The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, wiganermike said:

I won't try to pretend that arrangement is fair but did TWP actually have to pay out anything in this regard this year? As far as I can see they flew to the UK at the start of pre-season and stayed here. No-one has travelled to Canada to play them this year.

Nail hit very firmly on the head.

One correction though Mike, they didn't fly here en-bloc most of tge player's were already at home in their own beds.

[Marauder]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Obviously you have never been to Leigh Sports Village,  it is much much more than just a very adequate stadium.

Parking is as bad if not worse than post office road with the traffic wardens

[Marauder]

9 hours ago, wiganermike said:

The stadium move is intended to be a long term one I believe to allow them to have a SL ready stadium should they achieve promotion.

I guessed that you were basing the player score on the relative squad strengths but I would imagine that if a panel were choosing a 12th club that the active academies would raise the scores of the others I mentioned. Similarly Fev may get marked down due to their DR arrangement (though I don't know how much they rely on it rather than their own squad without DR).

I do think it's slightly unfair to effectively mark London down twice for their crowds though. While true that the crowds may affect sustainability without David Hughes' money the same argument of reliance on the owner could be made against most clubs at all levels. Leigh had their own wobble not too long ago when DB was considering his involvement.

So if all the clubs being mentioned for promotion only need a little tweaking to be the best applicant to make the slot for super league, let throw a curved ball in the mix, Doncaster, they only need an Arab billionaire

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

Koukash involved now. Maybe he'd have more credibility if his Liverpool project got further than a launch and nothing more. Another chancer attached to the sport.

Involved with what, TWP??

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Playing nice doesn't seem to have accomplished anything with SL. Time to play hardball.

Go for it TIWIT, what do you propose? 

[Robin Evans]

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Involved with what, TWP??

Its the notion that Koukash is a chancer that tickled me..... 

Nahaboo was a chancer though i didn't necessarily see it until it was almost too late.... thankfully Campbell did.

At least koukash emptied his wallet

[RigbyLuger]

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Involved with what, TWP??

The Derek Beaumont tweets. Two peas in a pod.

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

I'm sure there should be a plus point for owning your own stadium too. This reduces the threat of the ultimate owners pulling the plug.

So that's Leigh, Tolouse, Bradford, London and possibly *Widnes downgraded then.

*Widnes Vikings have been saved from liquidation after administrators brought in to sell the Championship club agreed a deal with a local consortium.

A new holding company, Widnes Rugby League Club Limited, has already been registered with Companies House and it is understood two supporters will be given places on the board.

The club say members of the local consortium are Chris Price, Jason Shaw, Roger Harrison MBE, Stuart Murphy, David Dean, Tracey Glendinning and Rod Steele. The change of ownership is expected to be ratified on Friday.

[Blind side johnny]

9 hours ago, The Rocket said:

You`ve got to think big, you have got to be positive, you have to have ago, no excuses.

There is a thing called on-selling, broadcasters use it all the time.

Alternatively there is a thing called broadcast partnerships.

You have got to think big.....

DeLorean comes to mind.

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, wiganermike said:

Toulouse have moved grounds. As someone (can't remember who) posted they now play at the Ernest Wallon the RU club's stadium.

I know Bradford are mid table Championship but considering they have a fully functioning academy system how are they lower than Leigh on the player score? Likewise London (though they are regular promotion contenders) and Widnes, all three have produced players recently that are now in SL and are capable of producing players for themselves and the wider pro/semi pro game. The player score would surely consider more than the men in the first team squad. Also how is London's money man less valued than Leigh's? He supported a SL squad for longer than DB has.

If there was a Wigan, Saints and Warrington on the doorstep of London would there Academy still be so fruitful, alternatively if Leigh did not have those 3 on their doorstep would they not have a thriving academy.

Leigh has always been a town with a good amateur scene you simply avoid that respect, Leigh also produces many lads that go to the academies of other clubs and onto better things, Leigh Centurions not long ago did have an academy but it wasn't in SL and fixtures were sparse so it was abandoned which for the fore mentioned reason's benefitted other club's.

