Rimmer "Philadelphia & other north american cities interested in joining league structure"

[GaryO]

1 minute ago, The Future is League said:

'Yes Toronto are doing exactly as you say, they are breaking into the North Amercian sports market, but with what exactly"

Awareness my friend, awareness of Rugby League.

Yes it takes time, but we must stick at it and then we will succeed.

And until such time, the managers of our game at RLHQ will have to put more and more resources into enticing youngsters to play the game over here, to me it is quite obvious that we will be the feeders of the talent the north Americans will require for a very long time.

Pity we lost the funding of Sport England through the RFL's lack of promotion to entice newbies to the game.

[The Parksider]

24 minutes ago, GaryO said:

And until such time, the managers of our game at RLHQ will have to put more and more resources into enticing youngsters to play the game over here,

 

 

"Canada Rugby League (CRL) is the governing body for the sport of rugby league football in Canada. Founded in 2010, the CRL organizes the Canada national rugby league team and supports the development of the game through the country's domestic competitions"

This is of Perez's making and absolutely fair play to him. If it helps his ambitions to grow the game in Canada then by all means let him play Toronto in the Championship One and let Canadians in the domestic league aspire to play trans-atlantic Rugby league, if it works out and they develop as RL players then let him take his club a step up to the Championship.

You may ask whether the Championship want this, but according to the PR stuff they do which is fine. Perez also spoke about a switch to Canadian players "in time" which I don't like as they already have Canadian players, so play them to develop them. Again if they can't handle the likes of Hemel. Oxford, south wales etc. who operate below NCL level then they really should carry on developing Canadian RL until they can.

I suspect the Canadian game isn't showing the growth Perez wants and this scheme will be a throw of the dice. Very interesting stuff, but forget a Superleague Toronto. If they really have the money and interest they say they do then spend it on developing your own game lads.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

55 minutes ago, GaryO said:

OK, I was being sarcastic Wellsey, I hope I've quantified it with the follow on post, yes it is good to have another full time club, but what will they be putting into the game here more so than they will be taking out.

They're giving me opportunities to players to turn full time.

They're giving a new market the opportunity to watch professional rugby league.

They've sold more season tickets (allegedly) than the rest of the league combined.

This is costing the game nothing financially.

 

What exactly are they "taking out" of the game that no other club is?

And more importantly, what is any other club at that level putting in more than them?

[GaryO]

8 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

They're giving me opportunities to players to turn full time.

They're giving a new market the opportunity to watch professional rugby league.

They've sold more season tickets (allegedly) than the rest of the league combined.

This is costing the game nothing financially.

 

What exactly are they "taking out" of the game that no other club is?

And more importantly, what is any other club at that level putting in more than them?

Wellsy,  I did say putting into the game HERE, nothing what you say substantiates what is happening here.

[The Parksider]

21 minutes ago, GaryO said:

Wellsy,  I did say putting into the game HERE, nothing what you say substantiates what is happening here.

 

 

 

You did say "putting in".

As it stands the Championship clubs are apparently OK with this, and I suppose I am too I'd just rather that they followed their own stated ambition and developed their own players NOW rather than saying it would come later.

It's also the projections people are putting on this that Toronto's actual ambition is aligned to Toulouse who simply want to race up the Championships and grab an SL place.

Nothing that he says deals with that projection.

As per the further projection that Montreal, Philadelphia and one other may well join Toronto, then if they have the money is it no damage done when four North American clubs all cashed up (allegedly) are in places 1,2,3 & 4 in the Championship.

Will the Championship clubs be OK with that then?? Will SL or championship clubs be OK with that when SL maybe need to find a replacement for a bankrupt SL club from the championship?

The argument "what's the problem" is very short sighted.

Toronto for Superleague instead of Hull.K.R is the question you should pose especially to anyone from the City of Hull.......

[Wellsy4HullFC]

39 minutes ago, GaryO said:

Wellsy,  I did say putting into the game HERE, nothing what you say substantiates what is happening here.

Sorry, missed that part.

But again, they are providing more full time opportunities for players from here, regardless of whether the opportunity is actually located here or not.

They are giving them more opportunity to earn. They aren't taking finances away from other clubs. 

If they are going to be fairly reliant on British players over their formative years, then they may end up getting a deal with a club over here too to act as a feeder as they progress, which would benefit the game. Melbourne fit example have feeder clubs in Queensland. 

