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Hemel Stags

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54 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Are Hemel not competitive or is the league too big?

Is it fair semi pro clubs are playing pro clubs in Toulouse and Toronto?

Should League1 be split in 2?

Simple answers as far as I see it.

Hemel are not competitive plain and simple, and the other "expansion" teams let in a few years back are moving forward by being in the league. 

Yes its fair because they have to come through the league system, and they are one single game, Hemel are not competitive against other semi pro and even expansion teams. 

if it were how would you split it so it didn't become Heartlands vs expansion and then how does that work for driving the game in new areas and them improving?

 

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2 hours ago, Dr Tim Whatley said:

I've not managed to go to a Hemel game yet this season - more to do with family commitments than any sort of protest at what has gone on - but I am almost nervous about what it'll be like at the Keighley game. The atmosphere has been pretty bleak at Pennine Way for a while and while I'm sure the away fans will make some noise I'm not expecting to see too many familiar faces.

I'll be giving it a swerve. My daughter's birthday that day and no child deserves the 2017 Hemel Stags as a present. The Good Friday El Classico still very much on the cards though - we'll give them Skolars one hellllllll of a beating (or not). Broncos playing earlier versus Toulouse also a tempter

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I am not an expert on this subject so this is apropros of nothing.

As Bob8 says, your priorities are different for pro and amateur teams, especially when you're on a budget like they are.  Hemel have essentially gutted everything, just to be a semi-pro side.

Essentially, what needs to be in place when a team goes semi-pro is an infrastructure to continue the work you did as an amateur club.  So, dedicate a development officer or even some keen volunteers to help get other teams up and running.  However, from what I was told, they still have issues with St Albans when they should be trying to get Cents on board with them.  It's not like there are a bunch of juniors clubs popping up in places like Berkhamsted or Chorleywood with Hemel's backing/blessing.  There's literally nothing.  So you've taken away the pinnacle of a development system AND the development system itself and replaced it with nothing.  Then you moan about a talent shortage.  It's actually so idiotic, it's depressing.

Their big weakness - their geography - could also be a big strength when it comes to developing a feeder system.  Realistically, their catchment area is perhaps South Bucks, Chiltern Hills, West Herts and South Beds including Luton.  Only Luton could be considered big.  Watford is just over 100,000.  However, all these towns are distinct from each other with their own identity.  It could actually be easier to sow the seeds of league in a network of towns rather than an amorphous conurbation like London.
 

As for the leagues, we all read the ideas behind dropping four teams when they change the leagues up.  We currently have 12-12-16.  The problem with splitting League 1 in half is difficult in itself.  There are complaints about playing teams more than twice in a league, playing them three or four times contributes to league staleness, as has been seen in Scottish football.  The alternative is an old favourite of mine, the "split division", which is similar to how they did the Cricket World Cup for years.  You split the division in two, play a double round robin within your group for 14 games.  Best teams from each group play off for promotion, which is exciting, but that leaves the rest playing against teams they've already played.

The real issue is that they probably need to go to 4 leagues of 12.  Where you get another eight teams from?  No idea.

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On 27/03/2017 at 3:36 PM, buford t justice said:

Unfortunately the RFL have expanded the game by allowing them in the league, but thats about as far as the plan goes, and there's no real assistance for them or any club outside SL going forward.

1

Over £16,400,000 is going into these clubs.......................... 

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32 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

The real issue is that they probably need to go to 4 leagues of 12.  Where you get another eight teams from?  No idea.

 
 

Allow NCL clubs to professionalise.

Woolston Rovers IIRC wanted to join the so called "pro"-ranks. Others are interested.

It's that easy only Hemel may well end up 48th. instead of 40th, they couldn't see off Kells in the cup last year,....

Edited by The Parksider

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On 25/03/2017 at 10:28 PM, Forestgravy said:

It is still early days but they need to put more effort into selling themselves, I don't know why they don't rename themselves the Hertfordshire Stags or something to try and attract St Albans and Watford folk as well, that's quite a big population of people in that area.

 

On 26/03/2017 at 11:29 AM, Hopping Mad said:

Nobody, wherever they live in Herts, is going to pay to watch a team that poor.

As a fan of St Albans, I find it tempting to go watch a Hemel team that poor


Check out upcoming international fixtures and highlights of past matches at http://rlfixtures.weebly.com

 

St Albans Centurions International Liaison Officer and former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

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23 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

It seems like Hemel have boxed themselves into a corner with the Dewsbury 'experiment' (for want of a better term).

