Eric Perez buys Hemel’s licence, with plans to create second Canadian club (Merged Threads)

[Hemel Stag]

On 3/1/2019 at 12:13 PM, GUBRATS said:

No , its all Bull

Does that mean he is buying Bradford now ?  

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Hemel Stag said:

I seem to remember reading that Toronto had an exemption from any wage cap. Not sure if this true, but I do wonder how they could afford all those professional athletes otherwise; if they were limited to a Championship wage cap and budget? Like Barrow, Batley, Bradford, Dewsbury, Heatherstone, Halifax, Leigh, Rochdale, Sheffield, Swinton, Widnes, York

The Championship salary cap is the same amount as Super League.

[Hemel Stag]

Just now, Damien said:

The Championship salary cap is the same amount as Super League.

That's good to know. But do Toronto have an exemption ?

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Hemel Stag said:

That's good to know. But do Toronto have an exemption ?

Why would you think that and why would they need one?

[Hemel Stag]

Just now, Damien said:

Why would you think that and why would they need one?

Probably because I spend too much time reading Twitter Twaddle and Forum's where rumours and half truths abound. 

[Damien]

Just now, Hemel Stag said:

Probably because I spend too much time reading Twitter Twaddle and Forum's where rumours and half truths abound. 

From paranoid RL fans no doubt. Toronto can spend the same as any Super League club and have marquee players in the same way. However if you look at the Toronto squad, most of Super League has better. They have absolutely no need for exemptions.

[Hemel Stag]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

From paranoid RL fans no doubt. Toronto can spend the same as any Super League club and have marquee players in the same way. However if you look at the Toronto squad, most of Super League has better. They have absolutely no need for exemptions.

Thanks for clarifying that.

It's interesting that Championship clubs are allowed to spend up to the Super League cap, whilst most of the teams in the Championship probably could never afford to spend anything like this in reality. I guess it has to be that way to allow for clubs who are in the ascendancy and those that are parachuting back down? In terms of promotion and relegation.

I think the (present) Wolfpack line up has been assembled to provide both sufficient fire power, and defensive prowess, to ensure they can win against all comers and ensure promotion to Super League. It will be a more straight forward proposition this time, as the weirdness and randomness of the Super 8's (mini play off competition) has been ditched. Week by week they are putting on a good show and earning respect for their tenacious and relentless effort. When they get promoted, I dare say they will again strengthen and tailor their team to suit the next level. The players change and will change again and again but the overall impression the club makes and the way it makes people feel will resonate for much longer. That is building a brand and a legacy.

[Chamey]

A SL with Catalans, London, and Toronto would be a very strong start to a true super league, I'm excited to see that it may even be here next year.

[The Parksider]

15 hours ago, Big Picture said:

The problem is, that growth can only occur outside the existing structure because as the events of the past year show, no one within it is remotely competent to achieve it.  A whole new setup would be required for that growth to happen, one completely separate from the existing structure so it won't be held back by the small-time mindset which every traditional club's management has.

Rugby League here is swamped by national sports like Soccer and Union and cannot grow as a result. You still dream some god like individual can turn back a tide that has washed over us since the late 1880's when people turned to soccer from Rugby en masse before Rugby League formed as a breakaway from Union in 1896. Participation in both Rugby codes and soccer has dropped like a stone in these modern times, I've been part of it, I've seen it. I live in North Leeds where the Rhinos are and across the area we have some pretty big amateur Rugby Union clubs (Roundhegians, Moortown, Leodiensians, West Park, Modernians and Yarnbury) playing out of excellent facilities with junior set ups but despite decades of Leeds RL being a top club the kids prefer Soccer, the schools mainly play union, and few RL players are developed. My local school did develop Catalans Jodie Broughton though and we are proud of that. We are badly short of the quality professionals we need to stock the TV league, and that will never get better, and it's not due to small time thinking BP it's just reality. 

