The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Spidey]

I couldn’t be bothered checking crowds hence why all 3s

Anyways that’s just my take on it - I’ll be naturally biased towards Widnes. But can’t see past Toulouse being SL I’m waiting 

[Lowdesert]

38 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Only way that will happen is if another club goes pop. More likely they'll stick with 11 but I don't believe that will happen either. As Hetherington says, this is an opportunity. With Toulouse in, and a French game at home every week, a French TV deal is a much easier sell.

I’m amazed GH has come up with this.  It will pee off their DR partner, Fev.

[Lowdesert]

9 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I couldn’t be bothered checking crowds hence why all 3s

Anyways that’s just my take on it - I’ll be naturally biased towards Widnes. But can’t see past Toulouse being SL I’m waiting 

Your formula is most likely the one SL will use then!

[gittinsfan]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Either Toronto are in SL next year or they are out, SL goes with 11 or promotes a team either by selection or by earning it on the field of play.

Just make a bloody decision, whichever they go for somebody is going to be upset but get it done.

But Harry,the RFL have made a decision.There will be an October comp foe Champ and L1 clubs with NO promotion for the winners.They would look rather silly if they change their minds again.

[Gerrumonside ref]

Are Toulouse a definite favourite to replace Toronto?

Could travel issues around Coronavirus not affect them too?

I would have thought so myself.

[Eddie]

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Are Toulouse a definite favourite to replace Toronto?

Could travel issues around Coronavirus not affect them too?

I would have thought so myself.

Plus why are they preferred (in people’s minds) to stronger English championship clubs? I’m sure most of us would like to see another French team in SL (for me a 16 team SL) but anyone who thinks big French TV companies are going to scrapping to show SL because they’ve got two small teams in it must be kidding themselves. I’d just as happily see Widnes or York get promoted, both well supported clubs with great stadiums. 
 

If I could pick my preferred 16 teams to be in SL (based on merit on the pitch, so they’d have to be promoted), I’d go;

 

Saints, Wigan, Wire, Widnes, Salford

Leeds, Bradford, Hull, Cas, York

Newcastle, London, Sheffield

Toronto, Catalans, AN other French team  

 

[Blind side johnny]

5 hours ago, The Rocket said:

When the RLF sit down with the broadcasters next year and say we have got a competition with teams established in one other country ( France & the Catalans) with the possible addition of another club Toulouse and the expansion into another continent with the possibility of two teams, whom we are committed to help despite significant challenges,  then we will talk about  Intangible benefits and cost/benefit analysis. 

Blind Freddy can see what broadcasters will want . 

Over here we call them our Broadcast partners. Both want to grow the game.

Blind Freddy might be interested to know that the broadcaster (only really one in the game at present) has no broadcasting rights in either Canada or France.

Jam tomorrow is never a great option, unless you are a politician.

[Blind side johnny]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Either Toronto are in SL next year or they are out, SL goes with 11 or promotes a team either by selection or by earning it on the field of play.

Just make a bloody decision, whichever they go for somebody is going to be upset but get it done.

I feel your frustration Harry but that is really insufficient reason for making sudden decisions. Do we all know what the implications might be of any of the possible scenarios, and here I am thinking about any legal claims that any parties might decide that they have? I would expect those within the RFL to be making sure that they have the best possible independent advice before reaching any conclusion.

[Blind side johnny]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

And it benefits no one, Mr Arglye we are informed made his presentation to the RFL and SL last Thursday, with what we are lead to believe was an ultimatum of give us the funding, which was reported that was not recieved very well.

I have not heard that there is any follow up meeting to further discuss the situation or announce a decision, as you say the longer it goes the sillier it seems.

I would have thought that you would be the first to be informed Harry so, if you have heard nothing, then they must be sitting on their hands.

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

My mini licencing analysis based on the above would have clubs as follows, with probably Toulouse getting the nod (if TWP not available):

	Finance	Commerce	Stadium	Crowd	Players	Score
Toulouse	5	5	3	3	3	19
Widnes	3	3	5	3	5	19
Leigh	5	3	5	3	1	17
London	3	5	1	3	5	17
Bradford	3	3	1	3	5	15
Featherstone	3	3	1	3	1	11

Interesting.

In LE Widnes are giving the strongest indications that they have serious financial difficulties once more so you might want to look at that score again.

[wiganermike]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

I see that the runaway leader there is Exclude them from all RFL competitions with 39% of the votes.

Statistics such as these where multiple options exist can be interpreted in different ways to support the intended/desired outcome of any individual viewing them. A snapshot of the voting as I type this has (with slight rounding up/down of numbers)

In SL with funding 23%

In SL with no funding 5%

In SL with a fine 3%

Demote to Championship 20.5%

Demote to League 1 10%

Expel altogether 38.5%

From those you can draw conclusions that 1. the most popular option is to expel them altogether (38.5%) or 2. that more people want to keep the club within the leagues (61.5%) than don't, 3. that more people want to have them in SL (31%) than in either of the lower leagues (30.5%), 4. that the majority of people want to see them punished (77%), 5. that most people don't want them in SL (69%).