The idea of partnering with Dewsbury seemed to be predicated on the idea that they didn't have enough Southern-based players to make them competitive. The media guy was on the League 1 podcast last week saying that, and how they had been getting beaten by '70 or even 80 points' last season. Well, last Saturday was 82-0, so they appear to have got even worse

Add in the fact that the whole team is bussed from Dewsbury to play in front of less than 100 spectators (as it would seem they've alienated a portion of their pre-existing supporter based) and it's not hard to see that, whilst the move might have had good intentions, it looks like its backfired badly.

I don't honestly see where they go from here. If they plough on with their current model they are probably going to struggle to even finish the season, but how could they now go back to a local model? It doesn't augur well...

As everybody except the dozen people on the Hemel board were saying would happen when it was announced

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Check out upcoming international fixtures and highlights of past matches at http://rlfixtures.weebly.com

 

St Albans Centurions International Liaison Officer and former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

Moderator of the International board

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4 hours ago, bbfaz said:

However, from what I was told, they still have issues with St Albans when they should be trying to get Cents on board with them.  

I'd be interested to hear more about this ?

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9 hours ago, bbfaz said:

I am not an expert on this subject so this is apropros of nothing.

As Bob8 says, your priorities are different for pro and amateur teams, especially when you're on a budget like they are.  Hemel have essentially gutted everything, just to be a semi-pro side.

Essentially, what needs to be in place when a team goes semi-pro is an infrastructure to continue the work you did as an amateur club.  So, dedicate a development officer or even some keen volunteers to help get other teams up and running.  However, from what I was told, they still have issues with St Albans when they should be trying to get Cents on board with them.  It's not like there are a bunch of juniors clubs popping up in places like Berkhamsted or Chorleywood with Hemel's backing/blessing.  There's literally nothing.  So you've taken away the pinnacle of a development system AND the development system itself and replaced it with nothing.  Then you moan about a talent shortage.  It's actually so idiotic, it's depressing.

Their big weakness - their geography - could also be a big strength when it comes to developing a feeder system.  Realistically, their catchment area is perhaps South Bucks, Chiltern Hills, West Herts and South Beds including Luton.  Only Luton could be considered big.  Watford is just over 100,000.  However, all these towns are distinct from each other with their own identity.  It could actually be easier to sow the seeds of league in a network of towns rather than an amorphous conurbation like London.
 

As for the leagues, we all read the ideas behind dropping four teams when they change the leagues up.  We currently have 12-12-16.  The problem with splitting League 1 in half is difficult in itself.  There are complaints about playing teams more than twice in a league, playing them three or four times contributes to league staleness, as has been seen in Scottish football.  The alternative is an old favourite of mine, the "split division", which is similar to how they did the Cricket World Cup for years.  You split the division in two, play a double round robin within your group for 14 games.  Best teams from each group play off for promotion, which is exciting, but that leaves the rest playing against teams they've already played.

The real issue is that they probably need to go to 4 leagues of 12.  Where you get another eight teams from?  No idea.

All quite true...

Couple of points....

League1 clubs dont play twice so no current worries about 3 -4 times yet...

As for additional clubs league1 ran with 9 clubs in the past and worked upto the current number (with some relegations)

You could theoretically run with 2 tens so only 4 clubs needed Manchester have applied and seem a good application 

Noise from Canada is another franchise i think this would be way too early but can appreciate the need of an additional Canadian side for a derby and tv contract as one side would always be at home etc....

The French also want a third team in the English leagues...

There also has to be a couple of ambitious amateur clubs? 

Maybe the RFL could help an expansion club be promoted/created?

Or the league could run with a ten and an 8 with Manchester and A nother...

8 home and away is 16 games + cup games.. good season?

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16 games is insufficient.  You could argue the current 20/21 (plus playoffs) is probably about right.

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The problem with increasing the number of teams in League 1 (or a League 1 and 2) is the £70,000 club payment. Where does the extra £280-560,000 come from?

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 League one should be split into two conferences, a northern conference and a  something conference, eight teams in each.  Each  conference team plays the other teams in their own conference twice, that is 14 games.  They then play the teams from the other conference once that is eight games, making 22 games in total.  The benefit of this is that, with the southern conference teams playing each other twice, they don't have to travel so much, and don't have to play the powerful northern teams as much.

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3 hours ago, damp squib said:

The problem with increasing the number of teams in League 1 (or a League 1 and 2) is the £70,000 club payment. Where does the extra £280-560,000 come from?

It doesn't come from anywhere.

