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Ireland Not Qualifying Travesty


OMEGA

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48 minutes ago, eal said:

So with 4 groups of 4, how should it be structured? Two super groups with the top 3 qualifying and then two lesser groups with only the group winners qualifying? It is tricky to know what format is best, although I am certain that dividing up the big three into different groups is not the answer.

Group A
Australia
Tonga
Ireland
United States

Group B
England
New Zealand
Scotland
Wales

Group C
Fiji
Lebanon
France
Qualifier

Group D
Papua New Guinea
Samoa
Italy
Qualifier

The whole point of having 4 groups of 4 would be to get 2 qualifying from each group. 

Group A

Australia,Fiji,Ireland and Wales

Group B

NZ,Samoa,Scotland and France

Group C

England,PNG,USA and Canada

Group D

Tonga,Lebanon,Italy and Cook Islands 

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Im not sure there is another European nation knocking on the door to be honest.

By 2021 there will hopefully be 8 pro nations (England, France, Canada, US, Australia, Fiji, PNG and NZ) who should get a spot (though i would argue for everyone to qualify it seems too late now) which leaves another 8 spots to qualify.

Id give two spots to samoa and tonga, and the 3 to the home nations. Which leaves 3 from Jamaica, Cook Islands, Italy, Serbia, Russia, Spain, Lebanon and South Africa. Two groups of 4, top of each gets a shot and a play off between the 2nd place nations.

Then who else would be? NA doesn't deserve 3 teams qualifying and all the Pacific teams will be automatically qualified for reaching the quarters. So essentially that means the Cook Islands will also be automatically qualified on the basis of having no one to play. Pacific having 7 auto qualified teams seems extremely unfair. 

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12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well hopefully the US will have joined Canada in our system so they will be pro nations by then aswell as building towards 2025.

Id just have a world qualifying comp. 3 spaces to the best of Jamaica, Spain, Russia, Serbia, Cooks, Lebanon, South Africa whoever else wants to give it a shot (if its more than that 8 have pre-qualifying)

Scotland, Ireland, France and the USA will all need to go through qualification. Yes France should have to. 

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

For what reason? Im not against countries qualifying, i think everyone should not least so we make them play. But why make some nations qualify and not others?

And why divide it up in to areas? if Jamaica, US and Canada are all better than Lebanon and South Africa, why shouldnt all three be in?

If we are picking which nations are in, lets pick the best nations for commercial and development reasons. If we arent great let the best teams qualify.

Why should they get automatic? Only quarter finalists are given automatic qualification. 

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Why give it to the quarter finalists. Makes it even worse to see Ireland not go through and not qualify whilst Samoa and Lebanon do.

As i say, im not against qualification, im just asking what we gain from asking some nations to qualify and some not and why its harder for some to qualify that for others.

I wouldn't, but that's who the RLIF decided. In an ideal world, only the hosts and champions would get automatic qualification. 

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I'd go 2 Super Groups again and 2 weaker groups. You need some competitive games.

However, I'd tweak qualification slightly.

Top two from Group A and B automatically through. Top of Group C and D also.

Most points 3rd place in A and B through.

Most points 2nd place in C and D through.

 

If this were implemented this year, Ireland would have gone through instead of Samoa. 

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7 hours ago, OMEGA said:

In a word, Availability

 If a one off Test/friendly 4Ns or World Cup is held in the Northern hemisphere then the majority if not all would be more likely to be available. Beyond that if Ireland want to conduct ‘in seasons training get together then it’s unlikely that NRL heritage players would be released.

I think in Scotland’s case we’ve seen how the loss of NRL. Based players effect a squad 

In Wales case, we’ve seen how the loss of SL based players affect their squad. It’s no different. 

Ireland have been unlucky but that’s the way the cookie crumbles 

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To ensure the Celtic nations put out the strongest teams outside World Cup years to ensure seeding is accurate are World Cups, have a GB Celts team that tours with GB, and plays the likes of PNG and the Pacific Island teams as part of GB Oz double headers, or in those nations. Will give the likes of LMS, McIllorum, Amor reason to stick with Ireland’s the year after and before World Cups (making their selection following year call contingent  on appearing year prior), and make the likes of White, Dudson, Flower and Evans actually turn out for Wales. Lebanon and Italy could have full strength teams to play PNG and the Pacific Nations as well to keep them strong,  and France could host those nations in New Caledonia. Build the concept of big competition every 2 years in preparation of an Inter Continental Cup in 2023.

