Rimmer "Philadelphia & other north american cities interested in joining league structure"

[The Daddy]

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/sport/rugby-league-planning-expansion-us-philadelphia-club-mooted/

OK can we get a recap of all the new teams wanting to join the league structure? 

It would just be easier if their was just an American league with the best teams joining a World Club Series. There seems to be a battle for the heart of the sport in America with Jason Moore proposing a pro league and Argyle, Perez pulling the strings to get teams over to a sort of Anglo Atlantic Northern Hemisphere league.

Anyway, so far we have interest from: 

Montreal, Florida, Philadelphia, West Wales, Manchester Rangers, Scotland another Humberside team and potentially New York, Boston and Russia somewhere down the track. 

Now how can the sport best capitalise on this? My head hurts.

 

 

[The Daddy]

Furthermore can the RFL come out and make a formal public announcement on who has actually 'bid' to join the league structure and the status of each. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, The Daddy_merged said:

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/sport/rugby-league-planning-expansion-us-philadelphia-club-mooted/

OK can we get a recap of all the new teams wanting to join the league structure? 

It would just be easier if their was just an American league with the best teams joining a World Club Series. There seems to be a battle for the heart of the sport in America with Jason Moore proposing a pro league and Argyle, Perez pulling the strings to get teams over to a sort of Anglo Atlantic Northern Hemisphere league.

Anyway, so far we have interest from: 

Montreal, Florida, Philadelphia, West Wales, Manchester Rangers, Scotland another Humberside team and potentially New York, Boston and Russia somewhere down the track. 

Now how can the sport best capitalise on this? My head hurts.

 

 

A North American professional league is just a pipe dream. Same as a French or NZ professional league. The only way to grow RL in these new markets of the US, Canada or Russia etc is to allow them to enter the professional competitions of super league or the NRL like the Catalan dragons in super league and the NZ warriors in the NRL.

[Guest]

this is a very complex but very exciting challenge for RL in trying to figure out how to best accommodate these potential teams from North America but like I've said before on other threads that an ideal solution would be to have a North American conference    within super league of say 4-5 teams that play each other twice both home&away and have them play crossover fixtures with the European teams. 

[shaun mc]

I can only compare this scenario to that of NZ and France. How far has the domestic game in NZ and France progressed since the Warriors joined the NRL and Catalans joined SL. My guess isn't much or has in reality regressed. Happy to be proved wrong though...??

However, in the case of Toronto, Philadelphia and any other North American 'expansion' or 'progress', money may be the (huge) differentiating factor and could well swing it

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

I can only compare this scenario to that of NZ and France. How far has the domestic game in NZ and France progressed since the Warriors joined the NRL and Catalans joined SL. My guess isn't much or has in reality regressed. Happy to be proved wrong though...??

However, in the case of Toronto, Philadelphia and any other North American 'expansion' or 'progress', money may be the (huge) differentiating factor and could well swing it

Looking at both the domestic game in both NZ and France it would be fair to say that in both cases the game domestically hasn't progressed but for the NZ national side the inclusion of the Warriors has benefited the kiwis immensely. It's made RL more appealing to young kiwi kids and to young Union talent thus increasing the talent pool for the selectors of the NZ national side.

[damp squib]

13 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

I can only compare this scenario to that of NZ and France. How far has the domestic game in NZ and France progressed since the Warriors joined the NRL and Catalans joined SL. My guess isn't much or has in reality regressed. Happy to be proved wrong though...??

However, in the case of Toronto, Philadelphia and any other North American 'expansion' or 'progress', money may be the (huge) differentiating factor and could well swing it

It's the opposite. There are more Kiwis playing professional RL than any time in history. According to the French posters on this site, if Catalans hadn't entered SL Rugby League would no longer exist in France.

[Toby Chopra]

5 minutes ago, walter sobchak said:

Looking at both the domestic game in both NZ and France it would be fair to say that in both cases the game domestically hasn't progressed but for the NZ national side the inclusion of the Warriors has benefited the kiwis immensely. It's made RL more appealing to young kiwi kids and to young Union talent thus increasing the talent pool for the selectors of the NZ national side.

And the French posters on the '3rd French team' thread all said that league would have died in France without Catalans in SL. So yes, by definition having best clubs in other countries' competition weakens the top domestic competition, but it seems to do something significant to raise league's profile overall. 

