Eric Perez buys Hemel’s licence, with plans to create second Canadian club (Merged Threads)

[Smudger06]

9 hours ago, Big Picture said:

No of course not.  After all it wasn't too hot in Port Moreseby during the last World Cup when the humidex hit 50 degrees.

Just wonder why Orlando City SC have afternoon kick offs at home in March, April and early May and then late May, June, July, August and September all their Home games are night games and then come October they have an afternoon kick off again? 

Lots of mandatory rehydration stoppages wouldn't help a tight TV Schedule neither would 7.30 or 8pm Kick Offs for Rugby League fans in UK & France. 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

First things first losing Salford, Wakefield and Huddersfield wouldnt leave us without any serious Rugby League Presence in Greater Manchester, Kirklees, Merseyside or Cheshire. There would still be numerous SL clubs in or very near those areas and even more clubs in the lower leagues.

Secondly we havent had a team in london in SL between 2014 and 2018 anyway.

Thirdly, there are a lot of things you are conflating here that don't all seem relevant to each other and often seen contradictory. For instance you argue that we don't have any visibility or presence with radio, television or print media and arent viewed as a national sport yet also argue against new teams and a larger geographical spread.

The truth of the matter is that your argument completely misunderstands Sky's business model. Sky's subscriptions (including sports) are somewhere between about £750 and £1200 per year depending on what you take. Wakefield or Hudds may be on 10 times a year. There arent significant numbers of people paying £100 a game to watch Wakefield on Tv. The vast majority of people watching every game, in any club sport that Sky sports show are neutrals.

Sky's product isnt aimed at Wakefield fans. Sky changed their offering to offer a more A la Carte service. Changing sky sports 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc to Sky sports football, sky sports golf, sky sports F1 etc and gave people the chance to subscribe to only the sports they wanted. What they found is that almost universally people subscribed to all sports. Comfortably the best viewed channel on Sky Sports isnt Sky sports premier league or Sky sports Cricket. Its Sky sports main event. A multi-sport channel only available to those who subscribe to all the sports channels. Very few people only subscribe to sky to watch 'their' sport. Even fewer to watch a specific competition, and even fewer to watch their team. They subscribe to watch Sports. They will watch RL and Football and Cricket and Boxing and NFL etc etc etc .

The fact of the matter is wherever Wakefield are and whatever competition they are playing in, the only place you can (legally) watch Rugby League as part of your sports product would still be Sky.

The blunt question is, if we Kick wakefield out tomorrow. Where does the Wakefield Sky Sports subscriber go?

Your missing the point of how the sport needs to be relevant to the viewer.

Its not about watching your team on TV but watching a sport that you are familiar with.

If you go to Leigh your more likely to be able to watch Super League in a pub. Than if you went to Exeter.  You decide Leigh should not be top flight or any club thats is not one of the big ones your going to damage the sport.

We need clubs to relevant again Bradford, Widnes, Leigh, Halifax, Keighley are all names that could bring a crowd at one time.

That footprint supplies our crowds for a much needed international game.

Yes, expand but never replace.

Clubs can leave Super League but we must have enough space for clubs to come back.

Have a 12 team league with 5 american teams the space goes for clubs to move between tier 1 and tier 2.

In the UK topflight round on round crowds for union have over taken league that number is an important statistic to would be sponsors.

A church does not spread its religion by having less but better looking churches.

 

[Kayakman]

On 3/8/2019 at 3:12 AM, The Parksider said:

The real debate now is how we get out of this mess with limited damage to our credibility. 

Sky viewing numbers are WAY up due to the 'Toronto Effect'...the only answer is to finish the race and announce a second NA franchise  ASAP....we need to keep the good Mojo flowing.

Don't worry Parky, the North Americans are here to save you folks over there...don't lose faith...we are coming..we are coming in the tens of thousands which will swell to millions...

KEEP THE FAITH!  WE ARE COMING BROTHER!

[TBone]

7 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

What they found is that almost universally people subscribed to all sports.

Not so sure about this... I recently decided to reduce our Sky costs so rang them up and told them that I only wanted to watch RL and didn't want to pay for the rest. As it happens reducing the sports package would not take a significant bite out of my subscription rate, so I said dump the films as well. Sky's response? "We can see that you are a long time subscriber (I've had Sky since it first started broadcasting RL), as a result we have a deal for you that, as long as you keep the film package will mean that you keep all the sports channels and pay significantly less".