Do you think for one moment if it was a requirenent for SL entry the owner would not finance it, in doing so it would be no different than Mr Hughes at London, or Messer's Leneghan, Moran, McManus et al. But don't let that get in way of your deliberations.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If there was a Wigan, Saints and Warrington on the doorstep of London would there Academy still be so fruitful

Seems like you're coming round to the expansionist logic now Harry! 

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, wiganermike said:

That selection panel deliberation, in producing their opinions of such ratings, is the process for elevation to SL that people are discussing.

Let's call it "Framing the Future" got quite a ring to it don't you think.

In all seriousness the criteria used would have to be visible to all and graded in an appropriate manner, anything other would create cries of 'foul'.

Who would be your selection commitee, that could be deemed to have no ulterior motive in the selection process, do you think the powers that be can afford another shambles like the last selection process when they let three clubs into SL on the promise of stadium improvement/new stadium, Salford took 5 years to acheive that, 13 years on we are still awaiting for the other two!

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I blame all TWP's troubles on Leigh. They are positively diabolical and have been plotting TWP's downfall ever since Argyle spurned them. Diabolical I tell you!

Wow, 21st Century David and Goliath.

Little town of 45,000 Takes on Super Metropolis of 6 million plus and topples it.

Pssss say it quietly, it was actually the other way around, Toronto approached Leigh early 2014 but Mr B saw through the Charlatan who wanted to buy him out and sent him on his way.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I assume he was being generous

Has it been a long time since you visited Wheldon Road AT.

[wiganermike]

18 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If there was a Wigan, Saints and Warrington on the doorstep of London would there Academy still be so fruitful, alternatively if Leigh did not have those 3 on their doorstep would they not have a thriving academy.

Leigh has always been a town with a good amateur scene you simply avoid that respect, Leigh also produces many lads that go to the academies of other clubs and onto better things, Leigh Centurions not long ago did have an academy but it wasn't in SL and fixtures were sparse so it was abandoned which for the fore mentioned reason's benefitted other club's.

Do you think for one moment if it was a requirenent for SL entry the owner would not finance it, in doing so it would be no different than Mr Hughes at London, or Messer's Leneghan, Moran, McManus et al. But don't let that get in way of your deliberations.

I wasn't suggesting that Leigh be marked down just that in some areas that I thought that the poster I replied to had scored some of the other clubs lower than I think is warranted in comparison with his ratings for Leigh (his own club). I was then explaining the reasoning behind my view. I imagine if Leigh were to have a sustained run in SL that they would establish an academy as there are a few strong community clubs in Leigh from which to source players. Back in the late 70s and early 80s Wigan used to lose lots of Wigan born players from the community clubs to other more successful clubs and that stopped when success began to return for Wigan. I'm too young to really remember that but I know it did happen. Of course a return to the top tier for a few seasons rather than just one could result in more of the Leigh born lads choosing their home town club as it happened with Wigan.

Your last paragraph I covered in a subsequent reply. Almost all (if not all) clubs at all levels would struggle without their money man. That's why I thought it was unfair to rank David Hughes contribution below that of Derek Beaumont or any other owner putting in their own cash for that matter. The poster I replied to rationalised that he was marking London lower as DH has to cover shortfall from smaller crowds. As crowd support is a separate category being ranked I pointed out that he was unfairly penalising London twice for their crowds, which he was. Again I wasn't suggesting that he had scored Leigh too highly or that DB wouldn't fund Leigh in SL just that he was unfairly marking down a rival (possibly to further his argument for his own club's case).

[Kayakman]

10 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Some people are just ignorant to a helping hand H.

Do you really think SL would kick Toronto out...are they that obtuse?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Well H its the exact opposite of that (almost to the precise numbers) but ho hum.

Oh dear, I don't associate you with juvenile answers Tommy.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, RigbyLuger said:

The Derek Beaumont tweets. Two peas in a pod.

I would absolutely love them to team up at Leigh, it almost happened once I believe.

That would really Pi$$ off a lot of people wouldn't it.