[shaun mc]

1 minute ago, walter sobchak said:

Looking at both the domestic game in both NZ and France it would be fair to say that in both cases the game domestically hasn't progressed but for the NZ national side the inclusion of the Warriors has benefited the kiwis immensely. It's made RL more appealing to young kiwi kids and to young Union talent thus increasing the talent pool for the selectors of the NZ national side.

Thanks - yes, for the top 25/30 plus players that can represent the Kiwis the Warriors could be seen as a success.

Some have gone straight from juniors in NZ direct to scholarship/junior sides in the NRL but that does not progress the game 1% in NZ itself overall

A few more people may wear Warriors and NRL shirts around the place, but we have to think of the other levels and not just the peak of the pyramid. And below the peak, it hasn't increased the talent pool nor participation?

[Futtocks]

3 minutes ago, damp squib said:

It's the opposite. There are more Kiwis playing professional RL than any time in history. According to the French posters on this site, if Catalans hadn't entered SL Rugby League would no longer exist in France.

In the last few years, we've seen more French players in Super League than ever before, and not just at Catalans. That is a benefit to French RL, and will continue to grow. When British clubs see what players like Fages are capable of, they will look across the channel a bit more than they usually do, and the national team will be strengthened by it. It will take time, though.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, damp squib said:

It's the opposite. There are more Kiwis playing professional RL than any time in history. According to the French posters on this site, if Catalans hadn't entered SL Rugby League would no longer exist in France.

Thanks to both the big money on offer and high profile of the NRL and the Warriors inclusion into said competition RL can compete with Union for the top rugby talent coming out of NZ. Hopefully this can be replicated in super league for the French.

[damp squib]

2 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

Thanks - yes, for the top 25/30 plus players that can represent the Kiwis the Warriors could be seen as a success.

Some have gone straight from juniors in NZ direct to scholarship/junior sides in the NRL but that does not progress the game 1% in NZ itself overall

A few more people may wear Warriors and NRL shirts around the place, but we have to think of the other levels and not just the peak of the pyramid. And below the peak, it hasn't increased the talent pool nor participation?

Of course it has, RL has never been more popular in NZ. A strong domestic scene is never going to emerge in NZ because the NRL hoovers up all the talent there. There's no point in throwing money into a domestic comp for the leftovers. For RL you have to think of NZ as just another state in Australia.

[shaun mc]

6 minutes ago, damp squib said:

It's the opposite. There are more Kiwis playing professional RL than any time in history. According to the French posters on this site, if Catalans hadn't entered SL Rugby League would no longer exist in France.

Can't agree there. Converting 25 Kiwis from being basically part-time to then fulltime at NRL clubs isn't expansion. If you go from zero professional Kiwi players to 50, but at the bottom end 1,000 are no longer playing the game then its not expansion, its regression overall.

I'm posting this as your other replies are coming in, but both of you are concentrating on the top 1 - 5% and classing it as a success

I can't believe that posters think that developing the non-NRL level in NZ has 'no point' (and I'm not saying divert a lot of money there either) Its built on sand and elitist and can only go one way

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

Thanks - yes, for the top 25/30 plus players that can represent the Kiwis the Warriors could be seen as a success.

Some have gone straight from juniors in NZ direct to scholarship/junior sides in the NRL but that does not progress the game 1% in NZ itself overall

A few more people may wear Warriors and NRL shirts around the place, but we have to think of the other levels and not just the peak of the pyramid. And below the peak, it hasn't increased the talent pool nor participation?

I'm no expert on domestic RL in NZ but to the best of my knowledge the RL domestic scene in NZ before the Warriors was a basket case thanks to the failed professional lion red completion that lost money hand over fist for the NZRL.

[damp squib]

2 minutes ago, walter sobchak said:

I'm no expert on domestic RL in NZ but to the best of my knowledge the RL domestic scene in NZ was a basket case thanks to the failed professional lion red completion that lost money hand over fist for the NZRL.

Yep there wasn't much of a domestic scene to lose. NZ has gone from having a small, badly organised amateur RL scene, to a small, badly organised amateur RL scene with a hugely successful (off the pitch) NRL team drawing in tens of thousands of new fans to the game, bringing in the third highest profits in the NRL and generating a Kiwi team that broke the Australian hegemony on international RL. It's been an unqualified success. There's also a distinct possibility of a second team in Wellington or Christchurch in the not too distant future. If anything participation is way up because RL is now widely played in NZ schools.