There is no clear majority (i.e 50.1% or more) for any single option but I would interpret that snapshot of figures as most people surveyed being happy to keep TWP within the RFL/SL league structure but wanting to see some form of sanction against them with the club beginning 2021 in either SL or the Championship. The issue of whether more people or fewer people support them being given funding than do not is unclear as it not clear whether those preferring demotion as a sanction would be supportive of them receiving funding as 'demotion but with funding' did not exist as an option. Others may interpret those numbers differently based on their own viewpoint.

[Big Picture]

21 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Blind Freddy might be interested to know that the broadcaster (only really one in the game at present) has no broadcasting rights in either Canada or France.

Jam tomorrow is never a great option, unless you are a politician.

Yes they do in the case of Canada, they sold them on to Sportsnet and apparently for peanuts.

[Big Picture]

3 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

Statistics such as these where multiple options exist can be interpreted in different ways to support the intended/desired outcome of any individual viewing them. A snapshot of the voting as I type this has (with slight rounding up/down of numbers)

In SL with funding 23%

In SL with no funding 5%

In SL with a fine 3%

Demote to Championship 20.5%

Demote to League 1 10%

Expel altogether 38.5%

From those you can draw conclusions that 1. the most popular option is to expel them altogether (38.5%) or 2. that more people want to keep the club within the leagues (61.5%) than don't, 3. that more people want to have them in SL (31%) than in either of the lower leagues (30.5%), 4. that the majority of people want to see them punished (77%).

There is no clear majority (i.e 50.1% or more) for any single option but I would interpret that snapshot of figures as most people surveyed being happy to keep TWP within the RFL/SL league structure but wanting to see some form of sanction against them with the club beginning 2021 in either SL or the Championship. The issue of whether more people or fewer people support them being given funding than do not is unclear as it not clear whether those preferring demotion as a sanction would be supportive of them receiving funding as 'demotion but with funding' did not exist as an option. Others may interpret those numbers differently based on their own viewpoint.

Most of those are other options are moot though, as Argyle has been clear that they can't afford to continue with no central funding and having to pay the other teams' expenses to fly over here.  Other than a few of the bigger SL clubs, which clubs over there can afford to pay their own way over?

[Spidey]

12 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Interesting.

In LE Widnes are giving the strongest indications that they have serious financial difficulties once more so you might want to look at that score again.

Already said I’m biased towards Widnes. What else do you want from a 5 min analysis.

You could always do your own......

[sweaty craiq]

He does say he went through the correct channels regarding an offer to complete TW fixtures this year and to go back to the Championship next year should TW restart, but is yet to receive a reply (RFL to a tee in my experience).

[ChoboMog]

3 hours ago, tuutaisrambo said:

Can't be bothered reading through 188 pages.  Last time I checked in Toronto were going to save Super League and turn the sport into an international powerhouse so just wondered how they are getting on? 

Seriously though have they lost all their funding or what?  going from funding themselves without a SL share of the central pot and spending more than the salary cap on one player, to not being able to afford to finish the season is one hell of a jump (even in these uncertain times).

If SL give them another go next season can they afford it? Aren't they asking the people of Toronto to chip in?
Transatlantic sport at championship level definitely isn't sustainable so as I fan of a championship club I'd rather they stayed in SL.

It's not so much that the team's "lost all their funding"...

Instead, there has been a combination of factors:

1. The TWP has been denied any central funding, received by other teams;
2. The TWP has been denied the opportunity to negotiate it's own TV deal thanks to our beloved Sky Sports selling off the North American TV rights for next to nothing;
3. The TWP has been denied the ability to furlough, during the Covid-19 shut down, and denied any/all government support from both the U.K. and Canadian governments, due to the team's dual national existence;
4. The TWP saw several top players unable to extend work visas, leaving them unable to stay in the U.K. and leaving the team simply uncompetitive until resolved;
5. The TWP was denied any/all financial assistance from the league, when requested as a loan; and
6. Covid-19 left the team unable to earn any revenue from gate/ticket sales.

It's one thing to expect further funding from a wealthy benefactor.  It's another thing entirely to combine all of the above and expect that pockets the investors' pockets are bottomless.

There is not a single team in the Super League which would survive this combination of challenges.  To expect an expansion team, in a fledgling (even if quickly developing) market, to do so is, simply, asinine.  The SL and RFL need to show some flexibility, and some business sense in developing new markets; but, perhaps, that is too much to ask.

[Big Picture]

3 minutes ago, SL17 said:

No. You have to realise he can’t afford his club.

I am well aware that he can't, because no one could afford it for long having to operate under those onerous terms.

[wiganermike]

7 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Most of those are other options are moot though, as Argyle has been clear that they can't afford to continue with no central funding and having to pay the other teams' expenses to fly over here.  Other than a few of the bigger SL clubs, which clubs over there can afford to pay their own way over?