 

The weakened Celtic Nations and an Elite 1 France team, along with home based Lebanon and Italy could play the likes of USA, Canada, Jamaica Serbia and Spain to strengthen those nations the year before World Cup qualifying. Have attractive expat nations play in North America and play some games in Llanelli and Galashiels to boost Wales and Scotland 

Canada

France 

Jamaica

 

USA

Ireland

Italy

 

Wales

Serbia

Spain

 

Lebanon

Scotland

Italy

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Teams were seeded according to world rankings and the better ranked nations pooled together in Groups A & B.

As a result, more teams from those two groups were given the opportunity to advance to the quarter finals. Winning in a weaker group was not considered to be as indicative of strength as pre-tournament ranking.

Obviously Ireland showed that that isn’t necessarily the case and the next World Cup will rectify that with four groups of four.

Hope that explains things.

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still a consequence of these eligibility rules. Ireland has to play all year with these same players and really develop rugby league in this country

www.fcl13.fr FCL XIII - Lezignan Corbieres Rugby League

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22 hours ago, OMEGA said:

How is it Ireland with 2 wins against Italy & Wales and a hard fought loss to an at Home PNG (4pts) don’t qualify while Samoa who were convincingly beaten by NZ & Tonga and only drew with a shot to bits and outclassed Scotland (1pt) go through to the quarter finals.

Surely someone should have anticipated this and organised a fairer way to decide the runner up spots.

I like the current system.

It is odd, that we essentially have a Plate competition in the first round, but previous world cups saw Australia and New Zealand play minnows, which did no-one any good.

Whle Ireland were impressive, it would be bold to claim they would have done as well as Samoa.  I would still see Samoa as the better team.

Maximus Decimus does a good job of showing the alternative.  The downsides for me would be not just the mismatches, but also (if this makes sense) thee lack of competitive matches.  Serbia against Canada would be interesting.  In orthodox seeded groups, both would go home losing every match.  

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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19 hours ago, Just Browny said:

I agree with the thrust of the thread. It isn't fair that Ireland have gone out with a 2-1 record, and conceivably they could have drawn last week and still they would have gone out. But it wouldn't have been fair, though, to compare their fixtures with those of, say, Lebanon or Samoa.

I would prefer:

Groups A and B: top two go through, and best third-place record. On that basis Samoa would have gone out, although arguably they would have tried a bit harder yesterday if they knew they not only had to win but beat Lebanon's record.

Groups C and D: top team goes through, and best second-place record.

On that basis Ireland progress and Samoa would have gone out, although arguably they would have tried a bit harder yesterday if they knew they not only had to win but beat Lebanon's record.

 

12 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I'd go 2 Super Groups again and 2 weaker groups. You need some competitive games.

However, I'd tweak qualification slightly.

Top two from Group A and B automatically through. Top of Group C and D also.

Most points 3rd place in A and B through.

Most points 2nd place in C and D through.

 

If this were implemented this year, Ireland would have gone through instead of Samoa. 

Good idea. Come up with it yourself? :tongue:

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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Have to say I am not 100% sure I understand the argument anymore. 

I get the reason behind "super groups" and "weaker groups" but this tournament seems to have shown up that if you are wanting an "extended" tournament then you are going to get some proper drubbings no matter what you do. 

I am not sure when you label groups "Super groups" one team having 50 and then 70 points put on them is a very good show for a "super group team". Teams in "Weaker groups" are equally getting humped by the better team in the "weaker" group. 

I honestly dont think there would have been much difference if you had had an open draw based on seedings. Scotland, Wales and USA have all been pretty poor in this tournament by way of results.

IF we get more international RL and the seedings are more accurate maybe that will help build these "super groups" etc but in reality we need to realise that as much as you try and make them not happen drubbings will happen and at least if they happen in a normal tournament you dont get accusations being thrown around of "thought that was a weaker group look how sh*t international RL is" or "thats supposed to be a strong group and one of the best nations in the world has just had 70 points put on them... there's only 3 international teams in RL"

4 groups of 4 and accept that someone will get a hiding (Brazil lost 7-1 to Germany in a world cup semi final at home in football.. they happen from time to time).. Get some proper structure to international RL imbetween and it will grow a bit more.

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If you start adding Serbia and Canada in the scope for drunbings in super groups is much higher.  If drubbings are going to be dished out in groups A and B, its better for me it happens to the likes of Ireland, Scotland and Italy. Fiji are getting stronger and hopefully a NSW Cup team from next season will add to that. Get PNG and Fiji in the top groups where they can be competitive, and let France and Wales rack up some wins against smaller nations in c and D before a big game win the quarters. Give them some positive news at the World Cup

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14 minutes ago, JoneslessBishop said:

If you start adding Serbia and Canada in the scope for drunbings in super groups is much higher.  If drubbings are going to be dished out in groups A and B, its better for me it happens to the likes of Ireland, Scotland and Italy. Fiji are getting stronger and hopefully a NSW Cup team from next season will add to that. Get PNG and Fiji in the top groups where they can be competitive, and let France and Wales rack up some wins against smaller nations in c and D before a big game win the quarters. Give them some positive news at the World Cup

Indeed.