That's all speculation of course, but when a club hasn't even had its first competitive game, everything will be.

Giving an international dimension to our club game also gives fans the opportunity to see the game in other parts of the world. I'm very envious of other sports fans who can watch their club play abroad whilst I can only really see Hull in Perpignan. I'd love to have more variety, as would many of the other fans of spoken to. 

For the record, I'm not going to get involved in The Parky Show, so he can save his obvious troll bait and go spoil a different thread.

[TheReaper]

So if a rich group of investors led by Eric Perez bought some team in League 1, based it in England, and wanted to take that team up to SL, that would be fine? But because they're playing in Toronto, they're taking players out of the game? The same number of players are playing, if not even more being paid professionally. The RFL should already be trying to get the most number of players playing, and now they have the attraction of playing against, or for, international clubs. So.... what's the problem here?

And

Toronto should be developing their own players... well, that's kind of what the CRL and the clubs are trying to do. And what better inspiration than a professional team in the city?

And a team that relies on away support vs a team that doesn't... sounds like a team that's well supported. Shouldn't every team try to fill the stadium with their fans?

[Big Picture]

18 hours ago, The Parksider said:

If you going to infer the argument is "Ludicrous" then back up that statement that merely gives me the distance between two Canadian cities who don't play Rugby league? 

It's 3,400 miles from Toronto to Bradford so I don't suppose Toronto will bring many fans to help Bradford return to the club they once were. It's about 10 miles from Leeds to Bradford so I guess if they can get back in Superleague Leeds fans can make the short journey and put well over £100,000 over the counter in one afternoon to assist that rehabilitation.

What are Toronto going to put over the counter? Currently they've nicked a CC1 place and I assume they got no SKY funding? If they get that then that would not be right. How many fans will they bring? They've certainly taken a big wedge of players out of the English game, so the Championship playing roster is depleted by Canadian dollars.  I assume the Toronto trips will exact a large bill for the Championship clubs Toronto will pay? But again this won't put a cent over the counter here unless they become a big box office draw down Gloucester way?

Some years ago I went to Featherstone to see Lebanon play at Post Office Road against I think Samoa, because they actually had some players that were IIRC Lebanese. It fascinated me. It didn't fascinate anyone much in Fev and only a couple of hundred attended. If Toronto come over with an English team will that be a box office draw? Not down Fev way I suggest.

It seems to me we should start to ask Rimmer why Toronto are throwing large amounts of money at English players to get out of his precious "development" league because it seems to me Toronto cannot get out of it fast enough, It seems to me they don't want to play the game and "build from the bottom up". If Canadian RL is starting to show some strength, why can't they spend a couple of seasons testing that against Hemel, Oxford, Scorpions and Coventry?

Within a matter of months the Canadians will be recruiting another English team from our playing rosters for a campaign in the Championship they will equally have no interest in. All thoughts will be their likely Licence application, and at that point you may wish to comment on what exactly will THEY be bringing to the party? Or will they just be after the £1,825,000 a year on offer with every license??

It is 3,800 miles from Red Hall toTimbuktu. So what??.

They're investing serious money into their venture and they want it to succeed.  Just as Hemel's management came to recognize that they needed experience players to compete with the likes of Barrow and Doncaster so did Eric Perez and his partners.

Do you want RL in the northern hemisphere to find a way to outflank RU and get the better of those elitist SOBs or not?  If so, what other route do you have to suggest for the game to achieve that?

[The Parksider]

On 21/02/2017 at 1:10 AM, Big Picture said:

They're investing serious money into their venture and they want it to succeed.  Just as Hemel's management came to recognize that they needed experience players to compete with the likes of Barrow and Doncaster so did Eric Perez and his partners.

Do you want RL in the northern hemisphere to find a way to outflank RU and get the better of those elitist SOBs or not?  If so, what other route do you have to suggest for the game to achieve that?

Do you not think I would not want RU to be "outflanked"???

Of course I want that but you ignore my point. I do not want any attempt (note the word attempt because you know there are no guarantees this will outflank RU, and if we are honest it'd be a thousand to one shot) to diminish the one successful professional RL competition in the Hemishere I live in.

I remember attempts to outflank RU by taking Paris straight into Superleague. I remember Shane Richardson being allowed to take Gateshead Thunder straight into Superleague. We tried to outflank RU when the battle had commenced and was hotting up.