The non-NRL level of RL in NZ is the Australian sub-NRL comps. So many Kiwis sign up for and are developed by Australian clubs at every level that it fulfills all the traditional functions of a domestic scene.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, damp squib said:

Yep there wasn't much of a domestic scene to lose. NZ has gone from having a small, badly organised amateur RL scene, to a small, badly organised amateur RL scene with a hugely successful (off the pitch) NRL team drawing in tens of thousands of new fans to the game, bringing in the third highest profits in the NRL and generating a Kiwi team that broke the Australian hegemony on international RL. It's been an unqualified success. There's also a distinct possibility of a second team in Wellington or Christchurch in the not too distant future. If anything participation is way up because RL is now widely played in NZ schools.

The non-NRL level of RL in NZ is the Australian sub-NRL comps. So many Kiwis sign up for and are developed by Australian clubs at every level that it fulfills all the traditional functions of a domestic scene.

Not only is there talk of a 2nd NZ NRL franchise but there's also talk of a 2nd NZ side entering the NSW cup thus exposing more kiwis to top level/2nd tier RL in Australia something which couldn't be achieved in the NZ RL domestic setup.

[kiwis 13 6]

NZ Warriors joining NRL & then union went professional not long after. Lion Red cup was set up at the time Warriors started but it divided provinces splitting Canterbury into 2 sides, Wellington into 2 sides & Auckland into four sides. Lion Red Cup lost a lot of money so it had to be wound up after a few years. Rugby league went back to having provincial rep sides selected from provincial club comps as top of the game. A few years later Batercard Cup national comp was created with one Canterbury provincial team, there were initially 2 wellington sides but that was replaced by one side, one of the richer Auckland clubs Mt Albert entered & other Auckland sides based around areas South, West & North Shore. It was decent comp but lacked crowd support & again lost the NZRL money & was wound up. 10 years now NZ local rugby league outside of Auckland Fox Memorial is totally amateur, although i heard that Canterbury may pay players when they play in the end of season NZRL Premiership tournament.

 

What this has to do with North America i dont know? I suppose the lesson is you really have to do your homework before chopping and changing formats. I still think a national semi pro comp could be a success in NZ & think the best format maybe for Stronger provinces like Canterbury, Wellington & Waikato to enter sides into a National comp with 4-6 top  Auckland Clubs. Provincial sides could be entered into Auckland Fox memorial... but you would have to step on a lot of toes to do that... somehing got to be done but the game in NZ needs any National comp to be a ongoing success this time...

[Yakstorm]

Before the Warriors participation in NZ was sub-20K. Now there are more than 40,000 players registered for junior and open age clubs.

Rugby League now has a presence in the school system (which are not included in the 40K), something that didn't exist pre-95 and has formed a strong relationship with NZ Touch (expect a partnership to be announced between the two bodies in future years).

Arguably there aremore people playing, watching and NZ companies investing in League since the Warriors came about. Surely that is deamed success? 

Now getting back to the topic, the RFL is not in a position to say no to the investment and attention some of these clubs will bring. Arguably there will be more people watching and taking interest in League One this year than ever before thanks to the Wolfpack and that will only pay dividends for the code later on.

For me the biggest battle in managing the requirements of the community clubs with the VC backed clubs.

West Wales, for example, is unlikely to ever make Super League, but will bring a much welcomed bunch of Welsh players into the talent pool which again helps grow the base and of course helps the Dragons. 

The Wolfpack is unlikely to suddenly add large numbers of Canadian and American players to the pro ranks, but brings significant investment and new potential partners and markets for the code. There will be a downstream effect with entities like the Wolverines to benefit from a wider audience being 'aware' of the code.

