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welshmagpie

What to do with South Wales?

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14 minutes ago, headtackle said:

I agree that WWR seem to have got the wrong location. Cardiff must surely be better just in terms of population 

Teams like WWR need a helping hand though. Each SL club should be forced to "adopt" a div 1 club and help them in a number of ways including:

- player loans / DR

- coaching

- inviting players to pre season training camps

- giving them an "on the road game" as part of a double header so the lower league players get to experience big stadia and crowds

- playing a pre season friendly at the div 1 club with a commitment to bring a few big names 

- advice re off field promotions and marketing

- help with promoting with local schools with high profile SL players attending

Just imagine if every div 1 team had an SL club as a mentor. Imagine if Sonny Bill visited town and went to a few schools. What about Regan Grace someone from the local scene who has made it big up north. Give West Wales a day out and chance to play as a curtain raiser to say Warrington/Saints. 

Would take a big change of mindset but SL clubs need to recognise there is life outside of SL and the more we do to develop the games as a while the bigger their share of the pie will be

 

 

 

 

 

Totally agree that they need more support.                                                                                                                                                            Most of the games administrators want the game to spread & thrive in 'non-heartland' areas - until it comes down to putting sustained long term resources, finance & planning into it. You only have to look at the long list of failed 'non-heartland' clubs to realise this. I'm not sure how much support they are given by the RFL but the impression you get is that (as usual) WWR are left to just get on with it with very little help/support from the RFL or other pro clubs. It's like a gardener chucking a few seeds on a bit of poor quality wasteland & hoping to come back in 18 months time expecting Kew Gardens to have sprung up.

Didn't the RFL have development officers operating in the South Wales area a few years ago, but the RFL scrapped the role? 
What about Wigans link up with WWR? That seems to have gone west. It's again just some examples of the complete lack of long term planning & support for any new 'non-heartland' club. What little support is offered seems to be amateurish off the cuff scraps here & there for 12 months or so. 

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50 minutes ago, Damien said:

I really don't know why some people always try to conflate these two issues. A salary cap does not stop a club going bust. Neither does not having one lead to a club going bust.

Fair point. Spending beyond your means however does lead to financial difficulty.

Hence why we have a salary cap.

I wonder why my local Sunday league football club did not sign Messi to solve the problem of recent poor results....

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3 minutes ago, Li0nhead said:

Fair point. Spending beyond your means however does lead to financial difficulty.

Hence why we have a salary cap.

I wonder why my local Sunday league football club did not sign Messi to solve the problem of recent poor results....

A salary cap does not stop a club spending beyond its means though, as we have seen on various occasions. 

Most on here also say we have a salary cap because of some misguided notion that it makes the league more competitive. 

It seems like no one can actually agree on the point of it.

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2 hours ago, Moscow01 said:

They must be the only semi-pro side in the world to have more off-field staff than players! 

C9A2A47D-6AF8-470C-937C-9A210FF39AF1.jpeg

Any thought that some of these roles might be volunteers giving their free time and the Raiders are making sure that their efforts are being recognised ?????

 

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3 minutes ago, Rach said:

Any thought that some of these roles might be volunteers giving their free time and the Raiders are making sure that their efforts are being recognised ?????

 

They are giving time freely and fair play the club are recognising their efforts.

However,the continuing issue remains on the field.

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If they continue in this vein for another 50-60 years, they will have earned the right to be classed as a real RL team and worthy of sympathy. Until then, we should point out where they are going wrong at every opportunity.

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14 minutes ago, Damien said:

A salary cap does not stop a club spending beyond its means though, as we have seen on various occasions. 

Most on here also say we have a salary cap because of some misguided notion that it makes the league more competitive. 

It seems like no one can actually agree on the point of it.

*Hits head against wall*

You want to show a more viable alternative to the current system, fully funded?

Seriously there are club bosses who would like you to show them how to do this.

Come on show us your figures.

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1 minute ago, Li0nhead said:

*Hits head against wall*

You want to show a more viable alternative to the current system, fully funded?

Seriously there are club bosses who would like you to show them how to do this.

Come on show us your figures.

What are you going on about? That makes absolutely no sense in the context of the discussion. 

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6 minutes ago, Damien said:

What are you going on about? That makes absolutely no sense in the context of the discussion. 

Do keep up.

If you look at my post. I responded to your post which I quoted.

I apologise for you not being able to follow.

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3 minutes ago, Li0nhead said:

Do keep up.