20 years on the war is pretty much won, and you may notice that Toronto Wolfpack were NOT admitted straight into the Superleague to take the NH to new heights and down the foe.

Rimmer can wax lyrical all he likes that's words, but you tell me why our saviours Toronto Wolfpack just didn't get put straight in Superleague?? That's actions which speak louder?

[The Parksider]

On 21/02/2017 at 1:10 AM, Big Picture said:

Do you want RL in the northern hemisphere to find a way to outflank RU and get the better of those elitist SOBs or not?  If so, what other route do you have to suggest for the game to achieve that?

On what basis is it an argument to set up an impossible task, impossible without £Millions and taking big risks, and ask me to come up with something better OR I assume shut up??

Again you miss my point. I'm all for Toronto improving themselves in the Championship. let the plan commence.

But WAIT and see what happens before projecting the plan forwards where Toronto bet promoted twice to Superleague and then other North American cities flood in, and after that they withdraw from SL to form their own league with other North American cities leaving European RL in tatters.

I've answered your point about this, one step at a time, now you answer my point that if the above happens SL is likely to be ruined, being used and then discarded in such a manner.

[GaryO]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

On what basis is it an argument to set up an impossible task, impossible without £Millions and taking big risks, and ask me to come up with something better OR I assume shut up??

Again you miss my point. I'm all for Toronto improving themselves in the Championship. let the plan commence.

But WAIT and see what happens before projecting the plan forwards where Toronto bet promoted twice to Superleague and then other North American cities flood in, and after that they withdraw from SL to form their own league with other North American cities leaving European RL in tatters.

I've answered your point about this, one step at a time, now you answer my point that if the above happens SL is likely to be ruined, being used and then discarded in such a manner.

Parky, I get the strong whiff of dreams omitting from pipes on this subject, how many teams are the dreamers considering will constitute a NA League structure, on page 1 of this thread Manfred is speculating that has many as 16 teams could be possibly in the mix, albeit that is after 4 teams have followed Montreal, who along with the initial Wolfpack have secured a foothold in establishing junior League's and providing a clear pathway to the pro game, I wish them every success of achieving their goal, but alas if it does go to fruition we could be looking at 30 to 40 years.

[Lowdesert]

On 20/02/2017 at 10:09 AM, The Parksider said:

It's not an issue it's a red herring because you can't answer the main question posed, so you pick at a tiny bit you can rebuff in some irrelevant way.

Pretty soon Toronto will throw out a batch of these people "making a living".and engage another batch to get to the top of the Championship and then they will throw them out whilst they seek an SL licence and look to recruit professionals not average RL players.

I'm sure all those healthy young sportsmen will know the score and enjoy their short rides, but being used for a season and then discarded is hardly "making a living" is it??..

Firstly, they are professional sportsmen and in some instances will have one year or less contracts.  When that's the case they will move on at contracts end.

Secondly, some cannot get much game time at the clubs they are at and Torontos deal might just suit them. 

Thirdly, contracts extending further than that will mean the player will have to be paid off/DRgd or found something else.

Why shouldn't heartlands players and Clubs be allowed to make their own decisions without being criticised for it?  Theyve been paid or received what the contract said.  Where's the red herring?

[The Parksider]

14 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Firstly, they are professional sportsmen and in some instances will have one year or less contracts.  When that's the case they will move on at contracts end.

Secondly, some cannot get much game time at the clubs they are at and Torontos deal might just suit them. 

Thirdly, contracts extending further than that will mean the player will have to be paid off/DRgd or found something else.

Why shouldn't heartlands players and Clubs be allowed to make their own decisions without being criticised for it?  Theyve been paid or received what the contract said.  Where's the red herring?

In the fact that if Toronto provide an exciting opportunity for English RL players to become trans-atlantic RL professionals for one year or two years then absolutely great for them. I'm sure a bit more money and all expenses paid travel will be better than staying in Keighley or Barrow. Ultimately Toronto can work up to SL and equally English RL players would be free to take up this exciting opportunity.

But the core debate here isn't freedom of choice for players, it's about how attitudes will change if Toronto garner success as they and allegedly "Other north american cities" (read what it says on the tin) rise through the leagues on the back of English players leaving English SL aspirants as also rans.

Once in SL on English talent will enough top English stars also fancy the plane rides and the big city life in Canada. That's up to them but as far as Lenegan and his fellow top chairmen are concerned new clubs are most welcome but must develop their own players, Toulouse were left in no doubt and as far as i know Lenegan has not spoken to Perez.