You make a great point.The idea that more and more small clubs should be created and funded until we have a fourth division playing to an ever decreasing standard below Amateurs makes no sense whatsover.

The noises from the RFL were IIRC more of a cull than an increase, and I'd guess Superleague can't be impressed when £16,000,000 has gone to support failure.

Additional monies to CC clubs was never TV fees, it was to try to stimulate some growth and get these clubs climbing the ladder and using the money to improve and put pressure on the top clubs and be competitive in the play offs for promotion.

It was money to support the new league structure that apparently allowed clubs to build and rise to Superleague.

That structure is a dead duck and therefore funding it will also be a dead duck soon, so a lot of clubs outside SL could be in a heck of a lot trouble especially if we went back to Licensing and the future funding allocations in years 4 & 5 of the current contract withdrew a lot of that money to support SL which is only going back to how it was a few short years ago.

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13 hours ago, yipyee said:

As for additional clubs league1 ran with 9 clubs in the past 

You could theoretically run with 2 tens so only 4 clubs needed Manchester have applied and seem a good application 

Noise from Canada is another franchise, The French also want a third team in the English leagues...There also has to be a couple of ambitious amateur clubs? 

Maybe the RFL could help an expansion club be promoted/created?

The RFL are the last people that can afford to be "developing" the alleged pro-game at the very bottom reaches of the League.

The RFL were the ones to adopt the policy of putting all the money into Superleague and have probably gone too far in giving away £16M to the Championships, money Superleague clubs will be set to argue they should have through people like Foster and Draper.

You may want to argue CC1 and a CC2 would be the "roots of the game" but they are clearly not.

The NCL run first teams, reserves and kids teams at all ages. They are the roots of the game and they can give any CC1 a game and every CC2 club a game - probably a hiding?

So why create all these so called "professional" clubs who aren't professional at all and have all on to put just one team out, and then have to borrow Dewsbury fringe players etc.

Edited by The Parksider

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2 hours ago, Jim from Oz said:

 League one should be split into two conferences, a northern conference and a  something conference, eight teams in each. The benefit of this is that, with the southern conference teams playing each other twice, they don't have to travel so much, and don't have to play the powerful northern teams as much.

The problem is allowing southern teams to avoid hidings from northern teams who aren't themselves at times as good as amateurs, won't do anything to take these clubs forward and therefore take the game forward.

It's pointless wasting money trying to prop up all these so called pro clubs which they aren't.

The SL concept was less clubs with more money, the stuff above turns that concept on it's head.

The proposals for SL1996 involved 21 clubs being put into SL through several mergers and the other 11 could (I assume, it was never said) have their own feeder league.

Now we are getting all excited about 36 clubs existing outside SL in three divisions and all being subsidised by money the SL clubs are desperate for....No chance?

Edited by The Parksider

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3 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

The question comes back to which NCL teams would play in a pro league?

None because the RFL did not want Woolston Rovers a Warrington side setting up alongside Warrington. What was the point?

So no Siddal won't be allowed to turn professional and become Halifax's second professional club bang next door to Halifax who are struggling. Three clubs in Calder doesn't work so  Lock Lane and Fev Lions making five won't help there?

We have the nonsense of two clubs in Wigan now so forget Leigh Miners and Wigan St. Pats joining the RFL.

The amateurs in the NCL are one of the great prides of the game. Turn any one professional and it will destroy them as all the money will go on the first team and they will become the shells of clubs many of the so called pro clubs sadly are......

It's time for this nonsense to stop, culling clubs not up to standard will come, they may not do that directly but they will do it when the massive funding they got from Solly gets cut, and Draper is reviewing funding issues right now.

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On ‎25‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 10:28 PM, Forestgravy said:

It is still early days but they need to put more effort into selling themselves, I don't know why they don't rename themselves the Hertfordshire Stags or something to try and attract St Albans and Watford folk as well, that's quite a big population of people in that area.

But they have to sell themselves.  Last season at one of the St Albans games I got chatting to a 'new face' watching the game.  Local man from St Albans with two boys, likes all forms of rugby and came down to watch.  He said he would like to see a higher level of rugby but didn't fancy going into London to watch Skolars/Broncos.  I told him about Hemel in League 1 and he said he had never heard of them and didn't know they played rugby league there - and that is only ten miles away from St Albans.  If someone living in the next town hasn't heard of them, what chance the whole of Hertfordshire.