16 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

I'm not denying reality, but your reality has no appeal for me. The difference here is money. A small-time league with teams clustered closely together in small to medium towns with most of them only able to pay players enough to focus part-time on the game is not going to grow enough to compete with other sports for talent, and it's not going to attract big money to the sport. Add enough money to the game, by bringing in new teams that pay dearly for the privilege and grow sponsorship and broadcast revenue for all, and the salary cap goes up and the appeal of playing in that league increases dramatically.

John, it's not "MY" reality it is how it is. It is the same for RL in Canada as Perez found out, Soccer grid iron, union etc have got themselves established and the kids all go play those games. Perez gave up  trying to develop RL players and left Canada RL, Argyle has not even bothered to try development as he cannot buy all the "volunteers" it needs to run a grass roots game.

Forget 10 years, forget 20 Years, it's been 100 years since Union round here spent it's money on building their game as a grass roots sport, getting it in the schools and buying up land and setting out pitches and building clubhouses. Leeds Rhinos work their absolute socks off to attract kids to the game, but it's all they can do to ensure existing junior RL clubs mainly south and west of the city survive. Gentlemen, the name of the game is survival and not growth.

John check the money kids can get playing soccer, Check the English Rugby Union Premiership salary cap John it is £7,000,000 over three time bigger than RL's. It will always have far more appeal than League John.

For these factual and very real reasons the situation we have is every new overseas clubs taking a place of an M62 club will have the effect of badly depressing the game here. Pushed down to the championship clubs here cannot run development foundations nor Academies. Pushed out of Superleague will mean resentful fans who may accept being replaced by Bradford Bulls or York Knights, but not Jacksonville or New York.They will walk out of the sport. Call these fans what you want gentlemen but it won't change the fact that the dream is well and truly over, and it's time to face reality.

And the bottom line is that the one NA club allowed in will remain in only as long as the Billionaire owner exists, but that $$Billionaire owner has to put some of his riches our way, he has to put in more than he takes out or that will certainly be that. So can we perhaps move the discussion onto that reality?

[Getmefood]

52 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Rugby League here is swamped by national sports like Soccer and Union and cannot grow as a result. You still dream some god like individual can turn back a tide that has washed over us since the late 1880's when people turned to soccer from Rugby en masse before Rugby League formed as a breakaway from Union in 1896. Participation in both Rugby codes and soccer has dropped like a stone in these modern times, I've been part of it, I've seen it. I live in North Leeds where the Rhinos are and across the area we have some pretty big amateur Rugby Union clubs (Roundhegians, Moortown, Leodiensians, West Park, Modernians and Yarnbury) playing out of excellent facilities with junior set ups but despite decades of Leeds RL being a top club the kids prefer Soccer, the schools mainly play union, and few RL players are developed. My local school did develop Catalans Jodie Broughton though and we are proud of that. We are badly short of the quality professionals we need to stock the TV league, and that will never get better, and it's not due to small time thinking BP it's just reality. 

John, it's not "MY" reality it is how it is. It is the same for RL in Canada as Perez found out, Soccer grid iron, union etc have got themselves established and the kids all go play those games. Perez gave up  trying to develop RL players and left Canada RL, Argyle has not even bothered to try development as he cannot buy all the "volunteers" it needs to run a grass roots game.

Forget 10 years, forget 20 Years, it's been 100 years since Union round here spent it's money on building their game as a grass roots sport, getting it in the schools and buying up land and setting out pitches and building clubhouses. Leeds Rhinos work their absolute socks off to attract kids to the game, but it's all they can do to ensure existing junior RL clubs mainly south and west of the city survive. Gentlemen, the name of the game is survival and not growth.

John check the money kids can get playing soccer, Check the English Rugby Union Premiership salary cap John it is £7,000,000 over three time bigger than RL's. It will always have far more appeal than League John.

