SL could increase to 14 teams in 2021

[Smudger06]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Not really. Clubs will go bust under any system.

The point was less that clubs will go bust and more that these clubs will likely go bust.

Being able to get to SL isn't the issue. Whatever the standard of the lower leagues there will always be one of them who is best. But if that best lower league club is miles away from and completely Ill-prepared for SL being the best lower league club becomes meaningless.

Right now we don't have 12 SL quality clubs. For a 14 team SL with the possibility of 2 up/2 down we need at least 16 SL quality clubs. Last season clubs 15 and 16 were Widnes and Halifax two clubs who were light years away on the field. Clubs 13 and 14 (on league position) were London and Toulouse, two clubs who off the field are miles away. 

Will clubs go bust under any system? Yes.

Does it make sense to then import clubs who aren't sustainable at that level in the knowledge they will probably go bust? No. 

 

BUT that's sport, there's gonna be winners and losers, joy and heartbreak. 

The difference between the bottom 6 SL and the top 6 Championship is nothing more than the 1.825m of Sky Money each year. 

[Krzzystuff]

3 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

But no, artificial barriers will come crashing down once more....

Finical resources, marketing ability and knowledge of properly running a business aren't actually artificial barriers though are they? Some clubs are doing fantastic work with what the have (Fax, York) but others aren't and they are moaning that its someone elses fault when its their own. DJB is a great example of an owner who always blames someone or something else for their failures instead of owning up. Elite sports needs elite players who like to get paid elite wages. To pay those wages you need lots of fans in the ground buying tons of merch with a lot of big name sponsors on the merch. What are the clubs behind these "artificial barriers" doing to make that happen?

[stevevalerugby]

44 minutes ago, westside said:

It’s pretty simple. Two divisions. One with the new markets, one with the heartland teams. They buy into SL because it is an established product with a fan base and TV deals already, and brands like Leeds, Wigan, St Helens are well known.

Metropolitan

Toronto

Toulouse

Paris

Catalans

London

Montreal

Philadelphia

NYC

Heartland

Leeds

St Helens

Wigan

Hull x 2

Warrington

Huddersfield

Bradford

why is there always 2 Hull sides included to the detriment of another Town having a Superleague team.

[deluded pom?]

9 minutes ago, stevevalerugby said:

why is there always 2 Hull sides included to the detriment of another Town having a Superleague team.

Agree. Just dump Hull KR.

[red rose]

Leigh have got into financial problems due to our failure to finish top 4 in this seasons championship and not our season in super league.

If Fax,Fev or whoever in the future want a chance of super league then they should have that chance.If it goes wrong and they end up in a similar situation to Leigh, then that is up to them.

Nobody should be telling these clubs they have no right to a place in super league.

[Luckycreed]

4 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Just a point of order.

Apart from a few noisy outliers on this forum, the majority of Brits think that an invitation only closed shop is a weird thing to have in a professional sports league.

 

 

The vast majority of Brits also have zero interest in Rugby League, the current system was ok for a semi pro game, but there just are not enough clubs with large enough supporter bases  for a Soccer  type set up to be viable with the game trying to be full time pro.

.The second tier has to be fully professional if the top tier is and the sport has to be culturally dominant enough that if a team slips into the second tier it doesn't damage the sports popularity in that teams catchment area  or the whole thing is too unstable.I don't follow soccer but lets say I dunno Stoke get relegated., bad luck for poor old Stoke but Football will be still be king of the kids there.

Lets look at Rugby League and take an extreme example.Lets imagine Leeds were to have a shocking season with injuries, the players fall out with the coach, morale falls away and they run last and get punted.,The very same year Leeds United finally get their stuff together and win their way back into the big dance, it could be goodnight nurse for Rugby  League in Leeds.

