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John Drake

Sat 12 Oct: SLGF: Salford Red Devils v St Helens KO 6pm (TV)

Who will win?  

106 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. Who will win?

    • Salford Red Devils by 13 points or more
      7
    • Salford Red Devils by 7 to 12 points
      19
    • Salford Red Devils by 1 to 6 points
      34
    • St Helens by 1 to 6 points
      1
    • St Helens by 7 to 12 points
      23
    • St Helens by 13 points or more
      22

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  • Poll closed on 12/10/19 at 17:00

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

OK, re Mr Cooper, and the other points I made, respectfully I answered yours.

Ok, Cooper played 69 NRL games. He was well respected and earned an England call up, doing well against some of the worlds best at club level and internationally.

On the other point, we dont need to see Thompson in the NRL to make a call on his talent. We can see it, and if people feel the need to benchmark, then we have more than enough reference points, we have had plenty of overseas players who have had substantial NRL experience and played here for us to compare to. Some big names have done well, others less so, whilst some modest names have done well and been firm favourites here 

We also have the reference point of the forwards that have gone over recently to be able to compare to. 

It doesn't really matter on the quality of player coming here, they have substantial NRL experience and we can see that Thompson is an excellent player.

I'm not sure players need to go to the NRL to 'prove themselves', and I think fans are more than capable of recognising talented players.

 

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Ok, Cooper played 69 NRL games. He was well respected and earned an England call up, doing well against some of the worlds best at club level and internationally.

On the other point, we dont need to see Thompson in the NRL to make a call on his talent. We can see it, and if people feel the need to benchmark, then we have more than enough reference points, we have had plenty of overseas players who have had substantial NRL experience and played here for us to compare to. Some big names have done well, others less so, whilst some modest names have done well and been firm favourites here 

We also have the reference point of the forwards that have gone over recently to be able to compare to. 

It doesn't really matter on the quality of player coming here, they have substantial NRL experience and we can see that Thompson is an excellent player.

I'm not sure players need to go to the NRL to 'prove themselves', and I think fans are more than capable of recognising talented players.

 

It's all about perpective David, if a lowly ranked international 400 meter runner was competing against a club runner in a one lap race he would undoubtedly look very fast, now pitch that same guy in a World or Olympic final and he would be nowhere near at the finish probably finishing yards behind.

I really want our guy's to be the best, but to do that they have to compete against the best and prove themselves in that company, of all the high profile guy's who have gone from our shore's to the NRL never once have I heard them say I am going for the money, it is always I want to proove myself with and against the best. 

I think we are all capable of recognising talented players, I spend a lot of time watching the community game, and the conversation often gets round to the quality of a particular player and of how good or great he is, but again putting that into perspective we are measuring him against his contemporaries, the 'great' accolade we have given him, we know would not be as relevant if he made the next step up in competing at a higher level, he would have to proove himself at that level.

If you disagree with me that the NRL is a better standard, with many more better player's and played at a much higher intensity than SL, then discussion over, but if you don't and agree with me, respectfully I can't see the point of your argument.

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

It's all about perpective David, if a lowly ranked international 400 meter runner was competing against a club runner in a one lap race he would undoubtedly look very fast, now pitch that same guy in a World or Olympic final and he would be nowhere near at the finish probably finishing yards behind.

I really want our guy's to be the best, but to do that they have to compete against the best and prove themselves in that company, of all the high profile guy's who have gone from our shore's to the NRL never once have I heard them say I am going for the money, it is always I want to proove myself with and against the best. 

I think we are all capable of recognising talented players, I spend a lot of time watching the community game, and the conversation often gets round to the quality of a particular player and of how good or great he is, but again putting that into perspective we are measuring him against his contemporaries, the 'great' accolade we have given him, we know would not be as relevant if he made the next step up in competing at a higher level, he would have to proove himself at that level.

If you disagree with me that the NRL is a better standard, with many more better player's and played at a much higher intensity than SL, then discussion over, but if you don't and agree with me, respectfully I can't see the point of your argument.

Jamie Peacock didnt go to the NRL but I have no issues with describing him as one of the best forwards in world Rugby.

You should back your judgement a bit more.

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I always got the impression that Cooper was rated more highly by those in Australia for his performances in the NRL than here for his performances in Super League. He did seem to go up a notch as a player in that environment.

I think players like Cooper going to Australia and holding their own have shown that many SL forwards could do likewise.