On another tack about development, when I got involved with St Albans in the early noughties we had our own development officer.  An Australian lad who absolutely loved his rugby and could connect with the kids.  He linked up with the Hemel development officer and they set up the Chiltern Junior League - 2 teams from St Albans, 1 from Hatfield, three from Hemel and one from Aylesbury.  Seven teams in, I think, two  age groups.  Not only that, but with the help of committee members and players, both development officers  went into their junior and senior schools to run lunchtime and after school rugby league clubs and Saturday matches.  ( In St Albans case, It was an amazing success, I was approached by a school teacher I know who wanted to know if all the junior schools in Hatfield stopped playing inter school football, could we as a club teach and run an inter school  rugby league league  instead.  We were also approached by numerous senior schools from Potters Bar, Watford and Welwyn Garden City who all wanted the development officer to come into their schools to teach and play rugby league.  The demand far outstripped the resources.  We also noticed a drip down effect in that our seniors were getting bigger crowds of juniors and parents to watch. I believe we approached the RFL with all this information and asked for another development officer to help out at Hemel and St Albans. Unfortunately shortly after, funding was withdrawn from our development officer - and numerous others -  and we lost him.)  Very slowly, as we could not keep up with demand, schools began to drop away.  Now we have three very good volunteers running our three junior teams at U11, U13 and U15 level, but apart from these three volunteers we don't get into schools much any more.   I think the point I am trying to make as far as Hemel/Herts development is concerned, that there is the demand for rugby league down here, but you have to spend money on a few more development officers to help support the clubs.

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Jam Eater  1.(noun. jam eeter) A Resident of Whitehaven or Workington. Offensive.  It is now a term of abuse that both towns of West Cumbria use for each other especially at Workington/Whitehaven rugby league derby matches.

St Albans Centurions Website 

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6 minutes ago, Exiled Townie said:

But they have to sell themselves.  Last season at one of the St Albans games I got chatting to a 'new face' watching the game.  Local man from St Albans with two boys, likes all forms of rugby and came down to watch.  He said he would like to see a higher level of rugby but didn't fancy going into London to watch Skolars/Broncos.  I told him about Hemel in League 1 and he said he had never heard of them and didn't know they played rugby league there - and that is only ten miles away from St Albans.  If someone living in the next town hasn't heard of them, what chance the whole of Hertfordshire.

On another tack about development, when I got involved with St Albans in the early noughties we had our own development officer.  An Australian lad who absolutely loved his rugby and could connect with the kids.  He linked up with the Hemel development officer and they set up the Chiltern Junior League - 2 teams from St Albans, 1 from Hatfield, three from Hemel and one from Aylesbury.  Seven teams in, I think, two  age groups.  Not only that, but with the help of committee members and players, both development officers  went into their junior and senior schools to run lunchtime and after school rugby league clubs and Saturday matches.  ( In St Albans case, It was an amazing success, I was approached by a school teacher I know who wanted to know if all the junior schools in Hatfield stopped playing inter school football, could we as a club teach and run an inter school  rugby league league  instead.  We were also approached by numerous senior schools from Potters Bar, Watford and Welwyn Garden City who all wanted the development officer to come into their schools to teach and play rugby league.  The demand far outstripped the resources.  We also noticed a drip down effect in that our seniors were getting bigger crowds of juniors and parents to watch. I believe we approached the RFL with all this information and asked for another development officer to help out at Hemel and St Albans. Unfortunately shortly after, funding was withdrawn from our development officer - and numerous others -  and we lost him.)  Very slowly, as we could not keep up with demand, schools began to drop away.  Now we have three very good volunteers running our three junior teams at U11, U13 and U15 level, but apart from these three volunteers we don't get into schools much any more.   I think the point I am trying to make as far as Hemel/Herts development is concerned, that there is the demand for rugby league down here, but you have to spend money on a few more development officers to help support the clubs.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Have you considered crowd funding or sponsorship of a development officer?  The latter is something that works very well in racing, private people (as opposed to businesses) own a share of a racehorse as they like to support the sport, it gives them something to follow and they also get updates on its progress. I'd pay for a % if there was something similar in rugby league. 

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19 minutes ago, Cowardly Fan said:

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Have you considered crowd funding or sponsorship of a development officer?  The latter is something that works very well in racing, private people (as opposed to businesses) own a share of a racehorse as they like to support the sport, it gives them something to follow and they also get updates on its progress. I'd pay for a % if there was something similar in rugby league. 

This year I have taken a step back from the committee, not left, just not doing as much, the crowd funding is a great idea CF and one I will bring up at the next committee meeting. Cheers.