Net result I continue to have films, I continue to have all sports but I now pay about half what I was. And, I only got all the sports because I was prepared to continue taking Sky cinema, not that I continue with all sports.

So it seems that it is important to Sky to keep people on full packages, even if they don't want them, by offering financial incentives.

Oh, I did lose one package - children's TV.

[TBone]

17 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The other way of looking at it is that you wanted to watch RL and you called them up only tell them you only wanted RL, by the end of that call sky have tied you into a contract selling you an entertainment package, a movie package, a football, golf, cricket and F1 package. Ill guess you have Broadband with them? so likely a landline you dont really use as well? So a Sky talk package with free calls on a phone you don't use is added in there as well.

You may have been paying less than you were for all these things, but you are paying more than you would be had you actually only signed up for what you wanted. RL.

 

Firstly, the only thing I want from the sports package is RL - we still wanted the Sky TV channels and weren’t bothered about films. We now get all of it for marginally more than dropping everything apart from the TV.

Secondly, I do not have any other Sky products.

I think it is more about Sky being s*t scared about people taking streaming packages in preference thus reducing their overall viewing figures and, consequently, their advertising revenue.

[Onieda FC]

On 3/2/2019 at 11:39 AM, Smudger06 said:

I'd like to know from someone involved with Jacksonville Axemen what their attendences have been like over the last 3 or 4 years and how many youth in the Jacksonville area play Rugby League.....otherwise there would be better places to go in Florida never mind the Eastern time zone .....

Average attendance league-wide in USARL in 2018 was between 50-200 people. The highest attendance was for the championship game, a little over a thousand. There is no "rugby league hotbed" here- it doesn't really matter where you go, your challenges will be the same.

Now before the doom-and-gloom "see North America will never work" merchants fire up their computers, let me explain something as an American fan of the game. This is a basically amateur competition that nobody outside the very small RL community here knows exists. There are 3 teams in the New York City area and if I wasn't already a fan of the game, I would not know they exist. They crowdfund to travel to away games, they play in public parks, and they do not have the money to market or promote themselves whatsoever. It's entirely word of mouth. The vast majority of my fellow Americans have never been exposed to RL either in person or TV.

Now you can look at that as a reason not to come here or you can look at that as opportunity to sell a game very similar in many respects to our football to a new audience. If you only capture 6% of our population- that's roughly 19 million new fans.

[Manx RL]

Has Perez bought Hemel’s licence? 

[Smudger06]

1 hour ago, Onieda FC said:

Average attendance league-wide in USARL in 2018 was between 50-200 people. The highest attendance was for the championship game, a little over a thousand. There is no "rugby league hotbed" here- it doesn't really matter where you go, your challenges will be the same.

Now before the doom-and-gloom "see North America will never work" merchants fire up their computers, let me explain something as an American fan of the game. This is a basically amateur competition that nobody outside the very small RL community here knows exists. There are 3 teams in the New York City area and if I wasn't already a fan of the game, I would not know they exist. They crowdfund to travel to away games, they play in public parks, and they do not have the money to market or promote themselves whatsoever. It's entirely word of mouth. The vast majority of my fellow Americans have never been exposed to RL either in person or TV.

Now you can look at that as a reason not to come here or you can look at that as opportunity to sell a game very similar in many respects to our football to a new audience. If you only capture 6% of our population- that's roughly 19 million new fans.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. By better places to go in the eastern time zone I didn't mean Jacksonville was ######, i was thinking mainly in terms of travel time / cost from the North of England for fans and teams visiting both sides of the pond. Basically cities with direct flights from Manchester Airport. 

[Kris]

1 hour ago, Manx RL said:

Has Perez bought Hemel’s licence? 

Not sure mate all the usual vitriolic goo goo seems to have got in the way but I would say no based on both Perez and Hemel not commenting when asked

No reason to deny if true

[TIWIT]

On 3/8/2019 at 3:12 AM, The Parksider said:

This is very true. The actual business TWP are doing is all on borrowed money - One directors loans, and after two years and more of paying high salaries, and massive travel costs, plus the away travel costs the overall account will show a loss of  $$$Millions. When Ken Davey loses ££Millions at Fartown he is condemned as running a failed club, and invited to stand aside and let the "Americans" show us how it is done........... And as usual they show us how to make bigger and better losses more quickly.