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The comments about the ref are laughable and consistent with any match thread involving Saints this year. If you're the dominant team, you get the 50/50s, but also everyone else wants you to lose. We really need two refs because reffing the ruck is a lottery, but that was the only complaint to be made about the ref really.

Congratulations to Salford and their fans on the season they've had. I think it's a mark of the respect they've earned that yesterday each of their players was applauded off the field by the Saints fans. I think they will struggle next year losing Hastings, Jones and Bibby, but as long as they have Watson, they're in with a shout.

Great game to watch live, really good atmosphere and a very quick, high quality game. I also didn't see any crowd trouble or even many people who were too drunk.

Thompson was unreal, him and Papalli are the best props in the world at the minute. Makinson was so tough to play 40 minutes with a dislocated shoulder and still carry the ball well. Thought Percival and Coote were particularly good too. Chuffed for Lomax too after the amount of injuries he has had too. Great to finally see a dominant year capped off with a Grand Final win too.

Lastly, a word on Holbrook. He has revitalised our team, our style of play and the club's relationship with the community. It's been my favourite season supporting Saints, and I would have said that even without a Grand Final win. Absolute champion bloke. Woolf has a lot to live up to next year!

 

 

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1 minute ago, Saint 1 said:

The comments about the ref are laughable and consistent with any match thread involving Saints this year. If you're the dominant team, you get the 50/50s, but also everyone else wants you to lose. 

Has a Saints fan really had the audacity to say this? A club that going all the way from fan to coach to chairman had an epic dummy spit when they lost the Challenge Cup Final. In the process bringing the game into disrepute and questioning the integrity of officials.

I'd love to think that the undue pressure that the Saints club as a whole put on the officials after the Challenge Cup Final had nothing to do with the choice of referee for last night or what we saw with the sheer amount of calls going Saints way. What we do know though for certainty is that all referees now know the consequences of giving just one decision against Saints in a major game.

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Saints were probably always going to win that game as they were the better team on day. They were faster with the ball and much better at slowing the play the ball. I thought Kendall was terrible and made far too many dodgy decisions that seemed to benefit saints more than Salford. On another note, we happened to be sat with quite a few none RL fans due to being lucky enough to be in hospitality, was a shame to see hardly any could be bothered coming out for the second half but obviously they weren’t interested in the match.

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16 minutes ago, Damien said:

I always got the impression that Cooper was rated more highly by those in Australia for his performances in the NRL than here for his performances in Super League. He did seem to go up a notch as a player in that environment.

I think players like Cooper going to Australia and holding their own have shown that many SL forwards could do likewise.

Cooper was a decent player in SL who is still a decent player in SL. He did well in the NRL and international level.

I have no issues with stating that Chris Hill is a far better player, despite not 'proving it' in the NRL.

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Granted most of the individuals who have gone there have performed admirably, Luke would have to proove himself in that company, others like your own Mike Cooper who personally I think is one of our better props in SL didn't quite hack it, it is up to the individuals.

And I would also comment on the Aussie forwards who come over here, hand on heart David do you consider we have the best they can offer? In the main the Aussie player's (any position) we get in the UK are surplus to requirement in the NRL, you will be able to point at a small number and say what about such a body, that is  granted, but just to put your comparison in respect, you can bet those forwards of ours over there will be present international player's, the best we can offer, that does not reciprocate itself with those who come here from Aus, for whatever the reason they do not come.

In what way did Mike Cooper not hack it. He went from a solid forward in SL to being a solid forward in the NRL. 

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59 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

It's all about perpective David, if a lowly ranked international 400 meter runner was competing against a club runner in a one lap race he would undoubtedly look very fast, now pitch that same guy in a World or Olympic final and he would be nowhere near at the finish probably finishing yards behind.

I really want our guy's to be the best, but to do that they have to compete against the best and prove themselves in that company, of all the high profile guy's who have gone from our shore's to the NRL never once have I heard them say I am going for the money, it is always I want to proove myself with and against the best. 

I think we are all capable of recognising talented players, I spend a lot of time watching the community game, and the conversation often gets round to the quality of a particular player and of how good or great he is, but again putting that into perspective we are measuring him against his contemporaries, the 'great' accolade we have given him, we know would not be as relevant if he made the next step up in competing at a higher level, he would have to proove himself at that level.

Didn't he play well in a 3 Test series against the Kiwi's last year, or do you not class that as top level.

