The game I love is dying before my eyes.............

[Therein73]

After today's debacle, not just the team's performance but more pointedly the showing by the officials, and the disgusting cheering by Halifax fans of an injured Dewsbury player, I am now convinced that this great game of ours is in its death throes........ That was the worst display of officiating I believe I have ever seen -- sheer incompetence by both the referee and the touchjudge on the North stand line in the first half......Our team selection requires some explanation for the fans to stay on board (those of us that are left, that is): WHY did we bring in Annakin and leave out our 'own' players Reilly and Everitt ??  Those two lads gave their all against TWP and then seemingly get ditched in favour of a Wakey 'guest'...... What did Potts do wrong last week ?? ........ Wasn't Michael Knowles in with a chance of returning this week ?? .......... This veil of secrecy is wearing damned thin -- someone else referred to it as the "Mushroom" syndrome........... but the "Mushroom" syndrome doesn't require unquestioned loyalty and financial support in return for being fed sh*t on a regular basis...........

These 'kid' referees have no understanding of the game -- they're like students: Clever, great in everything to do with theory and bl**dy useless when it comes to actually doing something that requires a modicum of common sense............. And the coaches don't help them....... We, every team  not just Dewsbury, are constantly trying to hoodwink them : slowing down the PTB, pinching the ball, creeping offside etc etc etc........Is it ANY wonder we can't get near the Aussies when we only play the game at half their pace. We could have the best sport in the world -- IF we could, or would, just play to the rules and play the game in the best spirit of sport............ I know, I need to get my head out of the clouds...........but why the hell should I ???   There has to be better ways of spending Sundays......... 

Watching Yorkshire put Nottinghamshire to the sword for example......................... I don't think, in all my years of involvement, have I left a game feeling so down and disheartened by the whole thing.....

And the ADM Security bunch: Don't get me started......those worthless morons insulted those in the South Stand today -- eight or more at all times, yet at times there were none to be seen at the scoreboard end.......... WHY ??.... Are they 'policing' the home fans only ??   Waste  of money and another needless blight on our sport........... 

[jamesb0551]

Sadly I agree with too much of this

biggest issue our game has is this obsession with slowing the ruck down, killing attacking play

[Ramite]

Policing the ruck can be tricky at a part time level , things tend to slow down more in the second half than in SL. Refs probably know it's happening but if they blow everytime they get blamed for not letting the game flow. 

As for the refs , I'd ask why aren't more people taking it up , ? Look at some of the amateur games to see the abuse they get. Then at SL level the abuse they take certainly on Twitter can get very personal.

 

I agree about clubs not helping though once one starts they all do it to pinch that 1%.

The odd thing about team selection not being released seems offer each week. We finally have a media team , who I must say do a good job , but seem to only get some information . I can't see any advantage , it's certainly not helping with points or frankly performances. It's obviously comes from NK. The squad we have isn't particularly big or full of star players. Can't see the logic.

As you mentioned cricket , they may have a new 100 ball competition potentially. Maybe we should have a sevens tournament in July/August or in place of reserves team as most don't have one anyway.

[Wakefield Ram]

Unfortunately the way the prize money is distributed in the Championship means league positions become a self-fulfilling prophesy as bigger budgets mean you finish higher meaning a bigger budget next season meaning you finish higher....and it also means teams dont commit to the Challenge Cup as they'd rather get knocked out and concentrate on the league.

[DOGFATHER]

13 hours ago, Therein73 said:

After today's debacle, not just the team's performance but more pointedly the showing by the officials, and the disgusting cheering by Halifax fans of an injured Dewsbury player, I am now convinced that this great game of ours is in its death throes........ That was the worst display of officiating I believe I have ever seen -- sheer incompetence by both the referee and the touchjudge on the North stand line in the first half......Our team selection requires some explanation for the fans to stay on board (those of us that are left, that is): WHY did we bring in Annakin and leave out our 'own' players Reilly and Everitt ??  Those two lads gave their all against TWP and then seemingly get ditched in favour of a Wakey 'guest'...... What did Potts do wrong last week ?? ........ Wasn't Michael Knowles in with a chance of returning this week ?? .......... This veil of secrecy is wearing damned thin -- someone else referred to it as the "Mushroom" syndrome........... but the "Mushroom" syndrome doesn't require unquestioned loyalty and financial support in return for being fed sh*t on a regular basis...........