There will 5k at Headingley and 35k at Elland Rd.Leeds United will be getting beamed  to a billion people across the globe while Leeds Rugby are not even on pay tv ,who the hell would want to put a single penny of sponsorship into Leeds Rugby League.,All very unlikely but the way game is currently structured it could happen..

English Rugby League is just not robust enough for this kind of structure the games supporter base is too small and beyond a handful of clubs too fragmented . You have a got about eight clubs at the most with large enough support for full time football with a structure that is constantly threatening  to reduce that number via relegation and really needs about twenty four to be viable, . That is why the game over there restructures every other year, in a futile attempt to make four plus four equal  a number greater than ten.

[Smudger06]

5 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

The only side knocking at SL’s door at present is Toronto. They have spoken of a five year plan, their ideas for when they’re in Super League and they’ve spent big thus far. 

I don’t think Toulouse are that close. They’d love to get into Super League but what’s going on with their ground? What sort of academy system do they have? And they don’t have the money of others. 

To say Widnes, Fev, Halifax etc are knocking on the door is a pipe dream. It would be great if we had a Championship of well run ‘big’ names battling it out for promotion but I don’t think we do. 

It would be great if we had a SL of well run big names battling it out as well, but I don't think we do.... 

[Smudger06]

2 hours ago, Krzzystuff said:

Finical resources, marketing ability and knowledge of properly running a business aren't actually artificial barriers though are they? Some clubs are doing fantastic work with what the have (Fax, York) but others aren't and they are moaning that its someone elses fault when its their own. DJB is a great example of an owner who always blames someone or something else for their failures instead of owning up. Elite sports needs elite players who like to get paid elite wages. To pay those wages you need lots of fans in the ground buying tons of merch with a lot of big name sponsors on the merch. What are the clubs behind these "artificial barriers" doing to make that happen?

Erm, playing rugby league to the very best of their ability, presumably.....no one said the things you mentioned were artificial barriers though did they? I'll tell you what is an artificial barrier......blocking promotion.....changing the format every 2 minutes......closing the shop......opening the shop when it's not working and then closing it again when it's endangering jealously held positions with access to money....

[Angelic Cynic]

10 minutes ago, Luckycreed said:

The vast majority of Brits also have zero interest in Rugby League, the current system was ok for a semi pro game, but there just are not enough clubs with large enough supporter bases  for a Soccer  type set up to be viable with the game trying to be full time pro.

.The second tier has to be fully professional if the top tier is and the sport has to be culturally dominant enough that if a team slips into the second tier it doesn't damage the sports popularity in that teams catchment area  or the whole thing is too unstable.I don't follow soccer but lets say I dunno Stoke get relegated., bad luck for poor old Stoke but Football will be still be king of the kids there.

Lets look at Rugby League and take an extreme example.Lets imagine Leeds were to have a shocking season with injuries, the players fall out with the coach, morale falls away and they run last and get punted.,The very same year Leeds United finally get their stuff together and win their way back into the big dance, it could be goodnight nurse for Rugby  League in Leeds.

There will 5k at Headingley and 35k at Elland Rd.Leeds United will be getting beamed  to a billion people across the globe while Leeds Rugby are not even on pay tv ,who the hell would want to put a single penny of sponsorship into Leeds Rugby League.,All very unlikely but the way game is currently structured it could happen..

English Rugby League is just not robust enough for this kind of structure the games supporter base is too small and beyond a handful of clubs too fragmented . You have a got about eight clubs at the most with large enough support for full time football with a structure that is constantly threatening  to reduce that number via relegation and really needs about twenty four to be viable, . That is why the game over there restructures every other year, in a futile attempt to make four plus four equal  a number greater than ten.

  Quality post.

   Reminded me of this article I read,quite by accident,longer ago than I first thought.

   https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/04/premiership-entertainment-attendances-the-breakdown-rugby-union

    How does our sport compare?

    I am now aware of the other code being shown on Channel 4.

    I await the next pearls of wisdom from the owner of Hull FC.

