 120,000 RL fans are most unliklely to be enthused by it let alone buy tickets to it"

"Is it because the transatlantic brigade would just like to see it happen, or do they really think that English RL supporters will be enthused and grow in number because of it"

"Or is it because modernisers would actually be happy to break up the English game if that meant a North American league could then be the result?

As a customer of RL for 50 years and no fervent traditionalist, I don't want the latter.

[The Parksider]

On 18/02/2017 at 2:33 PM, Big Picture said:

As a Canadian I don't either.  In Canada and the US, with only a handful of exceptions teams are so far apart geographically that it's ludicrous even to think of "away fans" being important.  Calgary and Edmonton are local rivals by our standards but they're 300 km apart.

 

 

 

If you going to infer the argument is "Ludicrous" then back up that statement that merely gives me the distance between two Canadian cities who don't play Rugby league? 

It's 3,400 miles from Toronto to Bradford so I don't suppose Toronto will bring many fans to help Bradford return to the club they once were. It's about 10 miles from Leeds to Bradford so I guess if they can get back in Superleague Leeds fans can make the short journey and put well over £100,000 over the counter in one afternoon to assist that rehabilitation.

What are Toronto going to put over the counter? Currently they've nicked a CC1 place and I assume they got no SKY funding? If they get that then that would not be right. How many fans will they bring? They've certainly taken a big wedge of players out of the English game, so the Championship playing roster is depleted by Canadian dollars.  I assume the Toronto trips will exact a large bill for the Championship clubs Toronto will pay? But again this won't put a cent over the counter here unless they become a big box office draw down Gloucester way?

Some years ago I went to Featherstone to see Lebanon play at Post Office Road against I think Samoa, because they actually had some players that were IIRC Lebanese. It fascinated me. It didn't fascinate anyone much in Fev and only a couple of hundred attended. If Toronto come over with an English team will that be a box office draw? Not down Fev way I suggest.

It seems to me we should start to ask Rimmer why Toronto are throwing large amounts of money at English players to get out of his precious "development" league because it seems to me Toronto cannot get out of it fast enough, It seems to me they don't want to play the game and "build from the bottom up". If Canadian RL is starting to show some strength, why can't they spend a couple of seasons testing that against Hemel, Oxford, Scorpions and Coventry?

Within a matter of months the Canadians will be recruiting another English team from our playing rosters for a campaign in the Championship they will equally have no interest in. All thoughts will be their likely Licence application, and at that point you may wish to comment on what exactly will THEY be bringing to the party? Or will they just be after the £1,825,000 a year on offer with every license??

It is 3,800 miles from Red Hall toTimbuktu. So what??.

[Lowdesert]

In one of the richest sports in the world, football, how many fans do Barcelona bring to Man U?  It would be interesting to know, percentage wise.

Chasing foreign players to bolster emerging, or weak, teams that have ambition is nothing new.  France were paying good money for average English club RU players to come across 30 years ago.  No one complained.

Why should further opportunity for average RL players, seeking a living in Canada or USA be an issue? It is their right, their choice and gives them an opportunity they might not get in the UK.

I suppose having UK players in North America means this is not now classed as expansion either.

 

[GaryO]

PARKY,

I imagine that some will see you as a modern day Rugby League Ludite, as for me I think you talking complete sense, but hey, the Canadians are only borrowing some players for the time being, they will rear their own in double quick time, take the SL title in 3 years and be both WCC winners and WC winners shortly after.

[The Parksider]

1 minute ago, GaryO said:

PARKY,

I imagine that some will see you as a modern day Rugby League Ludite, as for me I think you talking complete sense, but hey, the Canadians are only borrowing some players for the time being, they will rear their own in double quick time, take the SL title in 3 years and be both WCC winners and WC winners shortly after.

 

The Luddites smashed up things that were good for English business.

I await finding out from someone how Toronto are good for our Superleague business, perhaps they will smash it up.

[The Parksider]

12 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Why should further opportunity for average RL players, seeking a living in Canada or USA be an issue?

 

1

It's not an issue it's a red herring because you can't answer the main question posed, so you pick at a tiny bit you can rebuff in some irrelevant way.

Pretty soon Toronto will throw out a batch of these people "making a living".and engage another batch to get to the top of the Championship and then they will throw them out whilst they seek an SL licence and look to recruit professionals not average RL players.

I'm sure all those healthy young sportsmen will know the score and enjoy their short rides, but being used for a season and then discarded is hardly "making a living" is it??..

[The Future is League]

7 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

The Luddites smashed up things that were good for English business.

I await finding out from someone how Toronto are good for our Superleague business, perhaps they will smash it up.

It raises the profile of Rugby League which in turn will bring in more sponsors which brings more money into the game.

[The Parksider]

2 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

It raises the profile of Rugby League which in turn will bring in more sponsors which brings more money into the game.

Which English companies will now sponsor RL because Toronto are now playing Hemel and Oxford before 100 fans?

How did the sponsorship world react to London making Rugby League an English game, not just a northern one.

How did the sponsorship world react to Catalans making Rugby league a European game, not just an English one.

Not a peep because they are not daft......

[The Future is League]

1 minute ago, The Parksider said:

Which English companies will now sponsor RL because Toronto are now playing Hemel and Oxford before 100 fans?