These 'kid' referees have no understanding of the game -- they're like students: Clever, great in everything to do with theory and bl**dy useless when it comes to actually doing something that requires a modicum of common sense............. And the coaches don't help them....... We, every team  not just Dewsbury, are constantly trying to hoodwink them : slowing down the PTB, pinching the ball, creeping offside etc etc etc........Is it ANY wonder we can't get near the Aussies when we only play the game at half their pace. We could have the best sport in the world -- IF we could, or would, just play to the rules and play the game in the best spirit of sport............ I know, I need to get my head out of the clouds...........but why the hell should I ???   There has to be better ways of spending Sundays......... 

Watching Yorkshire put Nottinghamshire to the sword for example......................... I don't think, in all my years of involvement, have I left a game feeling so down and disheartened by the whole thing.....

And the ADM Security bunch: Don't get me started......those worthless morons insulted those in the South Stand today -- eight or more at all times, yet at times there were none to be seen at the scoreboard end.......... WHY ??.... Are they 'policing' the home fans only ??   Waste  of money and another needless blight on our sport........... 

Excellent post TI73. I was interested to read this by Brian McDermott. He makes some very good points along similar lines. I realise, you could read this as sour grapes after seeing his side beaten, as well as his team being one of the main culprits. Nevertheless, some good points.

http://www.totalrl.com/in-full-brian-mcdermotts-in-depth-transcript-about-how-games-are-being-refereed/

After Leeds’ defeat to Hull on Thursday night, Rhinos coach Brian McDermott addressed the media in relation to how he believes Super League games are being refereed at different stages of the year. Here, in full, is what the Leeds boss said.

McDermott: “I’ve got a little bit of a whinge going on. Too many possessions, whether someone is a team good or not, are decided by whether an opposition’s defence concedes a penalty. It’s like a big pantomime and I’m not saying it doesn’t happen at Headingley – it’s not just at Hull – because all the crowds bay for penalties.

“You never get to find out whether anyone is good in defence over three or four sets, and there’s never too much of an arm-wrestle in the games. You’re down there because of sometimes good offence, but a lot to do with penalties. When Hull get up and literally pick our defender up and throw him like they did with Richie Myler, I’m not sure what to tell him on Monday. And I thought we were on the end of some harsh calls which meant we were defending near our try-line for too long – but I thought we were outstanding near our try-line. We came in at half-time with more juice taken out of us than them.”

Question: What’s changed recently for this to happen, then?

McDermott: “I think it’s been in the game for a long time. I don’t have enough evidence and if you’re going to throw some numbers at me to contradict it then I’ll concede you’re right, but we just play a different game for the first two thirds of Super League than we do for the final third.

“When my team play in play-offs and finals, we get good at kicking the ball long and defending a set and having the ball kicked long to us. For the purists who love rugby league, it’s a great spectacle. Only the most unfit and mentally weak people break, but we never get to find that out now because referees blow a whistle for what is probably a penalty – if you’re going to look at the game with a microscope.

“If the opposition’s strategy is to throw them around while they’re attempting to play the ball, then I don’t have an answer for it.”

Question: What changes in the final third of the year?

McDermott: “Referees don’t award those penalties.”

Question: Why?

McDermott: “Ask the referees. I’m presuming the memo comes down saying we want a more free-flowing game.

“I’m not wrong on this and I’ll challenge anyone; Challenge Cup finals don’t have as many penalties in them. Semi-finals for play-offs don’t have as many penalties in them.

“The argument is that players have cleaned their act up. No they haven’t. Players still throw themselves around to try and get penalties, but this is an explanation about why we came in tired at half-time, not why we lost the game.”

Question: Have you expressed your concerns to (head of referees) Steve Ganson about the way games are being refereed?

McDermott: It’s beyond Steve Ganson.