Your using some meaningless words and phrases like Scotchy does. There are no "NA franchises", not a single rich north American  has reacted to the opportunity to follow Aryglle and lose many $$$Millions himself. What do you mean by "roots" or "assets" do you mean he should buy Lamport and add many more $$$Millions to the massive deficit in the accounts?

I know when an argument is not addressed to me, and someone rudely talks about me in the third person, and lies about my stance, that my argument is won. Scotchy has played this game on the other thread. It's time to face reality that as the massive deficit in Toronto climbs and climbs the prospect of anyone else following  Mr. Argyle's business plan of building a debt mountain disappeared some time ago.

I have followed the story since it's inception, you have come in half way with stars in your eyes and dreams in your head. For you and for Double D let's be clear once again that the business plan given to Toulouse by Lenegan was to grow the player pool and obtain a large paying TV contract. That was the definition of growth by the man at the top and Mr. Argylle I can assure you agrees with that, and I know it because I know the simplicity of business. It is not throwing $Millions away for nothing in return.

Proof that Mr. Perez and Mr. Argyle accepted this can still be found in Mr. Perez's first major interview when he planned to convert young grid iron players to pro-RL players, and find five more NA clubs (who would equally have had to throw $$$Millions down the drain which is why they have not appeared) to make SL a Transatlantic league that would attract a massive North American TV contract. he achieved neither, it is all over and London is the escape route Argylle has invested in.

Now don't bother replying as it is game over, what I have set out on this thread and the other fantasy thread is the reality of a failed project we cannot abandon or the press and media will murder us.

The real debate now is how we get out of this mess with limited damage to our credibility. 

Oh puh-lease! Talk about rude!

You have no right to tell me or anyone elsr when we can and cannot post, because you have clearly never proven anything to anyone's satisfaction and that has never stopped you from pontificating.

[Onieda FC]

On 3/9/2019 at 1:24 PM, Smudger06 said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. By better places to go in the eastern time zone I didn't mean Jacksonville was ######, i was thinking mainly in terms of travel time / cost from the North of England for fans and teams visiting both sides of the pond. Basically cities with direct flights from Manchester Airport. 

It's ok, I've been to Jacksonville for a Patriots-Jags game- not a terrible place but certainly not a major American city. Expansion should be centered in the Northeast of the US/Eastern Canada to start with if you ask me: Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Hamilton, etc. 

[Onieda FC]

31 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I can see the value of that, i see the benefits, geographically in terms of travel, rivalry, timezones, etc of concentrating the geographical area it is in.

My concern would be the diminishing returns that we would see, at least initially, in terms of things like sponsorship. It was interesting listening to David Argyle that one of the big things about the success of Toronto was not only his ability to sell this English product to a Canadian audience but to use this Canadian product to sell to an English audience. There was a USP he had found of creating a way to sell sponsorship to Canadian products (and Toronto as a city) to an English market. Many of their sponsors arent looking to sell to the home team fans (or only the home team fans) but companies like Air Transats involvement is to raise their profile in the UK.

Canada is different to the United States in a many ways. Toronto is (rightly or wrongly) "the" city of Canada. Their professional teams like the Blue Jays, Maple Leafs, and Toronto FC have maple leaf imagery (and the Jays are supported coast to coast). We don't have anything like that down here. 

31 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

For places like Philly, Montreal, Boston, NYC you may very well be able to find that, but for Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Hamilton, that is going to be less so. And there is then a question of whether you could go for both Philly and NYC, would Hamilton detract from rather than add to Toronto.

I cant help thinking we might get a bit more bang for our buck aiming for tourist cities Orlando is obviously a massive market for the UK, and its not just getting fans of the team to visit, but there are maybe 3-400k people who watch SL every week in the UK to market to for relatively cheap.

I agree that sponsors for second-tier cities like Buffalo and Hamilton would be harder to come by than for tier-one cities like Boston, New York, and Philadelphia but not impossible. Every city named has at least one professional sports team in it, if not more, bringing in sponsors that dwarf what you find in rugby league. The smallest of these is Hamilton- who are represented in the CFL by the Tiger-Cats, the Ticats are sponsored by Tim Hortons. "Timmy's" just opened up locations in England. You don't think they'd want to get involved with a transatlantic team? 