For these factual and very real reasons the situation we have is every new overseas clubs taking a place of an M62 club will have the effect of badly depressing the game here. Pushed down to the championship clubs here cannot run development foundations nor Academies. Pushed out of Superleague will mean resentful fans who may accept being replaced by Bradford Bulls or York Knights, but not Jacksonville or New York.They will walk out of the sport. Call these fans what you want gentlemen but it won't change the fact that the dream is well and truly over, and it's time to face reality.

And the bottom line is that the one NA club allowed in will remain in only as long as the Billionaire owner exists, but that $$Billionaire owner has to put some of his riches our way, he has to put in more than he takes out or that will certainly be that. So can we perhaps move the discussion onto that reality?

Don't worry these clubs don't exist yet (except for Toronto). I'd say give Toronto at least 10-20 years before we knock them off, hopefully they will have some type of junior setup by then and producing their own players. If the same can happen in other North American cities then that can only be great for RL, while they will be taking players from the UK/Australia/NZ etc... in the short term the long term benefit is they will have established RL in a new area and meaning increased revenue so we can see that day where the salary cap is over £7m in RL and competing with soccer and RU! so the best thing we can do is wait and see where Toronto end up in that time and keeping clubs like Hunslet, Oldham, Halifax, etc.. going instead of making excuses why we can't.

[Damien]

5 hours ago, Chamey said:

A SL with Catalans, London, and Toronto would be a very strong start to a true super league, I'm excited to see that it may even be here next year.

And Toulouse too.

[GUBRATS]

17 hours ago, Big Picture said:

I made no prediction, but what I described could well come about if someone over here put together a solid plan for it and could sell that to well-heeled investors.

As for the RFL admitting a second North American team that could happen but they'd likely screw it up,

I believe that they might well be looking at testing the water with a second club , along with Toulouse , it would give SKY a solid 4 match schedule each week , something Scotchy has suggested previously

World domination , I cant really see happening

[iangidds]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Rugby League here is swamped by national sports like Soccer and Union and cannot grow as a result. You still dream some god like individual can turn back a tide that has washed over us since the late 1880's when people turned to soccer from Rugby en masse before Rugby League formed as a breakaway from Union in 1896. Participation in both Rugby codes and soccer has dropped like a stone in these modern times, I've been part of it, I've seen it. I live in North Leeds where the Rhinos are and across the area we have some pretty big amateur Rugby Union clubs (Roundhegians, Moortown, Leodiensians, West Park, Modernians and Yarnbury) playing out of excellent facilities with junior set ups but despite decades of Leeds RL being a top club the kids prefer Soccer, the schools mainly play union, and few RL players are developed. My local school did develop Catalans Jodie Broughton though and we are proud of that. We are badly short of the quality professionals we need to stock the TV league, and that will never get better, and it's not due to small time thinking BP it's just reality. 

John, it's not "MY" reality it is how it is. It is the same for RL in Canada as Perez found out, Soccer grid iron, union etc have got themselves established and the kids all go play those games. Perez gave up  trying to develop RL players and left Canada RL, Argyle has not even bothered to try development as he cannot buy all the "volunteers" it needs to run a grass roots game.

Forget 10 years, forget 20 Years, it's been 100 years since Union round here spent it's money on building their game as a grass roots sport, getting it in the schools and buying up land and setting out pitches and building clubhouses. Leeds Rhinos work their absolute socks off to attract kids to the game, but it's all they can do to ensure existing junior RL clubs mainly south and west of the city survive. Gentlemen, the name of the game is survival and not growth.

John check the money kids can get playing soccer, Check the English Rugby Union Premiership salary cap John it is £7,000,000 over three time bigger than RL's. It will always have far more appeal than League John.

For these factual and very real reasons the situation we have is every new overseas clubs taking a place of an M62 club will have the effect of badly depressing the game here. Pushed down to the championship clubs here cannot run development foundations nor Academies. Pushed out of Superleague will mean resentful fans who may accept being replaced by Bradford Bulls or York Knights, but not Jacksonville or New York.They will walk out of the sport. Call these fans what you want gentlemen but it won't change the fact that the dream is well and truly over, and it's time to face reality.