Question: Have you expressed your concerns to anyone at the RFL?

McDermott: “Yeah, for ten years. I’m not here to say anything about the RFL; it’s not about that. I just think there’s a conversation to be had without accusing anyone of anything but.. are we the only sport where 12,000 people can control the outcome of someone’s offence? Does it happen at Leeds? Of course it has – it’s happened at Leeds for a long time, but not right now, because we don’t have a stand.

“Can you imagine it happening in boxing? Can you imagine it happening in football? I know the crowds are vocal in football but I don’t know if they control the tempo of the game so much. When you’ve got referees shaking their heads to the crowd, gesturing.. I’m not just being critical of (Thursday’s referee) Ben Thaler; he’s only refereeing to the criteria he’s been given – but when people are calling for a penalty and he’s saying ‘no’ to the crowd, we must be the only sport that talks to the crowd like that.

“We have a certain attitude that we want to be regarded as tough, and when the game gets tired, we talk about those scenarios; about when the game is tired, you be there for your mate. When there’s been no break in the game, no penalties been given, that’s when we find out who the tough teams are. That’s the version we play at the end of the year and the version we play in the internationals – but we spend two thirds of the year answering 12,000 people. That’s my gripe. Does it mean we lost? No, but I don’t get a platform to speak too often and I’m using it now. Credit to Hull, though.”

[RayCee]

When I watch he EPL, I see some howlers from the refs. Penalties given for the slightest pull or nudge, then a player gets a real shove and the ref waves it on. This isn't a RL issue, it’s a sporting issue. Players always looking for a penalty and pressuring the official to give something. At least in RL the players can’t crowd the  ref and even put their hands on him like in football. 

All I'm saying is RL is no worse than any other sport but in football everyone accepts it but in RL some people want to give up and walk away. 

[jamesb0551]

I'd like to see more common sense applied to the ruck. The defenders should be able to tackle the player to the ground or a standstill, the ref calls held, at that point the players should be moving off the tackled player, if still there the ref shouts held again after maybe 2 seconds at that point if no movement penalty. I'd also like to see players who are genuinely trying to clear the ruck not penalised sometimes players do get tangled and penaltys are given harshly. If the hooker throws the pass deliberately into a retreating defender ( as we've seen) I'd make them replay the play of the ball on offence one and just play on on offence two. For play acting from the player been tackled ie flopping back down when no pressure is being applied which happens all too often. I'd like to see the ref stop the game have a word with the player and tell them to get on with the game In a dignified and professional manner. And restart I think bearing in mind the loss of attacking impetus it would call would soon clean that up. Finally I would give players who have won penalties (been reviewed after on the video) by play acting a one match ban. Let's try and make the refs job easier if the players cut play acting and better rules around the ruck I think it would help the game enormously. If we can't sort it out we might aswell merge back with union cos our rucks are starting to look like there's ??

[Blind side johnny]

16 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Unfortunately the way the prize money is distributed in the Championship means league positions become a self-fulfilling prophesy as bigger budgets mean you finish higher meaning a bigger budget next season meaning you finish higher....and it also means teams dont commit to the Challenge Cup as they'd rather get knocked out and concentrate on the league.

I believe that Batley managed to show that such defeatism can be overcome. Without hope there cannot be any sport.

[Wakefield Ram]

3 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

I believe that Batley managed to show that such defeatism can be overcome. Without hope there cannot be any sport.

Batley did well a couple of years ago, but you are 7th, one place above us.

[distantdog]

Has BSJ crossed the great divide? What we did do was prove it can be done! 

[silverback]

2 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Batley did well a couple of years ago, but you are 7th, one place above us.

but in that last two years we have done a lot a little things right and its all coming together again, am quite happy with the way things are going. can you say the same cos from were i was sat yesterday you had maybe 6 players putting the hard work in, 2 that dident even want to be on the pitch, and you fell apart after 25 minutes by letting off steam at the ref for everything and anything at play a ball rather than cracking on with the game, you seem to have ended up with a few castoffs that are happy to do not a lot and get paid, we may only finish 6th or 7th but i know we  have that desire to just maybe nick a couple a scalps yet this season and to a man our boys put there bodys on the line game after game.