How did the sponsorship world react to London making Rugby League an English game, not just a northern one.

How did the sponsorship world react to Catalans making Rugby league a European game, not just an English one.

Not a peep because they are not daft......

Take off that flat cap and put your whippet in his kennel and look at the broader picture, we will be breaking into the North American sports market.

[The Parksider]

40 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

1. Take off that flat cap and put your whippet in his kennel

2. Look at the broader picture, we will be breaking into the North American sports market.

 

 

1. Just a matter of time before someone has a go at me rather than the question. You're a nice chap I'll let you have that one as my dog is a whippet/collie cross.

2. You say we "will be" breaking into the North American sports market. That's a bold statement and really good as you recognise this is about business and business is about money. Now you need to back that up and show me where European Superleague will gain a monetary benefit from Toronto RLFC?

I note you have failed to back up your "more sponsors" point as you probably accept slick marketing managers are smarter than you or me and won't be thinking a low level Canadian RL team full of Brits is going to sell anything but a few scarves and badges. Two things for you to answer....

A. In breaking into that Market please explain how the rise in Superleague (or RFL) income will come about, and how much you think that may be? I can only see take, take, take from Toronto so far.

B. As for the flat cap whippet owner with Luddite tendencies I'm not against Toronto, it's just that I would have offered them three years in the "development league" with the proviso they had to use (like our clubs do) more home grown players like Bain and Dempsey and try to get the numbers up until a largely North American team was developed in that league. Once the results were on show then up to the Championship.

Remember they offered us a new player pool, so they should produce that before anything else. It's not hard to do when half the clubs in CC1 don't even come up to NCL level. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, GaryO said:

PARKY,

I imagine that some will see you as a modern day Rugby League Ludite, as for me I think you talking complete sense, but hey, the Canadians are only borrowing some players for the time being, they will rear their own in double quick time, take the SL title in 3 years and be both WCC winners and WC winners shortly after.

Don't create strawmen to battle with. It makes any point you have obsolete.

What is the issue with the Canadians signing British players? Has this venture not given us another full time club? Isn't that a good thing?

[GaryO]

26 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Take off that flat cap and put your whippet in his kennel and look at the broader picture, we will be breaking into the North American sports market.

Yes Toronto are doing exactly as you say, they are breaking into the North American sports market, but with what exactly.

As Parky points out the players they employ, are just a work in progress, good enough to accomplish the job in hand, then they will be discarded and replaced to equip the club for the next challenge, eventually requiring the best SL can offer to acheive their goal. Will the SL chairmen accept losing their best? And under present legislation they can have squillions more money to spend, but they will not be able to do it ala the Good Doctor at Salford.

I wrote earlier in the thread that there would be a minimum of 3 generations for them to become self sustainable in player development, for that they need a junior structure in the country resembling BARLA from the tiny ones, the kids, the juniors, the intermediates and an open age, until that time comes, they will be dipping into a pool that is not big enough to sustain not only Toronto without demising other teams, and what will happen if as Rimmer says the North Americans are queuing up to join our League.

[The Parksider]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

 

Chasing foreign players to bolster emerging, or weak, teams that have ambition is nothing new.  

 

 

 

No it's not is it.

South Yorkshire hopefuls Doncaster chased foreign players from Wakefield to bolster their 1951 ambitions, and 65 years on they now chase their players from Hull. Les Catalans had eleven foreign players in their team last season to bolster a weak French core.

But is Canadian RL so weak they have to use a British team? If so first things first, let them play CC1 until Canadian players start to come through.

But hang on -  Apparently as the title of this thread states there are other North American cities interested, so that's a whole load of "foreign" players needed for those gigs. What would you do? Allow these clubs to raid the Championship playing rosters like Toronto have done, or maybe let them all play each other in CC1 for a while all the grid iron players get their heads and hands round league?

[GaryO]

11 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Don't create strawmen to battle with. It makes any point you have obsolete.

What is the issue with the Canadians signing British players? Has this venture not given us another full time club? Isn't that a good thing?

OK, I was being sarcastic Wellsey, I hope I've quantified it with the follow on post, yes it is good to have another full time club, but what will they be putting into the game here more so than they will be taking out.

[The Future is League]

11 minutes ago, GaryO said:

Yes Toronto are doing exactly as you say, they are breaking into the North American sports market, but with what exactly.

As Parky points out the players they employ, are just a work in progress, good enough to accomplish the job in hand, then they will be discarded and replaced to equip the club for the next challenge, eventually requiring the best SL can offer to acheive their goal. Will the SL chairmen accept losing their best? And under present legislation they can have squillions more money to spend, but they will not be able to do it ala the Good Doctor at Salford.

I wrote earlier in the thread that there would be a minimum of 3 generations for them to become self sustainable in player development, for that they need a junior structure in the country resembling BARLA from the tiny ones, the kids, the juniors, the intermediates and an open age, until that time comes, they will be dipping into a pool that is not big enough to sustain not only Toronto without demising other teams, and what will happen if as Rimmer says the North Americans are queuing up to join our League.

'Yes Toronto are doing exactly as you say, they are breaking into the North Amercian sports market, but with what exactly"

Awareness my friend, awareness of Rugby League.

Yes it takes time, but we must stick at it and then we will succeed.