Philadelphia's population is 1.6M- which besides I think Leeds and London is bigger than anything in Super League. That isn't going to detract from New York. You're talking about major American cities full of companies and opportunities. 

I'm not opposed to going to Orlando, at least they have direct flights (unlike Jacksonville), but I wouldn't prioritize it over going into the major media markets like New York. 

 

[TIWIT]

I never thought of Buffalo as a possible site of a new team but the more I do the more I like it. Buffalo is a solid working-class town, not rich, but very into sports and RFL would appeal to them. They don't really see themselves are rivals to Toronto - half the crowd at Leaf-Sabres games in Buffalo are from west of the border, no one at a Sabres-Leafs game in Toronto cheers for the Sabres; and a good quarter of Bills fans are Canadians, as are fans of the Bisons. And fans who come up to see the Jays from Buffalo are just as likely to be coming to cheer on the Yankees or Red Sox.

It's not an expensive sport - a major factor in Buffalo - and family friendly. And it could provide Buffalo a way to push back against Toronto that the want.

But this, this could work. It would be a new rivalry. Definitely food for thought.

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I never thought of Buffalo as a possible site of a new team but the more I do the more I like it. Buffalo is a solid working-class town, not rich, but very into sports and RFL would appeal to them. They don't really see themselves are rivals to Toronto - half the crowd at Leaf-Sabres games in Buffalo are from west of the border, no one at a Sabres-Leafs game in Toronto cheers for the Sabres; and a good quarter of Bills fans are Canadians, as are fans of the Bisons. And fans who come up to see the Jays from Buffalo are just as likely to be coming to cheer on the Yankees or Red Sox.

It's not an expensive sport - a major factor in Buffalo - and family friendly. And it could provide Buffalo a way to push back against Toronto that the want.

But this, this could work. It would be a new rivalry. Definitely food for thought.

I'm from Buffalo. It will never happen but i think it could work. The Indoor Lacrosse team had an average attendance of 14k last year. I agree with you about the Toronto fans travelling. Buffalo only has NFL & NHL compared to the other Big US cities that are always brought up that all have NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, &  MLS.

[BenGilesRL]

4 hours ago, rzesiej13 said:

I'm from Buffalo. It will never happen but i think it could work. The Indoor Lacrosse team had an average attendance of 14k last year. I agree with you about the Toronto fans travelling. Buffalo only has NFL & NHL compared to the other Big US cities that are always brought up that all have NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, &  MLS.

Buffalo is my NHL team and I agree it's people are honest hard working folk that would suit the sport, and be more likely to get involved and aspire to play for their local team as well. I would welcome that location and it would suit any future trips I was planning to watch the Sabres! 

[Smudger06]

Air transat - Toronto (8 hrs) American airlines - Philadelphia (8hrs) Singapore airlines - Houston (10 hr 20 min) Thomas cook airlines - Las Vegas (10 hrs 50 mins) , New York (8 hrs) , Orlando (9 hrs 20 min) United Airlines - Newark (8 hrs) Virgin Atlantic - Atlanta (9 hrs 10 mins), New York, Orlando I think we can rule out Houston & Las Vegas or anywhere over 9.5 hrs flight time. New York & Orlando are the most obvious places to me with 2 Airlines serving each with direct flights from Manchester. Then Philadelphia & Atlanta. Could have Hamilton because it's less than a 45 minute drive from Toronto International Airport. Whereas it's a 2 and half hour drive from Orlando Airport to Jacksonville or change flights at New York to fly down to Jacksonville which would take as long as Driving in after you've disembarked, got to Gate and taken off again! Looking at this even the great rivalry option of Montreal isn't viable because teams won't want to get the train down to Heathrow before getting a flight to Montreal. It's only a 7 and half hour flight to Montreal but then there's 2 hours on a train prior! It's an hour and 15 minutes flying from Toronto to Montreal so again, 2 flights isn't an option because of total travel time / cost. So realistically; New York Orlando Philadelphia Atlanta Are the only viable North American expansion options at present. Unless Air Transat or another airline opens up a Manchester - Montreal route.

[TheReaper]

Oh my God, you can't complain about an extra two hours travel in GD international sports!

[PatrickB]

10 hours ago, rzesiej13 said:

I'm from Buffalo. It will never happen but i think it could work. The Indoor Lacrosse team had an average attendance of 14k last year. I agree with you about the Toronto fans travelling. Buffalo only has NFL & NHL compared to the other Big US cities that are always brought up that all have NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, &  MLS.