[Harry Stottle]

53 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Seems like you're coming round to the expansionist logic now Harry! 

Not at all Tommy, I would no sooner go to watch my 'Big Three' neighbour's that any foreign team.

[Eddie]

27 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Do you really think SL would kick Toronto out...are they that obtuse?

I think they would, they’ve never wanted them in the first place. and it would be a crying shame for the game. 

[wiganermike]

30 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Let's call it "Framing the Future" got quite a ring to it don't you think.

In all seriousness the criteria used would have to be visible to all and graded in an appropriate manner, anything other would create cries of 'foul'.

Who would be your selection commitee, that could be deemed to have no ulterior motive in the selection process, do you think the powers that be can afford another shambles like the last selection process when they let three clubs into SL on the promise of stadium improvement/new stadium, Salford took 5 years to acheive that, 13 years on we are still awaiting for the other two!

Selecting a panel from within the sport without having some aspect of bias attached to it is going to be difficult. I think a process whereby the RFL select two panellists, the SL clubs select two and the non-SL clubs select two could help reduce the risk of self interest. I would then have the six panellists examine the prospective clubs and make their assessments and give each a score for each category independently. These collective scores would then be pooled and average ratings determined. The average ratings along with summaries of each panellists comments could then form dossiers with the names of clubs, reference to location and other identifying information removed. Those anonymous dossiers could then be passed onto a separate panel consisting of representatives of RFL Board, SL Executive and Sky (as the broadcast partner) who would deliberate and select the best option with reference to which club it is removed.

Either that or if possible use an independent body (not from NH RL) to assess the clubs and a body such as Court of Arbitration for Sport to make the decision.

I do think deciding on-field in a competition would be a better and less contentious/biased method than a selection panel choosing a club but that if a selection panel route is the method chosen, that a selected panel of officials making the decision as Gary Hetherington suggested would be better than the SL clubs making the choice. I don't think we would need to debate for very long whether the SL clubs had demonstrated self interest were they to choose who to have as club 12.

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Do you really think SL would kick Toronto out...are they that obtuse?

It is very possible, and most probable that will happen. 

Be real K'man, RL in the UK is not a rich sport Mr Argyle suggestions just makes SL clubs poorer, a suggestion that you should be canvassing your club to do if you want to play with the big boy's of the sport is to apply and hopefully join the NRL, I am sure you could be accommodated just as you were in League 1 and the Championship were TWP played all their away games en bloc, then played all their home games in Toronto, all that would  be required is to employ all Australian player's so they can reside at home for their 'home' fixtures.

Oh and you would most probably require a TV deal in Canada to either live on or supplement the NRL funding.You see not much changes.

[wiganermike]

20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I would absolutely love them to team up at Leigh, it almost happened once I believe.

That would really Pi$$ off a lot of people wouldn't it.

A fair proportion of those antagonised would be Leigh supporters if his time at Salford is anything to go off. I think Koukash would only be effective as the most silent of silent partners.

[wiganermike]

36 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Do you really think SL would kick Toronto out...are they that obtuse?

The impression I get from the articles I have read since the meeting last Thursday where Argyle made his pitch is that the SL clubs and perhaps SL Board are not keen on them being in SL but that Ralph Rimmer and the RFL are more understanding of the issues that have forced the withdrawal and supportive of keeping them in the league structure. Whether the SL clubs had largely made up their minds ahead of that meeting or after it is up for debate but it has been reported that his pitch wasn't well received so that may have swayed any waverers against TWP. It has been stated that more anger is caused by the timing of the withdrawal than anything else.

I expect going off what is being reported that TWP will be demoted to the Championship for 2021. The issues of central funding, player development and ownership of TWP from 2021 onward and any conditions attached could determine whether or not that is accepted.

[sweaty craiq]

12 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

A fair proportion of those antagonised would be Leigh supporters if his time at Salford is anything to go off. I think Koukash would only be effective as the most silent of silent partners.

Without the Doc there would be no Salford, he carried on bailing them out after he 'went'.