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47 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Jamie Peacock didnt go to the NRL but I have no issues with describing him as one of the best forwards in world Rugby.

You should back your judgement a bit more.

 

47 minutes ago, Damien said:

I always got the impression that Cooper was rated more highly by those in Australia for his performances in the NRL than here for his performances in Super League. He did seem to go up a notch as a player in that environment.

I think players like Cooper going to Australia and holding their own have shown that many SL forwards could do likewise.

On both counts JP very very good David, and agree with you Damien many SL forwards could do likewise, but the initial post I respounded to was Oliver's statement " There can't be many better props on the planet" my reaction to that was and it would be the same for any sport is the best way to find that out is to compete against the best,  in my opinion in RL that is in the NRL, or on the International stage, like I said Luke Thompson is going to be up against some very formidable forward opponents in the next 5 weeks, that in ny opinion is going to be a far better measuring tool and gauge than a season in SL and Ireally want to see him come through the other side on top of them all. 

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1 hour ago, Saint 1 said:

The comments about the ref are laughable and consistent with any match thread involving Saints this year. If you're the dominant team, you get the 50/50s, but also everyone else wants you to lose.

 

53 minutes ago, Damien said:

Has a Saints fan really had the audacity to say this? A club that going all the way from fan to coach to chairman had an epic dummy spit when they lost the Challenge Cup Final. In the process bringing the game into disrepute and questioning the integrity of officials.

I'd love to think that the undue pressure that the Saints club as a whole put on the officials after the Challenge Cup Final had nothing to do with the choice of referee for last night or what we saw with the sheer amount of calls going Saints way. What we do know though for certainty is that all referees now know the consequences of giving just one decision against Saints in a major game.

Couldn't have put it better.

Saints were incredibly dominant for the first 30. Then Salford finally got into the game and were making it a great contest.

In the second half, Salford had no chance to build momentum due mostly to Saints' excellent performances but also in part to some poor decisions by Kendall that pulled the rug from under then any time they started to build.

The Saints offload that was given as a strip (and want even a knock on anyway, so could have just played on) was poor, only compounded by a similar if not more obvious strip moments later that was also given in Saints favour as a knock on rather than a strip. Those led to points IIRC.

Then the shoulder charge that caused a knock on early in a Salford set. Blatantly obvious.

The worst was when Salford finally had something look like it was going for them with a 40-20, only to have it snatched away instantly with a disgraceful knock on decision that was blatant interference.

I just couldn't get into the game as a contest in the second half because it wasn't one. You knew it was all Saints, and any Salford momentum would be cut away fairly quickly. It was incredibly frustrating to watch.

But let's not make comments about the ref... it's laughable! I know who won't be making comments about the ref: the Saints' chairman.

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1 hour ago, Saint 1 said:

The comments about the ref are laughable and consistent with any match thread involving Saints this year. If you're the dominant team, you get the 50/50s, but also everyone else wants you to lose. We really need two refs because reffing the ruck is a lottery, but that was the only complaint to be made about the ref really.

 

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Has a Saints fan really had the audacity to say this? A club that going all the way from fan to coach to chairman had an epic dummy spit when they lost the Challenge Cup Final. In the process bringing the game into disrepute and questioning the integrity of officials.

I'd love to think that the undue pressure that the Saints club as a whole put on the officials after the Challenge Cup Final had nothing to do with the choice of referee for last night or what we saw with the sheer amount of calls going Saints way. What we do know though for certainty is that all referees now know the consequences of giving just one decision against Saints in a major game.

 

26 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Couldn't have put it better.

Saints were incredibly dominant for the first 30. Then Salford finally got into the game and were making it a great contest.

In the second half, Salford had no chance to build momentum due mostly to Saints' excellent performances but also in part to some poor decisions by Kendall that pulled the rug from under then any time they started to build.

The Saints offload that was given as a strip (and want even a knock on anyway, so could have just played on) was poor, only compounded by a similar if not more obvious strip moments later that was also given in Saints favour as a knock on rather than a strip. Those led to points IIRC.

Then the shoulder charge that caused a knock on early in a Salford set. Blatantly obvious.

The worst was when Salford finally had something look like it was going for them with a 40-20, only to have it snatched away instantly with a disgraceful knock on decision that was blatant interference.

I just couldn't get into the game as a contest in the second half because it wasn't one. You knew it was all Saints, and any Salford momentum would be cut away fairly quickly. It was incredibly frustrating to watch.