I think it could work too. And definitely TWP fans would come down for rivalry games. 
Just 3 weeks ago, I drove to Buffalo for a University of Buffalo basketball game.
 

[North but south]

5 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

Air transat - Toronto (8 hrs) American airlines - Philadelphia (8hrs) Singapore airlines - Houston (10 hr 20 min) Thomas cook airlines - Las Vegas (10 hrs 50 mins) , New York (8 hrs) , Orlando (9 hrs 20 min) United Airlines - Newark (8 hrs) Virgin Atlantic - Atlanta (9 hrs 10 mins), New York, Orlando I think we can rule out Houston & Las Vegas or anywhere over 9.5 hrs flight time. New York & Orlando are the most obvious places to me with 2 Airlines serving each with direct flights from Manchester. Then Philadelphia & Atlanta. Could have Hamilton because it's less than a 45 minute drive from Toronto International Airport. Whereas it's a 2 and half hour drive from Orlando Airport to Jacksonville or change flights at New York to fly down to Jacksonville which would take as long as Driving in after you've disembarked, got to Gate and taken off again! Looking at this even the great rivalry option of Montreal isn't viable because teams won't want to get the train down to Heathrow before getting a flight to Montreal. It's only a 7 and half hour flight to Montreal but then there's 2 hours on a train prior! It's an hour and 15 minutes flying from Toronto to Montreal so again, 2 flights isn't an option because of total travel time / cost. So realistically; New York Orlando Philadelphia Atlanta Are the only viable North American expansion options at present. Unless Air Transat or another airline opens up a Manchester - Montreal route.

You missed a few airlines. Delta fly non stop to Atlanta, Boston, new York, Orlando, Las Vegas, an la.

If you flew to London, Paris or amstadam then most of America is accessible. If you go through Dublin then you can clear us immigration before arriving in the US, saving hours waiting in queues.

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Oh my God, you can't complain about an extra two hours travel in GD international sports!

And of course, in major North American pro leagues the teams charter direct flights on their road trips to get around all such limitations of scheduled commercial flights.

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's obviously a bit pie in the sky at the moment but if we were to get to that level we would almost certainly need one airline to be the official airline of Super League. Cant imagine there will be a tonne of airlines lining up to sponsor one team while their rivals have others. 

We won't get to that level without a whole new organization being set up separately from the RFL and SL, because no one in those organizations would be remotely competent to achieve it.

[Smudger06]

28 minutes ago, North but south said:

You missed a few airlines. Delta fly non stop to Atlanta, Boston, new York, Orlando, Las Vegas, an la.

If you flew to London, Paris or amstadam then most of America is accessible. If you go through Dublin then you can clear us immigration before arriving in the US, saving hours waiting in queues.

Are those Delta flights from Manchester mate?..... Can't see Super League Teams wanting to fly from say Leeds/Bradford or Humberside airport to Dublin / Heathrow or Paris to then change and fly across the Atlantic, not it they are doing it more than a couple of times a season, the expenses and traveling time adds up quickly, when squads could be resting / training instead they will be travelling. 

[Smudger06]

4 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Oh my God, you can't complain about an extra two hours travel in GD international sports!

You can if it's about 28 staff and players and you are doing it 4 or 5 times a season. Costs would rise rapidly, wether you hire a coach at the other side or take a short flight......

[North but south]

25 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Are those Delta flights from Manchester mate?..... Can't see Super League Teams wanting to fly from say Leeds/Bradford or Humberside airport to Dublin / Heathrow or Paris to then change and fly across the Atlantic, not it they are doing it more than a couple of times a season, the expenses and traveling time adds up quickly, when squads could be resting / training instead they will be travelling. 

According to the delta website they are. 

Flying through these other airports to reach other destination is an option, lots of smaller football teams do when playing in Europe. It can also be cheaper to use these hub airports. With player, coaches, medical staff flying several times a year this could save them a lot of money.

[Big Picture]

12 minutes ago, North but south said:

According to the delta website they are. 

Flying through these other airports to reach other destination is an option, lots of smaller football teams do when playing in Europe. It can also be cheaper to use these hub airports. With player, coaches, medical staff flying several times a year this could save them a lot of money.

It's quite amazing how so many within the game can't get their heads around the idea that teams in other sports already do the things which they think aren't possible in RL!