[Blind side johnny]

3 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Batley did well a couple of years ago, but you are 7th, one place above us.

"You", "You" - wash your mouth out with soap and water that man!!

[Wakefield Ram]

Silverback - had you watched the Toronto game you would have seen a much different performance. Batley and Dewsbury are both well-run financially but the disparity in central funds mean we are almost certain to finish 7/8th. The best we can hope for is to pick up the odd surprise win. But that's it and for me that's a poor situation. 

[Blind side johnny]

54 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Silverback - had you watched the Toronto game you would have seen a much different performance. Batley and Dewsbury are both well-run financially but the disparity in central funds mean we are almost certain to finish 7/8th. The best we can hope for is to pick up the odd surprise win. But that's it and for me that's a poor situation. 

As a mild philosophical exercise, if central funding was equally distributed throughout the division where would you anticipate us being?

[Old 49er]

Same position, same displays, same team, richer players (and Agents)

[silverback]

7 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Silverback - had you watched the Toronto game you would have seen a much different performance. Batley and Dewsbury are both well-run financially but the disparity in central funds mean we are almost certain to finish 7/8th. The best we can hope for is to pick up the odd surprise win. But that's it and for me that's a poor situation. 

i did along with a few batley fans, our game was saturday so came to see you perform, and as i said above your defence was great,set after set you kept them out  on the line but sheer size a some there lads took its toll in the end, but toronto game you looked lost in attack but fax game you threw ball about well but there were too many balls went astray or lost when it mattered, some a players are just going thru the motions and not putting anything like 100% in, one a your big lads were sat at back a me and by sounds a things wont put a dews shirt on again so sommats not right fella, am sure if you grab a couple a wins things will turn but have just been out all morning with a couple a long time dews fans and there well fed and think its same old same yet again so who knows,, thats best thing about our little old clubs it does taste mighty fine when you push one a the big time charlies on ft pay. all the best for rest a season.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

11 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

As a mild philosophical exercise, if central funding was equally distributed throughout the division where would you anticipate us being?

I don't believe the actual figures per finishing position have ever been published but, from what limited information is out there, equal distribution would give around £250k per (Championship) club compared to around £170k for finishing 8th (worth noting that an extra £80k or so is equivalent to an attendance increase of around 380 per game, assuming £15 entry charge). All but the previous season's top 4 would receive more than they do now, ranging from ca£50-100k with the top 4 losing between ca£150-300k.

Edit: New batteries in calculator

[Oxford]

So rumours of the game's demise were wildly exaggerated, then?

[Blind side johnny]

14 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

I don't believe the actual figures per finishing position have ever been published but, from what limited information is out there, equal distribution would give around £250k per (Championship) club compared to around £170k for finishing 8th (worth noting that an extra £80k or so is equivalent to an attendance increase of around 380 per game, assuming £15 entry charge). All but the previous season's top 4 would receive more than they do now, ranging from ca£50-100k with the top 4 losing between ca£150-300k.

Edit: New batteries in calculator

Thanks LTS. That assumes that the gross amount for distribution remains the same, of course, and doesn't diminish as some SL clubs are demanding.

My question to Wakefield Ram remains unanswered however.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

2 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

Thanks LTS. That assumes that the gross amount for distribution remains the same, of course, and doesn't diminish as some SL clubs are demanding.

My question to Wakefield Ram remains unanswered however.

Yes, a big assumption if some of the rumours are to be believed....

[Piggy's mate]

Perhaps the next negotiation will net enough for all to be happy 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

Some figures I knocked up after our game at Rochdale to show the disparity in incomes between the top and bottom of the Championship:

Fev are averaging 2400 from their 5 home league games so far this season compared to 550 (from the 4 games I can easily get figures for) for Rochdale -  an extra 1850 a game is £27.5k a game or £390k a season at £15 a go, not allowing for increased programme sales etc. As well as Fev owning their own ground, meaning that they make money from bars and food outlets, they also have income streams from outside of rugby (they own a large chunk of land surrounding the ground) and they got a considerably bigger central funding wedge than Rochdale did due to finishing 7th in the Middle 8s last year - probably an extra £200-300k. So just on crowds and central funding that's potentially getting on for £700k more income. Is the distribution from central funds fair? No. And to put it into perspective, Leigh probably received an extra £650k more than Fev, including their 'parachute' payment.