   

[Mumby Magic]

What another change to structure in RL? Never. I also don't see the obsession with 14 teams particularly to make more fixtures? Then we wonder why we never do anything at International level.

Look how strong the Championship will be next season. Something to shout about. It's getting similar to footballs championship with supposed big or bigger teams in the division. People say "replace Salford with" or Bradford should be....." is plain disrespectful. It should be done on the pitch, end of. It's like Leeds United calling Bournemouth out because they are a supposed big club but have been in the top league for years.

[GeordieSaint]

If this is on the cards, the SL board should be bold in collaboration with the RFL - ringfence 3 x positions for those non-UK sides; the UK sides are guaranteed the other 11 positions with the bottom UK side relegated to the Championship. We did they previously so no reason why we can’t do so again. If clubs like NYC or Montreal et al ever appear, add them to the league creating a 15-16 team SL with the same 11 positions guaranteed to UK sides. Be bold... 

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, westside said:

It’s pretty simple. Two divisions. One with the new markets, one with the heartland teams. They buy into SL because it is an established product with a fan base and TV deals already, and brands like Leeds, Wigan, St Helens are well known.

Metropolitan

Toronto

Toulouse

Paris

Catalans

London

Montreal

Philadelphia

NYC

Heartland

Leeds

St Helens

Wigan

Hull x 2

Warrington

Huddersfield

Bradford

With that structure, how would you balance the travel for all teams?

[westside]

My initial idea is everyone plays their divisional opponents twice then playoffs (top 4 from each division). During the regular season, European “Metropolitan” teams come over to NA for a mini tour and play all the teams, then NA teams head over there.

[Big Picture]

19 minutes ago, westside said:

My initial idea is everyone plays their divisional opponents twice then playoffs (top 4 from each division). During the regular season, European “Metropolitan” teams come over to NA for a mini tour and play all the teams, then NA teams head over there.

I said for all teams,  not just the teams in one of the two divisions.  What you laid out is not a level playing field, therefore if I were a rich potential investor I would show you the door.

[westside]

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. The two divisions would only meet in the playoffs, like Major League Baseball used to do. In terms of competitive balance, I’m pretty sure the likes of Toronto, NYC etc would be pretty good if and when they got to SL. Players will want to live in these locations. Heartland will always have the 100 year loyalty and passion to keep them going vs the richer markets.

[JohnM]

...and the money for all this will come from?

[westside]

I’m not suggesting this format for 2021, maybe 8-10 years from now. Until then teams need to be introduced in the way TWP were. Which means investors.

Paris I would think should try to link up with PSG again.

[Lobbygobbler]

4 hours ago, deluded pom? said:

Agree. Just dump Hull KR.

Hull is a big city with no other clubs nearby.

Why have Wigan, Saints and Warrington all in there? Its only because they are all good teams at the moment. Surely one is enough if geographical spread is the determining factor

[Southerner80]

3 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  Quality post.

   Reminded me of this article I read,quite by accident,longer ago than I first thought.

   https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/04/premiership-entertainment-attendances-the-breakdown-rugby-union

    How does our sport compare?

    I am now aware of the other code being shown on Channel 4.

    I await the next pearls of wisdom from the owner of Hull FC.

   

I think the post by Luckycreed was probably the best post I've read on here in my two years. It's so accurate and Bradford are a example of a big loss. RL isn't football we should remember this and structure accordingly. Further it doesn't help teams in the championship to have teams in their with 5-6 times the payroll.... 

I would hope one day to see a 16 team SL, 2 French, 1 Canadian, 1 from London and 12 from the North. With licencing. 

[Smudger06]

There's little wonder the sport is in chaos and decline, A lot of you ppl are acting hideously to be quite frank, your more than happy to totally shaft your fellow member Clubs and long term RFL Partners for fictional and non-existent Teams. some ought to be ashamed of themselves, not one of you have come up with a viable alternative plan for the real, existing heartland clubs, areas where kids actually still knock about with a R. League ball. To be honest it seems a breakaway is inevitable, its not two minutes since a new structure was finally agreed among all full member Clubs for God's sake!!! 