Argyle said he would not fund them without an allocation from central funds. The general impression being reported is that Argyle is not likely to be the owner for much longer. He is reported to have not created a good impression during the meeting last Thursday. A change in ownership and focus for TWP may increase the likelihood of compromise on at least a proportion of funding. This is a poll run by TotalRL, who knows exactly what the RFL and SL are considering doing. For all we know one option being considered could be access to central funds being granted on condition of accepting demotion and a squad re-build.

[CanadianRugger]

13 minutes ago, ChoboMog said:

It's not so much that the team's "lost all their funding"...

Instead, there has been a combination of factors:

1. The TWP has been denied any central funding, received by other teams;
2. The TWP has been denied the opportunity to negotiate it's own TV deal thanks to our beloved Sky Sports selling off the North American TV rights for next to nothing;
3. The TWP has been denied the ability to furlough, during the Covid-19 shut down, and denied any/all government support from both the U.K. and Canadian governments, due to the team's dual national existence;
4. The TWP saw several top players unable to extend work visas, leaving them unable to stay in the U.K. and leaving the team simply uncompetitive until resolved;
5. The TWP was denied any/all financial assistance from the league, when requested as a loan; and
6. Covid-19 left the team unable to earn any revenue from gate/ticket sales.

It's one thing to expect further funding from a wealthy benefactor.  It's another thing entirely to combine all of the above and expect that pockets the investors' pockets are bottomless.

There is not a single team in the Super League which would survive this combination of challenges.  To expect an expansion team, in a fledgling (even if quickly developing) market, to do so is, simply, asinine.  The SL and RFL need to show some flexibility, and some business sense in developing new markets; but, perhaps, that is too much to ask.

Ralph Rimmer seems to get it from his interview he gave yesterday.

[Kayakman]

The ball is in their court...the free ride is over....their hand is being forced....the bluff has been called out into the open.....it will all work out in the end.

Ante up.

[ChoboMog]

6 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Ralph Rimmer seems to get it from his interview he gave yesterday.

That is somewhat reassuring.  Ralf Rimmer has seen, first hand, the success of the team, the game day experience, and the growth and excitement in a massive, new, untapped market.

He was able to see the 10000+ fans, he's heard the roar of the crowd, he knows they're not just cardboard cut-outs, and he's been on hand to see the Mayor, City Councillors, news cameras, massive lines for merchandise and food/drink etc.

Fingers crossed that his seemingly extremely positive personal experience will rub off on others who share a seat at the decision making table.

[Tommygilf]

20 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

He does say he went through the correct channels regarding an offer to complete TW fixtures this year and to go back to the Championship next year should TW restart, but is yet to receive a reply (RFL to a tee in my experience).

I mean this in the nicest possible way but thats unlikely to happen after 1 email. Firstly there's the fact that the RFL/SL would have to open up applications from all comers. Even then there would be the clear problem of what if the new addition didn't finish bottom come November, somehow I think Derek's opinion might have changed by then on his clubs status.

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

My mini licencing analysis based on the above would have clubs as follows, with probably Toulouse getting the nod (if TWP not available):

	Finance	Commerce	Stadium	Crowd	Players	Score
Toulouse	5	5	3	3	3	19
Widnes	3	3	5	3	5	19
Leigh	5	3	5	3	1	17
London	3	5	1	3	5	17
Bradford	3	3	1	3	5	15
Featherstone	3	3	1	3	1	11

How did you come up with a 1 for Featherstone's ground?

[CanadianRugger]

29 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

How did you come up with a 1 for Featherstone's ground?

Amen and genuinely surprised @Spidey  thinks Widnes and Leigh have a better stadium than Toulouse Olympique now that they are playing at Ernest-Wallon? 

Leigh does have a nice stadium but Ernest-Wallon most definitely has better facilities than either Stadium.  Conference Centre, Large Restaurant, Huge Fitness Facility, multiple practice pitches, far larger capacity.  The only thing it has against it is relative age but Stade Toulouse have kept it up to date.

[Loup]

56 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Most of those are other options are moot though, as Argyle has been clear that they can't afford to continue with no central funding and having to pay the other teams' expenses to fly over here.  Other than a few of the bigger SL clubs, which clubs over there can afford to pay their own way over?

Among all the last-minute dithering at the end of last season, as to whether Wolfpack would be eligible for SL entry and under what terms, this is the one that had me banging my head on the wall. That the SL teams denied the tv money is one thing - it would have been palatable if that money had been earmarked for their travel & accommodation expenses to Toronto and they'd still have had the money to buy premium breakfast sausages. But that they then stuck Wolfpack with all the travel & accommodation expenses on top of denying the funding, was rock bottom behaviour.

If the pandemic has deepened Wolfpack's financial woes, the seeds were sown months earlier by the very clubs who are now stroking their chin whiskers and pondering their fate.