And the bottom line is that the one NA club allowed in will remain in only as long as the Billionaire owner exists, but that $$Billionaire owner has to put some of his riches our way, he has to put in more than he takes out or that will certainly be that. So can we perhaps move the discussion onto that reality?

To be honest I think many of us are deluded about the game we love , we believe it’s mainstream , we believe it’s the best , we believe we will conquer the sporting world given a chance!!

truth is no ones coming to save us and we as a sport are becoming less and less relevant every day, other sports have galloped off to the future with blue chip backers whilst we got stuck with mushy ###### peas!! 

Ive read all the stories of expansion and hope for 30 years and sadly have come to the conclusion it’s not going to happen.

[TIWIT]

I find it curious how Parky, who admits he is focussed on the survival of the game not the growth of the game, also seems to know David Argyle's long term plans. 

Argyle realizes to survive you have to grow and that is his 'reality'. Eric Perez shares that philosophy.

Parky's reality has the game continuing to slowly shrivel up, but as long as a few dozen fans continue to turn up to watch games played in empty windswept stadiums scattered along the M62 that is survival and the best that can be hoped for.

I know whose reality I prefer.

 

[Lowdesert]

13 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

I find it curious how Parky, who admits he is focussed on the survival of the game not the growth of the game, also seems to know David Argyle's long term plans. 

Argyle realizes to survive you have to grow and that is his 'reality'. Eric Perez shares that philosophy.

Parky has the game continuing to slowly shrivel up, but as long as a few dozen fans continue to turn up to watch games played in empty windswept stadiums scattered along the M62 that is survival.

I know whose reality I prefer.

 

He’s an RU fan, what do you expect?

 

[Hemel Stag]

11 hours ago, iangidds said:

For these factual and very real reasons the situation we have is every new overseas clubs taking a place of an M62 club will have the effect of badly depressing the game here. Pushed down to the championship clubs here cannot run development foundations nor Academies. Pushed out of Superleague will mean resentful fans who may accept being replaced by Bradford Bulls or York Knights, but not Jacksonville or New York.They will walk out of the sport.

I would just like to make a comparison with the world of soccer. A game you may not like but will be familiar with as it dominates our sporting scene. If there were a Super Super League, like the Soccer European Champions League, it would make sense to have an international league running as an added extra to the several strong national leagues that supply the contenders, like UK, France, Spain, Italy, Germany etc. Without those strong national leagues it would seem slightly odd to see lets say Barcelona or Dortmund playing in the English Premiership on a full time basis whilst not playing teams from their own countries and with teams like West Ham, Leicester, Burnley getting shoved into the Premiership.

RL will never compete with Soccer. But RU is not as followed as the media suggests. Forget the hoo-haa surrounding Team England. At a club level the gates are similar to RL. Before RU decided to go "professional" it really was very small beer. There's no reason RL couldn't rival RU for attention and following. If the NFL can sell out Wembley for an alien sport that has no base in this country, we should be able to match or better this with an indigenous sport and more than a hundred years of heritage.

 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

The danger with North American expansion is it is dot boom.

People are involved because the money is in creating new franchises.

Its like owning virtual currency or shares in a web company.

Unless it has assets or produces cashes, it does not matter how much people speculate it is worth.

The likes of Eric Perez are basically no different to estate agents.  

They get a sale and move on.

The problem is when it runs out of hype and the reality of funding a team kicks in and the fact long term you wont make money out of it.

The american franchises will disappear and you will only have a few top flight uk teams left.

You can't replace teams at the top end you need to expand it if the game is to survive.

 

[Kayakman]

3 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

The danger with North American expansion is it is dot boom.

People are involved because the money is in creating new franchises.

Its like owning virtual currency or shares in a web company.

Unless it has assets or produces cashes, it does not matter how much people speculate it is worth.

The likes of Eric Perez are basically no different to estate agents.  

They get a sale and move on.