[kiwis 13 6]

Yakstrom Before the Warriors club comps in Auckland, Wellington & Christchurch were semi professional. When Warriors entered NRL in 95 NZ League was on a high after Oz league had been broadcast on free to air TV 3 times a week for several years. Number of players had rapidly risen to highest level ever 50k. In 2007 Warriors had been around for 12 years, NZRL was broke & under investigation for poker machine fraud, Kiwis lost 56-0 to Australia & England whitewashed us 3-0, playing numbers had sunk to 16k...things have since improved we have won world cup & several Four nations, playing numbers are now 30K. However talent seems to flow out of NZ and rarely comes back as beside Warriors the game offers little except participation for recreation, outside of a couple of Auckland clubs local game is now totally amateur. NZ Residents side only reestablished this year after a long time. Many of these factors are influenced either directly of indirectly by the Warriors so they have definitely been a mixed blessing to the local game in NZ up until this point...

 

North america well that is totally different deal altogether  

[Manfred Mann]

This development in north America has to be done slowly because of the lack of north American players. I like Eric Perez's idea of Montreal following Toronto into the British structure. But there has to be an active recruitment drive among north American rugby union players, and north American football college players who miss out on the NFL. Once these recruits learn the game of rugby league, and junior systems get going in Toronto and Montreal, we can think about Boston, New York, Florida and Philadelphia following in the footsteps of Toronto and Montreal.  They will eventually form the north American conference of the North Atlantic Super League. But they will have to  be majority north American player teams because there simply aren't enough quality English, Australian and New Zealand players to provide the majority of players in each north American team.

Some years after that perhaps a very wealthy entrepreneur can start to put together a realistic plan for a North American professional league, with perhaps Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, Denver, Phoenix, Cleveland, Washington, San Francisco, Seattle and Vancouver making up the other core franchises,.He will have to have a major TV network interested in televising the league, though that won't be a problem since Fox Sports (USA) will likely be interested, as may NBC and ABC.

[Mumby Magic]

A third Humberside team? Have I missed something?

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

A third Humberside team? Have I missed something?

City of Hull Academy were wanting a go in a similar way to Spanish Football Clubs B-Teams playing in their lower leagues.

[bowes]

10 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

A third Humberside team? Have I missed something?

Bishop Burton College 

[Adelaide Tiger]

I agree wth you MM.

IMHO many people on here are looking at the issue from the wrong perspective.  It SHOULD NOT be about teams from Montrreal, Philly, Moscow or wherever replacing existing SL teams the overall aim should be to create a conference style competition whereby teams that fulfill strict criteria can apply and join rather than jostle each other for promotion into a restrictive 12 team SL.

And what a delicious irony that because of RLs inability to grow professional teams across England and the UK that they have quite unexpectedly been offered the opportunity to grow a Northern Atlantic conference style competition which other sports such as football or RU are unable to follow because those sports have stronger, entrenched leagues.

So by default, poor leadership at the RFL, rank bad management by clubs, bigotry from RU and the media it has given RL an amazing opportunity to make a quantum leap ..... cue Scott Bakula and Ziggy.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, Manfred Mann said:

This development in north America has to be done slowly because of the lack of north American players. I like Eric Perez's idea of Montreal following Toronto into the British structure. But there has to be an active recruitment drive among north American rugby union players, and north American football college players who miss out on the NFL. Once these recruits learn the game of rugby league, and junior systems get going in Toronto and Montreal, we can think about Boston, New York, Florida and Philadelphia following in the footsteps of Toronto and Montreal. They will eventually form the north American conference of the North Atlantic Super League. But they will have to  be majority north American player teams because there simply aren't enough quality English, Australian and New Zealand players to provide the majority of players in each north American team.

Some years after that perhaps a very wealthy entrepreneur can start to put together a realistic plan for a North American professional league, with perhaps Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, Denver, Phoenix, Cleveland, Washington, San Francisco, Seattle and Vancouver making up the other core franchises,.He will have to have a major TV network interested in televising the league, though that won't be a problem since Fox Sports (USA) will likely be interested, as may NBC and ABC.

And that's why this system of playing in the British leagues could work better than any other in the medium term. There simply aren't the players to form a NA SL like people keep saying. It would flop like the union comp has. 

Going through the league system gives new athletes the chance at a lower level to try the game and adapt at a much easier level. You can't chuck them in SL and expect miracles. It gives new clubs the chance to play and adapt to the game against other clubs of a similar level. The build up stops the immediate "failure" tag hitting them if they go into SL and it's not what they expected.

You can't just create a new league and expect 8-10 clubs to have a quality competition when you don't even have 1 club of quality and don't even have one group of homegrown athletes. It needs to stop being suggested.