The upset is because Ireland did well, but were out.  Under a different system, they are likely to have been thumped and then go out.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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1 hour ago, JoneslessBishop said:

If you start adding Serbia and Canada in the scope for drunbings in super groups is much higher.  If drubbings are going to be dished out in groups A and B, its better for me it happens to the likes of Ireland, Scotland and Italy. Fiji are getting stronger and hopefully a NSW Cup team from next season will add to that. Get PNG and Fiji in the top groups where they can be competitive, and let France and Wales rack up some wins against smaller nations in c and D before a big game win the quarters. Give them some positive news at the World Cup

But Wales were given an "easier route" this time around and still got hammered left right and centre so where is the positive to take from it?

 What seems to be seen as the way forward is really shuffling the deckchairs on the titanic which is to have the same system but different teams in it. Until we can get proper seedings which means proper international calendars then I dont see how a "super group" can possibly work (unless it is basically the four nations, but then one of the top 4 doesnt get through but the 5th or 6th best does).. no matter how you shake it it isnt fair as far as I can see it. 

Run it like a normal world cup. even number of teams to groups (whatever that may be.. some teams will miss out but that is the way it goes.. look at Italy maybe not qualifying for a football world cup, in RL it would be rigged now to make sure they did).. seed them in pots 1, 2, 3 and so on then draw from pot 1 then 2 then 3 to have in the group.. some groups will be stronger, some weaker and there will be upsets and drubbings.. thats the way of it.. same in any sport to be fair.

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It was somewhat harsh on the Irish team, but the rules were known before a ball was kicked.

For a sixteen team competition in 2021, changes do need to be made. I'd go with a kind of two-tiered WC.

Four pools of four, with pools A & B consisting of the eight strongest nations (Australia, NZ, England, Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, PNG and one from Ireland/Lebanon/France), and pools C & D made up from the remainder/qualifiers.

Quarter-Finalists would be the first and second placed teams in A & B, and the four winners of the repechages between the bottom two in each of A & B and the top two in C & D. You'd need to fit in an extra round of four matches between the Group stage and the Q-Fs, but it's perfectly possible to do. 

Had the repechages been in place this year, they may have looked something like;

Samoa vs Italy

Scotland vs Fiji

Lebanon vs Ireland

France vs PNG

With one (probable) exception they'd have been close games.

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twelve team world cup with league ladder fixture formular where top 8 make quarters 1st v 8th 2nd v 7th 3rd v 6th 4th v 5th

  B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3
A1 A1 V B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V D3
A2 XXXXXXX A2 V B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A2 V C3 A2 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
A3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V B3 A3 V C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V D2 XXXXXXX
B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B1 V C3 XXXXXXX B1 V D2 XXXXXXX
B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 VC1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 V D3
B3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B3 V C2 XXXXXXX B3 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C1 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C2 V D2 XXXXXXX
C3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C3 V D3

 

 

Chief Crazy Eagle

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27 minutes ago, superten said:

twelve team world cup with league ladder fixture formular where top 8 make quarters 1st v 8th 2nd v 7th 3rd v 6th 4th v 5th

  B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3
A1 A1 V B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V D3
A2 XXXXXXX A2 V B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A2 V C3 A2 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
A3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V B3 A3 V C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V D2 XXXXXXX
B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B1 V C3 XXXXXXX B1 V D2 XXXXXXX
B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 VC1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 V D3
B3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B3 V C2 XXXXXXX B3 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C1 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C2 V D2 XXXXXXX
C3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C3 V D3

 

 

WTF

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Why not just seed the semifinalists, make  everyone else qualify and pull from a bowl the nations for each group? You can put certain nations in certain selection pools so you don't end up with a group of death as it doesn't seem that the sport is ready for that yet but pre qualifying half the tournament 4 years in advance is ridiculous.