The problem is when it runs out of hype and the reality of funding a team kicks in and the fact long term you wont make money out of it.

The american franchises will disappear and you will only have a few top flight uk teams left.

You can't replace teams at the top end you need to expand it if the game is to survive.

 

My God!....you can't let old age continue to jade you this way...STOP IT!...and try to be more positive about the future.   Great things are just around the corner for RL.....

[DoubleD]

49 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

The danger with North American expansion is it is dot boom.

People are involved because the money is in creating new franchises.

Its like owning virtual currency or shares in a web company.

Unless it has assets or produces cashes, it does not matter how much people speculate it is worth.

The likes of Eric Perez are basically no different to estate agents.  

They get a sale and move on.

The problem is when it runs out of hype and the reality of funding a team kicks in and the fact long term you wont make money out of it.

The american franchises will disappear and you will only have a few top flight uk teams left.

You can't replace teams at the top end you need to expand it if the game is to survive.

 

I think there’s some accurate analogies there as to the risk of NA franchises but I think it’s premature to make that prediction as yet. I think Argyle has greater long term commitment and his link with the Skolars is proof of that. 

The next step is to put some roots down in Toronto in terms of assets

[TIWIT]

57 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

The danger with North American expansion is it is dot boom.

People are involved because the money is in creating new franchises.

Its like owning virtual currency or shares in a web company.

Unless it has assets or produces cashes, it does not matter how much people speculate it is worth.

The likes of Eric Perez are basically no different to estate agents.  

They get a sale and move on.

The problem is when it runs out of hype and the reality of funding a team kicks in and the fact long term you wont make money out of it.

The american franchises will disappear and you will only have a few top flight uk teams left.

You can't replace teams at the top end you need to expand it if the game is to survive.

 

You can make a great deal of money out of owning a sports team in NAM - if the owner has a long-term plan and good partners. Which I'm sure Argyle does in the former and the latter when TWP get into SL.

And if say in 10 years it all goes bust and SL is down to just 10 teams it will be 10 strong teams with a good foundation, no more weak sisters needing propping up, and they can slowly begin to expand again, avoiding recent mistakes.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

21 hours ago, TIWIT said:

You can make a great deal of money out of owning a sports team in NAM - if the owner has a long-term plan and good partners. Which I'm sure Argyle does in the former and the latter when TWP get into SL.

And if say in 10 years it all goes bust and SL is down to just 10 teams it will be 10 strong teams with a good foundation, no more weak sisters needing propping up, and they can slowly begin to expand again, avoiding recent mistakes.

Rugby League has a decreasing footprint. 

Keep cutting the number of top flight teams you will struggle to find enough casual fans to justify a tv deal with sky.

Salford, Huddersfield,London and Wakefield might not pack the terraces but take them out of the top flight or out of existence your viewing figures will collapse as you lose massive population centres which have a rugby league presence.

Better to have more teams with players on lower wages.

 

[The Parksider]

On 3/6/2019 at 10:31 PM, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

The danger with North American expansion is it is dot boom.Unless it has assets or produces cash, it does not matter how much people speculate it is worth. The problem is when it runs out of hype and the reality of funding a team kicks in and the fact long term you wont make money out of it.The american franchises will disappear...........

You can't replace teams at the top end you need to expand it if the game is to survive.

This is very true. The actual business TWP are doing is all on borrowed money - One directors loans, and after two years and more of paying high salaries, and massive travel costs, plus the away travel costs the overall account will show a loss of  $$$Millions. When Ken Davey loses ££Millions at Fartown he is condemned as running a failed club, and invited to stand aside and let the "Americans" show us how it is done........... And as usual they show us how to make bigger and better losses more quickly.