[Wakefield Ram]

9 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

Thanks LTS. That assumes that the gross amount for distribution remains the same, of course, and doesn't diminish as some SL clubs are demanding.

My question to Wakefield Ram remains unanswered however.

We would have a better chance of finishing higher. Fev and Halifax have better crowds but knock £180-300k off the budgets of the top 4 would create a much more level playing field. Sugar daddies aside we'd have much more income than London for example.

[Blind side johnny]

4 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

We would have a better chance of finishing higher. Fev and Halifax have better crowds but knock £180-300k off the budgets of the top 4 would create a much more level playing field. Sugar daddies aside we'd have much more income than London for example.

Well, maybe, but sugar daddies are keeping many clubs in this league going, including our own.

I'm not having a go but we all desperately hope that our own club can be up there with the most successful, yet the reality is that attendances and associated income don't support this ambition. As relatively poor individuals there is little that we can do to improve the situation so we hope that something or someone will ride to our rescue. It's a bit like buying lottery tickets - you might win but you most probably won't.

[moorside roughyed]

On 22/04/2018 at 8:38 PM, Therein73 said:

After today's debacle, not just the team's performance but more pointedly the showing by the officials, and the disgusting cheering by Halifax fans of an injured Dewsbury player, I am now convinced that this great game of ours is in its death throes........ That was the worst display of officiating I believe I have ever seen -- sheer incompetence by both the referee and the touchjudge on the North stand line in the first half......Our team selection requires some explanation for the fans to stay on board (those of us that are left, that is): WHY did we bring in Annakin and leave out our 'own' players Reilly and Everitt ??  Those two lads gave their all against TWP and then seemingly get ditched in favour of a Wakey 'guest'...... What did Potts do wrong last week ?? ........ Wasn't Michael Knowles in with a chance of returning this week ?? .......... This veil of secrecy is wearing damned thin -- someone else referred to it as the "Mushroom" syndrome........... but the "Mushroom" syndrome doesn't require unquestioned loyalty and financial support in return for being fed sh*t on a regular basis...........

These 'kid' referees have no understanding of the game -- they're like students: Clever, great in everything to do with theory and bl**dy useless when it comes to actually doing something that requires a modicum of common sense............. And the coaches don't help them....... We, every team  not just Dewsbury, are constantly trying to hoodwink them : slowing down the PTB, pinching the ball, creeping offside etc etc etc........Is it ANY wonder we can't get near the Aussies when we only play the game at half their pace. We could have the best sport in the world -- IF we could, or would, just play to the rules and play the game in the best spirit of sport............ I know, I need to get my head out of the clouds...........but why the hell should I ???   There has to be better ways of spending Sundays......... 

Watching Yorkshire put Nottinghamshire to the sword for example......................... I don't think, in all my years of involvement, have I left a game feeling so down and disheartened by the whole thing.....

And the ADM Security bunch: Don't get me started......those worthless morons insulted those in the South Stand today -- eight or more at all times, yet at times there were none to be seen at the scoreboard end.......... WHY ??.... Are they 'policing' the home fans only ??   Waste  of money and another needless blight on our sport........... 

Can't comment on Dewsbury issues.But the fact that Halifax fans cheering an injured Dewsbury player is absolutely disgusting and totally unacceptable.The core values of which the game was founded are being eroded.Constantly playing for penalties.OMG I never thought I'd be thinking about rugby league the way I am at the moment. I'm getting bored and fed up with it.Some of the ref's we have leave alot to be desired.Also put into the mix that certain superleague club's wanting to cut funding to the lower echelons of the game stinks of elitism.And the word merging of clubs won't work,people won't wear it.Theres no way I would ever support another club other than Oldham,i think most people would think the same about their club's.The game is dying and there's sod all we can do about it.