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Maybe I am being reactionary, but given N Hemisphere tier 2 nations were competitive in the autumnal Northern Hemisphere 2013 World Cup, and Southern Hemisphere teams fat stronger this time out, maybe pools should be organised accordingly. Add to that PNGs development due to the Hunters, and hopefully similarly Fiji from 2019,  and weaker teams like Canada and Serbia should qualify next time out, a more structured approach can be implemented. Stronger mid-season programs prompted by the SOO standalone weekend can benefit S Hemisphere teams, and a SL restructure could mean the end of the Super 8s and thus a few more spaces for internationals in the northern hemisphere 

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17 hours ago, bobbruce said:

WTF

Quite simple you have 12 teams split into three pots then drawn into four groups. Lets say for example we take the best 12 teams from this world cup remember this is only an example . So the 12 teams are as follows Australia, England , New Zealand , Tonga they would be your pot one teams. Fiji , PNG , Samoa and Lebanon in pot twos. With Italy , Ireland , Scotland and France pot 3 teams. You draw one team from each pot into four groups . EG

Pool A1 Australia , A2 PNG, A3 Italy

Pool B1 New Zealand , B2 Fiji , B3 France

Pool C1 England , C2 Samoa , C3 Ireland

Pool D1 Tonga , D2 Lebanon , D3 Scotland

  B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3
A1 A1 V B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V D3
A2 XXXXXXX A2 V B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A2 V C3 A2 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
A3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V B3 A3 V C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V D2 XXXXXXX
B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B1 V C3 XXXXXXX B1 V D2 XXXXXXX
B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 VC1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 V D3
B3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B3 V C2 XXXXXXX B3 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C1 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C2 V D2 XXXXXXX
C3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX

C3 V D3

  Follow the grid to see who plays who no groups just league ladder after three games where top 8 make quarters with team finishing 1st v 8th , 2nd v 7th 3rd v 6th ,  4th v 5th . Semis highest team left plays lowest team left with 2nd highest playing third highest winners of both make final . So if YOU were England for example you would play Tonga , Italy and Fiji. Scotland for example would play Australia , Fiji and Ireland . 

Chief Crazy Eagle

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1 hour ago, superten said:

Quite simple you have 12 teams split into three pots then drawn into four groups. Lets say for example we take the best 12 teams from this world cup remember this is only an example . So the 12 teams are as follows Australia, England , New Zealand , Tonga they would be your pot one teams. Fiji , PNG , Samoa and Lebanon in pot twos. With Italy , Ireland , Scotland and France pot 3 teams. You draw one team from each pot into four groups . EG

Pool A1 Australia , A2 PNG, A3 Italy

Pool B1 New Zealand , B2 Fiji , B3 France

Pool C1 England , C2 Samoa , C3 Ireland

Pool D1 Tonga , D2 Lebanon , D3 Scotland

  B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3
A1 A1 V B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V D3
A2 XXXXXXX A2 V B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A2 V C3 A2 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
A3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V B3 A3 V C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V D2 XXXXXXX
B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B1 V C3 XXXXXXX B1 V D2 XXXXXXX
B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 VC1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 V D3
B3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B3 V C2 XXXXXXX B3 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C1 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C2 V D2 XXXXXXX
C3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX

C3 V D3

  Follow the grid to see who plays who no groups just league ladder after three games where top 8 make quarters with team finishing 1st v 8th , 2nd v 7th 3rd v 6th ,  4th v 5th . Semis highest team left plays lowest team left with 2nd highest playing third highest winners of both make final . So if YOU were England for example you would play Tonga , Italy and Fiji. Scotland for example would play Australia , Fiji and Ireland . 

Err thanks for clearing that up. ?

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4 hours ago, superten said:

Quite simple you have 12 teams split into three pots then drawn into four groups. Lets say for example we take the best 12 teams from this world cup remember this is only an example . So the 12 teams are as follows Australia, England , New Zealand , Tonga they would be your pot one teams. Fiji , PNG , Samoa and Lebanon in pot twos. With Italy , Ireland , Scotland and France pot 3 teams. You draw one team from each pot into four groups . EG

Pool A1 Australia , A2 PNG, A3 Italy

Pool B1 New Zealand , B2 Fiji , B3 France

Pool C1 England , C2 Samoa , C3 Ireland

Pool D1 Tonga , D2 Lebanon , D3 Scotland

  B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3
A1 A1 V B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A1 V D3
A2 XXXXXXX A2 V B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A2 V C3 A2 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
A3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V B3 A3 V C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX A3 V D2 XXXXXXX
B1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B1 V C3 XXXXXXX B1 V D2 XXXXXXX
B2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 VC1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B2 V D3
B3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX B3 V C2 XXXXXXX B3 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C1 V D1 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
C2 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX C2 V D2 XXXXXXX
C3 XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX

C3 V D3

  Follow the grid to see who plays who no groups just league ladder after three games where top 8 make quarters with team finishing 1st v 8th , 2nd v 7th 3rd v 6th ,  4th v 5th . Semis highest team left plays lowest team left with 2nd highest playing third highest winners of both make final . So if YOU were England for example you would play Tonga , Italy and Fiji. Scotland for example would play Australia , Fiji and Ireland . 

dear god... you need to make it as simple as possible not as complicated as possible.. you've drawn the pools just having them play in the pools top of the pools goes through.

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