Players is the key here. Perez is supposedly developing Canada's own through his "domestic leagues" (read the web site) yet he makes big of how Grid Iron stars will make good RL players? So are his own development plans failing? Is the Grid Iron thing just something to get the RFL/SL interested (read the post that dismisses Grid Iron players turning to RL en masse).

All English RL players are free to go now and join Canadian clubs at all levels and always will be, but does Perez want to "use" our game to develop his own because Canadian development is stalling??

I'd suggest yes, and i'd suggest the RFL are equally using Toronto for some publicity and kudos for themselves.

This reality (for me) being a million miles from the idea of a professional North American League.

[The Parksider]

17 hours ago, GaryO said:

Parky, I get the strong whiff of dreams omitting from pipes on this subject, how many teams are the dreamers considering will constitute a NA League structure, on page 1 of this thread Manfred is speculating that has many as 16 teams could be possibly in the mix, .

We've discussed the realities of RL on here for years, and it doesn't make for happy reading. 

The alternative is (why not?) to dream a little, a North american league is a nice dream as is a 2x10 Superleague..

[damp squib]

8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Players is the key here. Perez is supposedly developing Canada's own through his "domestic leagues" (read the web site) yet he makes big of how Grid Iron stars will make good RL players? So are his own development plans failing?

The club is literally 10 months old and hasn't played a competitive game.

[DoubleD]

17 minutes ago, damp squib said:

The club is literally 10 months old and hasn't played a competitive game.

Yes but how many Super League players have they produced?

[The Parksider]

13 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Yes but how many Super League players have they produced?

whoooooossshhhh.......

Straight over your head DD, Be careful when your holding other people's coats, and try to improve on your reading and comprehension skills. 

If you look on the website Canada has it's own domestic leagues, and the website claims these leagues are the basis of developing the game in Canada. So the question remains about them developing their own players as opposed to shipping in an English team.

It's not as if the quality/level of playing ability in Hemel, Coventry, Oxford, South Wales, Gloucester etc is that high. If you look it up (try it sometime) it's below NCL level so Toronto could take the approach of fielding the best current Canadian players in their team and gradually building up their playing strength in CC1.

Once they can see off the minnows they can progress to tackling the might of Skolars, Hunslet and York. Your always going on about organic growth, like growing the game in Barnsley and Goole. Here's your chance to champion it. 

 

[The Parksider]

13 hours ago, damp squib said:

The club is literally 10 months old and hasn't played a competitive game.

Canadian RL is older than that. Perez's Canadian RL has been going 7 years.

[The Parksider]

13 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Yes but how many Super League players have they produced?

http://www.canadarugbyleague.com/

Here you go, look and learn..............

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Since when did a club have to field players exclusively from the area they're in? This isn't rep rugby. Producing and developing players doesn't mean you have to play a team exclusively of them.

Players develop by being around better players. If there are none there to start with, they'll need some from somewhere. Houghton wouldn't have been the player he was without training alongside Swain for example. 

What you are basically saying is that they can only develop by playing a team exclusively of Canadians. Not only would that be ineffective, it would be unattractive if they're getting hammered and costly if no one is interested (which is why people probably keep suggesting they do this as they know it wouldn't work).

[Tommygilf]

Would just like to highlight in response to points made on this thread that Hull vs Catalans on thursday drew the second biggest attendance of the weekend. 

[Tommygilf]

Oh my lord its happened again. Leeds vs Catalans draws the biggest crowd of the Weekend so far. Bigger than local rivals Wigan vs Warrington and massive clubs Hull FC and Saints. But obviously no away support ... blah... bring nothing to the table... blah... 

Imagine if the novelty hadn't worn off after 11 years! Nobody would turn up!

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Oh my lord its happened again. Leeds vs Catalans draws the biggest crowd of the Weekend so far. Bigger than local rivals Wigan vs Warrington and massive clubs Hull FC and Saints. But obviously no away support ... blah... bring nothing to the table... blah... 

Imagine if the novelty hadn't worn off after 11 years! Nobody would turn up!

The flatcappers are not going to like this.

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, The Future is League said:

The flatcappers are not going to like this.

Hull FC versus Catalans on a Thursday night got more than last nights game too. Shouldn't be allowed if you ask me.