But let's not make comments about the ref... it's laughable! I know who won't be making comments about the ref: the Saints' chairman.

One hilarious post quickly followed by two spot on posts.

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         SL Steve Prescott Man of Steel 2016 - Danny Houghton  SL Top Gun 2016/2017 - Marc Sneyd (83%/89% goal success)

         SL Hit Man 2016/2017 - Danny Houghton (1,289/1,123 tackles)  SL Club of the Year 2016 - Hull FC

         SL Coach of the Year 2016 - Lee Radford   RL Challenge Cup Winners 2016/2017 - Hull FC

 

                                                                      All in all, not a bad couple of years, I suppose...

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Although I thought Shed Seven were quite enjoyable last night, why wasn't Eamonn McManus consulted over the choice of pre match entertainment?

Surely Duran Duran belting out "My own way" with images of Robert Elstone and Robert Hicks appearing on the big screen during the rendition would have been entirely appropriate.

 

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         SL Steve Prescott Man of Steel 2016 - Danny Houghton  SL Top Gun 2016/2017 - Marc Sneyd (83%/89% goal success)

         SL Hit Man 2016/2017 - Danny Houghton (1,289/1,123 tackles)  SL Club of the Year 2016 - Hull FC

         SL Coach of the Year 2016 - Lee Radford   RL Challenge Cup Winners 2016/2017 - Hull FC

 

                                                                      All in all, not a bad couple of years, I suppose...

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2 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

 

Couldn't have put it better.

Saints were incredibly dominant for the first 30. Then Salford finally got into the game and were making it a great contest.

In the second half, Salford had no chance to build momentum due mostly to Saints' excellent performances but also in part to some poor decisions by Kendall that pulled the rug from under then any time they started to build.

The Saints offload that was given as a strip (and want even a knock on anyway, so could have just played on) was poor, only compounded by a similar if not more obvious strip moments later that was also given in Saints favour as a knock on rather than a strip. Those led to points IIRC.

Then the shoulder charge that caused a knock on early in a Salford set. Blatantly obvious.

The worst was when Salford finally had something look like it was going for them with a 40-20, only to have it snatched away instantly with a disgraceful knock on decision that was blatant interference.

I just couldn't get into the game as a contest in the second half because it wasn't one. You knew it was all Saints, and any Salford momentum would be cut away fairly quickly. It was incredibly frustrating to watch.

But let's not make comments about the ref... it's laughable! I know who won't be making comments about the ref: the Saints' chairman.

Spot on Wellsy, my sentiments entirely and it worked in reverse for Saints they were allowed to keep momentum going, one instance in particular 60,000 pair of eye's in the stadium and everyone watching TV saw Reagan Grace jump in the tackle every one who knows anything about the game is aware that is a penalty offence, had Evalds not managed to keep old one can only assume Mr Kendall would have allowed play to continue and awarded what would have been a certain try, I am not saying Mr Kendall cheated, that decision went along with the other inept decisions he made during the game.

That is not ref bashing on my part, it is my interpretation of a bad day at the office for Mr Kendall.

 

Edited by Harry Stottle
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26 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

 

 

One hilarious post quickly followed by two spot on posts.

I'd say the reverse was true.

 

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58 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

But let's not make comments about the ref... it's laughable! I know who won't be making comments about the ref: the Saints' chairman.

It’s impossible not to make comments about officials in sport , and anyone who’s self righteous and says it’s terrible criticising is usually a hypocrite coz everyone does it , and if they don’t i tip my hat they’re , err , a saint ...

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16 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Come on man, it's ok to say the ref has made some bad calls but let's not call him a Scumbag.

You are right. This was not a nice thing to write. My apologies to the TRL board (and the ref), I completely overstepped the mark with this post and some of my others last night. I was watching the game in my local over a few ales, which is in a non heartland area and just wanted a close game (with a tight Salford win). 

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21 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I'd say the reverse was true.

Nah, that can't be right.

That would mean Saint 1's post and Damien's post criticising it were spot on followed by Wellsy's hilarious post.

It just doesn't work.

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         SL Steve Prescott Man of Steel 2016 - Danny Houghton  SL Top Gun 2016/2017 - Marc Sneyd (83%/89% goal success)

         SL Hit Man 2016/2017 - Danny Houghton (1,289/1,123 tackles)  SL Club of the Year 2016 - Hull FC

         SL Coach of the Year 2016 - Lee Radford   RL Challenge Cup Winners 2016/2017 - Hull FC

 

                                                                      All in all, not a bad couple of years, I suppose...