Jam Eater  1.(noun. jam eeter) A Resident of Whitehaven or Workington. Offensive.  It is now a term of abuse that both towns of West Cumbria use for each other especially at Workington/Whitehaven rugby league derby matches.

St Albans Centurions Website 

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4 hours ago, bbfaz said:

The question comes back to which NCL teams would play in a pro league?

In the most recent BBC Rugby League podcast the chairman of the NCL mentioned 5-6 clubs who are interested but didn't name them. What was notable to me was that he kept returning to a single point in his argument for allowing these clubs to get promoted - the £70,000. He was basically complaining that's it's unfair for Coventry to receive this money ahead of [insert heartlands amateur club here] who are better on the pitch.

While I sympathize with any amateur club struggling for funds, the League 1 expansion teams are being funded for a very specific purpose - to provide a professional outlet for players who would be otherwise be unable to play at that level due to their distance from the heartlands teams. It's the system that brought through Ben Flower, Dan Sarginson etc. who would have otherwise been lost to the game. Funding an additional professional team in an area that already has one is a waste of money as any player good enough for the professional ranks will have been picked up by the multitude of pro clubs on their doorstep.

I was very disappointed that Brian Noble agreed with him on the podcast as it seems to go counter to everything else he was arguing regarding expansion, franchising etc. 

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I think there has to be a convention where for every two expansion clubs, there's an element of consolidation too.  Expansion isn't just expansion outside the footprint but inside it too to a certain extent.

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1 hour ago, damp squib said:

In the most recent BBC Rugby League podcast the chairman of the NCL mentioned 5-6 clubs who are interested but didn't name them. What was notable to me was that he kept returning to a single point in his argument for allowing these clubs to get promoted - the £70,000. He was basically complaining that's it's unfair for Coventry to receive this money ahead of [insert heartlands amateur club here] who are better on the pitch.

While I sympathize with any amateur club struggling for funds, the League 1 expansion teams are being funded for a very specific purpose - to provide a professional outlet for players who would be otherwise be unable to play at that level due to their distance from the heartlands teams. It's the system that brought through Ben Flower, Dan Sarginson etc. who would have otherwise been lost to the game. Funding an additional professional team in an area that already has one is a waste of money as any player good enough for the professional ranks will have been picked up by the multitude of pro clubs on their doorstep.

I was very disappointed that Brian Noble agreed with him on the podcast as it seems to go counter to everything else he was arguing regarding expansion, franchising etc. 

Ben Flower? They must be proud.


- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

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Just found out Hemel Stags League 1 is a separate ltd company. Hemel Stags a amateur RL own the ground and the facilities. It is the amateur club that pay for 2 full time community coaches n 2 party time coach's,  coaching primary n secondary schools in Hemel n now coaching in St Albans. Seems to me what ever happens on the pro side, the amateur is very strong. The club house is open 7 days week always having functions over the weekend n the separate bar open with sky.How many clubs have this sort of operation? 

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10 hours ago, The Parksider said:

The RFL are the last people that can afford to be "developing" the alleged pro-game at the very bottom reaches of the League.

The RFL were the ones to adopt the policy of putting all the money into Superleague and have probably gone too far in giving away £16M to the Championships, money Superleague clubs will be set to argue they should have through people like Foster and Draper.

You may want to argue CC1 and a CC2 would be the "roots of the game" but they are clearly not.

The NCL run first teams, reserves and kids teams at all ages. They are the roots of the game and they can give any CC1 a game and every CC2 club a game - probably a hiding?

So why create all these so called "professional" clubs who aren't professional at all and have all on to put just one team out, and then have to borrow Dewsbury fringe players etc.

In answer..

Where's your proof NCL clubs are better than C1 clubs? 

They may win the odd one off game but a full season is a marathon...

You say so called pro clubs yet the NCL refuses to be national...and refuses to allow P&R.... how not so flap cap!!

How can a National league not be national lol

Now some teams in league 1 dont want destination SL ! They just want to exsist in a semi pro environment and grow organically! 

Its a strange league as it has several teams all with differing goals and remits!

What is hunslets aim in this league? If as you say  siddel shouldn't be in a semi pro league as they would rival Fax then Hunslet shouldn't  either?

I dont agree with that and i dont think many others do...

 

It boils back down to if siddal wants to pay semi pro wages and compete slightly higher it would not effect Halifaxs goal of competing in the championship, and getting promoted!

Maybe its the thought of Hunslet sliding further away from SL and into bramley territory thats upserring the flat cappers?

Edited by yipyee

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