On 3/6/2019 at 11:20 PM, DoubleD said:

I think there’s some accurate analogies there as to the risk of NA franchises but I think it’s premature to make that prediction as yet. I think Argyle has greater long term commitment and his link with the Skolars is proof of that. The next step is to put some roots down in Toronto in terms of assets

Your using some meaningless words and phrases like Scotchy does. There are no "NA franchises", not a single rich north American  has reacted to the opportunity to follow Aryglle and lose many $$$Millions himself. What do you mean by "roots" or "assets" do you mean he should buy Lamport and add many more $$$Millions to the massive deficit in the accounts?

On 3/6/2019 at 4:53 PM, TIWIT said:

I find it curious how Parky, who admits he is focused on the survival of the game not the growth of the game, also seems to know David Argyle's long term plans. Argyle realizes to survive you have to grow and that is his 'reality'. Eric Perez shares that philosophy.

Parky's reality has the game continuing to slowly shrivel up

I know when an argument is not addressed to me, and someone rudely talks about me in the third person, and lies about my stance, that my argument is won. Scotchy has played this game on the other thread. It's time to face reality that as the massive deficit in Toronto climbs and climbs the prospect of anyone else following  Mr. Argyle's business plan of building a debt mountain disappeared some time ago.

I have followed the story since it's inception, you have come in half way with stars in your eyes and dreams in your head. For you and for Double D let's be clear once again that the business plan given to Toulouse by Lenegan was to grow the player pool and obtain a large paying TV contract. That was the definition of growth by the man at the top and Mr. Argylle I can assure you agrees with that, and I know it because I know the simplicity of business. It is not throwing $Millions away for nothing in return.

Proof that Mr. Perez and Mr. Argyle accepted this can still be found in Mr. Perez's first major interview when he planned to convert young grid iron players to pro-RL players, and find five more NA clubs (who would equally have had to throw $$$Millions down the drain which is why they have not appeared) to make SL a Transatlantic league that would attract a massive North American TV contract. he achieved neither, it is all over and London is the escape route Argylle has invested in.

Now don't bother replying as it is game over, what I have set out on this thread and the other fantasy thread is the reality of a failed project we cannot abandon or the press and media will murder us.

The real debate now is how we get out of this mess with limited damage to our credibility. 

[Smudger06]

On 3/1/2019 at 8:13 AM, scotchy1 said:

Wouldn't the difference is climate be something of a solution to Toronto's early season issue? A Florida side playing all their games at home from say february to june to avoid the hear of summer, Toronto playing theirs away, Toronto playing all their home games June to September to avoid their harsh winter. Then we can create two N/A time slots 7pm London for the team playing away, 9pm London for the team playing home. Do similar with les catalans and Toulouse at 3pm London and 5pm London and we have 4 match super Saturday Ready made 8hr TV package to sell to broadcasters all over the world. 

My question is, would it be too hot to host 4pm local time kick offs in Florida come late May/ early June? 

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

My question is, would it be too hot to host 4pm local time kick offs in Florida come late May/ early June? 

No of course not.  After all it wasn't too hot in Port Moreseby during the last World Cup when the humidex hit 50 degrees.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

8 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I dont think this is the case at all. If it were then Sky would screen the championship. They dont because its not quite how it works. I doubt there is a meaningful number of people who subscribe to sky sports because of Wakefield or huddersfield are in SL. I would bet the numbers for whom those clubs participation is a meaningful factor in their decision to subscribe are negligible. 

That statement can only be backed up if you have the viewing figure data from Sky.

You say that's not how it works, but if the audience for Super League is around 100-150k viewers where are those viewers coming from?

If you think removing any serious Rugby League presence from Greater Manchester, Kirklees, Merseyside\Cheshire and London wont have a negative impact on that viewer pool.  I am not sure who you think the viewers are for a sport that has next no real media footprint.

We are not seen as a national sport by the majority of the radio \television and print media.

The people at the RFU who have been trying to wipe out the sport since 1895 cant believe their luck.

 I suspect with the plans for this "Emperors New Clothes" transatlantic league they have decide to leave us to it.

As we put the gun in our own mouth and prepare to pull the trigger as we wipe out our presence from the sporting map of England.