There's a blaitant conflict of Interest between being an ordinary shareholder of SLE on the one hand and a full member club of RFL (governing body) Ltd on the other.....

RFL and it's members should breakaway from SLE, not the other way round, 

Oh but SLE needs the referees? Needs the liaison and representation at RLIF level? Needs to contract out services like anti-doping and displinary panels to the RFL, needs access to grass roots youth players etc etc......

Get a grip folks.....for the sake of the sport, the war should be on the pitch. 

[Smudger06]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

...and the money for all this will come from?

Not one will give you an answer, there is no answer and no massive stash of cash.....Delusional springs to mind. 

[Daskaiser]

8 hours ago, westside said:

It’s pretty simple. Two divisions. One with the new markets, one with the heartland teams. They buy into SL because it is an established product with a fan base and TV deals already, and brands like Leeds, Wigan, St Helens are well known.

Metropolitan

Toronto

Toulouse

Paris

Catalans

London

Montreal

Philadelphia

NYC

Heartland

Leeds

St Helens

Wigan

Hull x 2

Warrington

Huddersfield

Bradford

This is a rather far fetched idea and very much a bias and one sided proposition, unless you said the Metropolitan divison plays for the top  2 to join the Heartland league for in effect a playoff process as I cannot see enough quality coming from those mentioned teams, also why on earth would the French Clubs and London be at all interested in flying to the US and Canada for games when the stronger competition would be an hour away.

It's time to expand, but consolidate and build the markets we know exist, another French team is a decent proposition and maybe Toronto if the RFL can really see that the money is there to carry the extra costs and travel for teams, an extra Canadian TV deal could potential pay for this.

But the biggest pool is still in the Heartland, really passion for RL, generations of fans, the game needs to find a way to maybe bring a couple of the championship teams together to form a SL club, tough to swallow to start, but could it work, better than starting from scratch. If Bradford can get back to a fan base that saw regular 10k+ crowds that is also a no brainer.

[westside]

Do you really think Toronto intend to play in a league that is all UK/France based forever? I don’t. The intention is surely to expand the North American market. A Montreal team makes a linkup with France sensible.

London could easily be in the other division in place of Bradford or whoever, but for investors I think putting the big markets together makes for a more attractive proposition. If you’re trying to get someone like PSG interested, London and Montreal are more enticing than some smaller towns without much international name recognition.

But again I think the point of the Toronto experiment has always been to see if pro RL can be successfully transplanted into new markets. So far so good it seems.

[jpmc]

32 minutes ago, westside said:

Do you really think Toronto intend to play in a league that is all UK/France based forever? I don’t. The intention is surely to expand the North American market. A Montreal team makes a linkup with France sensible.

London could easily be in the other division in place of Bradford or whoever, but for investors I think putting the big markets together makes for a more attractive proposition. If you’re trying to get someone like PSG interested, London and Montreal are more enticing than some smaller towns without much international name recognition.

But again I think the point of the Toronto experiment has always been to see if pro RL can be successfully transplanted into new markets. So far so good it seems.

I actually think that is Argyle and Toronto's intention except with other North American & British Cities as well ,Its very difficult to see how RL can attain a genuine foothold  any other way.

[westside]

Ok so let’s say no divisions. In that scenario you could see the new clubs replace old heartland markets that aren’t competitive financially. That’s a fear that has been expressed by many on here and not something that would be beneficial for British RL compared to the new clubs. A Heartland division preserves the traditional rivalries without stifling investment and innovation.

French rugby union has actually looked at a similar system for their second division, where clubs were grouped based on smaller, traditional cities (mainly southwest) and bigger cities in the north where rugby is now taking off. But predictably the smaller clubs voted it down.