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I'm not usually one to comment on referees, but I'll make an exception here. Firstly, I will caveat this post by saying that I was at the game last night. From what I saw, there were no obvious howlers. I am not saying that Kendall made no errors, just that they were not obvious in the stadium.

The majority of complaints seem to relate to decisions such as ball steals etc. For those criticising decisions like that, I'll ask one simple question. When did you see it ? Was it on first view or after a super-slow mo replay?

What is also interesting is the level of comment on the ref. Here, pages and pages of comment on decisions that were made after Saints went 18-6 up after 50 minutes. Of course, you will all know that only one side has ever overturned a 12 point deficit in a Grand Final. And the focus seemed to be on technical decisions like ball steals.

Meanwhile, for the cup final, about two comments on an incorrectly disallowed try, just take a look at the thread - 

We had some tough calls in that game, but I would never dream of launching into the level abuse that I have seen in the last day or so aimed at Kendall. To say a decision is poor or critique a referee is fine, but abuse is becoming commonplace. It is an embarrassment to the people who post it, but even worse it shames the sport.

And it is not just fans. Players sounding off on Twitter too. They are the representatives of our game and that's all they can think to post. The irony being a lot of these players are ones who have made far more mistakes and on a far more consistent basis than any Super League referee. We complain about the state of the sport yet in the same breath, seek to weaken it ourselves.

More importantly, on Thursday, it was World Mental Health day. Universally, people now say about how important it is to speak out and offering compassion to those same people. Not two days later, those same people, mainly on Twitter, but sadly too on here are all to quick to launch into vitriolic personal abuse and nonsense allegations. And again, that included many players.

I mean, we struggle to attract referees as it is. But just imaging a young person thinking about becoming a referee? After last night, some of those may have had second thoughts. Why would you want to put yourself through that? And the comments from fans and players filter down to amateur and junior level. I cannot imagine the levels of intimidation that those young referees (some of them children themselves) face, without the protection that referees at the top level have.

I hope some people look back at what they posted last night and feel a degree of shame. We say we are interested in the welfare of those who take part in our sport. We should remember that this includes referees and mental wellbeing should be at the forefront of our minds at all times, not just when it suits.

Edited by Chris22
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3 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

I'm not usually one to comment on referees, but I'll make an exception here. Firstly, I will caveat this post by saying that I was at the game last night. From what I saw, there were no obvious howlers. I am not saying that Kendall made no errors, just that they were not obvious in the stadium.

The majority of complaints seem to relate to decisions such as ball steals etc. For those criticising decisions like that, I'll ask one simple question. When did you see it ? Was it on first view or after a super-slow mo replay?

What is also interesting is the level of comment on the ref. Here, pages and pages of comment on decisions that were made after Saints went 18-6 up after 50 minutes. Of course, you will all know that only one side has ever overturned a 12 point deficit in a Grand Final. And the focus seemed to be on technical decisions like ball steals.

For the cup final, about two comments on an incorrectly disallowed try. Take a look at the thread.

We had some tough calls in that game, but I would never dream of launching into the level abuse that I have seen in the last day or so aimed at Kendall. It is an embarrassment to the people who post it, but even worse it shames the sport.

And it is not just fans. Players sounding off on Twitter too. They are the representatives of our game and that's all they can think to post. The irony being a lot of these players are ones who have made far more mistakes and on a far more consistent basis than any Super League referee. We complain about the state of the sport yet in the same breath, seek to weaken it ourselves.

More importantly, on Thursday, it was World Mental Health day. Universally, people now say about how important it is to speak out and offering compassion to those same people. Not two days later, those same people, mainly on Twitter, but sadly too on here are all to quick to launch into vitriolic personal abuse and nonsense allegations. And again, that included many players

I hope some people look back at what they posted last night and feel a degree of shame. We say we are interested in the welfare of those who take part in our sport. We should remember that this includes referees and mental wellbeing should be at the forefront of our minds at all times, not just when it suits.

I dont think there is much wrong with being critical of a ref. Sport is a talked about thing and people will have views on refs, players, coaches etc. being critical of their performance is all part of the game and sport in general. 

Abuse, or a Chairman suggesting corruption is more serious and should absolutely be clamped down on for the reasons you state.

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