If you look at my post. I responded to your post which I quoted.

I apologise for you not being able to follow.

Which had nothing to do with my post. I think its you that needs to keep up. 

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2 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

Or scrap the salary cap so SL clubs can sign top welsh union players, promote rl and Wales RL more to try and get more kids playing rl

There is not enough money in Rugby League to sign top Welsh union players, and if we did there is no guarantee they would be a success, and who's to say the one's who become a success wouldn't return to union when there Rugby League contracts run out.

The future of Rugby League is junior development, not signing expensive union players

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Two linked issues non heartland teams face on the field - where do you get enough decent players from and how when there is no history of the game locally do you develop a RL culture amongst the players? The game is not just about technical skills and fitness. 

WWR problems are the same as Oxford's, Hemel and All Golds - where do you get the players from to be competitive in L1? This doesn't seem to be something the RFL really thinks about.  I have no doubt a decent team in south Wales could draw enough punters in, if they played in the right place. 

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1 hour ago, Moscow01 said:

Fair play to them for releasing these quotes but it all comes across as a team that doesn’t really know what it’s doing. 

452E0B41-2973-465F-8335-A301C9BC27AB.png

I’ll be honest, I’ve had little faith in Peter Tiffin for a while - doesn’t seem to allow the club to learn from past mistakes.

For what it’s worth he’s also head coach of Swansea University - who ironically are also struggling for players.

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

Which had nothing to do with my post. I think its you that needs to keep up. 

I apologise again for your lack of understanding.

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I think if there is to be a team in South Wales then it should be either in Cardiff or Newport.

Perhaps Newport might be the best place and maybe Newport Gwent Dragons(I think that is their name)could do what Newcastle Falcons have done who own Newcastle Thunder and I believe that club is developing at a healthy sustainable rate.

Newport Dragons RLFC perhaps?

And as a footnote if a RL club was set up in Bristol it could arouse some Anglo Welsh interest and a potential meaty Anglo Welsh inter city clash?

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30 minutes ago, Robthegasman said:

I think if there is to be a team in South Wales then it should be either in Cardiff or Newport.

Perhaps Newport might be the best place and maybe Newport Gwent Dragons(I think that is their name)could do what Newcastle Falcons have done who own Newcastle Thunder and I believe that club is developing at a healthy sustainable rate.

Newport Dragons RLFC perhaps?

And as a footnote if a RL club was set up in Bristol it could arouse some Anglo Welsh interest and a potential meaty Anglo Welsh inter city clash?

Newport wouldn’t work in the same vein as Newcastle purely because (I think) Rodney Parade is already shared between Newport County AFC, Newport Pro14 RU team and Newport Welsh Prem RU team. With the football team being a Football League side, there is zero chance of it being converted to an artificial pitch. 

A real shame though that WWR seem to have done a huge amount of work off-field, more so than a lot of heartland clubs if we’re honest, in securing their own facilities and clubhouse etc, yet they’re always going to struggle to attract players unless they can pay a sizeable relocation cost etc. 

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11 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Newport wouldn’t work in the same vein as Newcastle purely because (I think) Rodney Parade is already shared between Newport County AFC, Newport Pro14 RU team and Newport Welsh Prem RU team. With the football team being a Football League side, there is zero chance of it being converted to an artificial pitch. 

A real shame though that WWR seem to have done a huge amount of work off-field, more so than a lot of heartland clubs if we’re honest, in securing their own facilities and clubhouse etc, yet they’re always going to struggle to attract players unless they can pay a sizeable relocation cost etc. 

Fair points there.

 I think if there is to be any rugby league in South Wales then it certainly has to be in a major town or city and if not Newport then Cardiff,or even at a push Swansea.

Llanelli is probably the wrong place for a rugby league team.

I think if there was a rugby league club in South Wales that had a good backer and run properly then the game could do well enough there to stand on it’s own two feet.

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The South Wales team, outside of their first season, hasn't been a team associated with a lot of success, however they definitely were a lot more competitive in their earlier years when they were based out of the Gnoll, then since they've moved on. 

  • 2010: 6th out of 11 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2011: 8th out of 10 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2012: 9th out of 10 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2013: 8th out of 9 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2014: 9th out of 9 (Cynon Valley)
  • 2015: 14th out of 14 (Cynon Valley)
  • 2016: 13th out of 15 (Cynon Valley)
  • 2017: 15th out of 16 (Virginia Park)
  • 2018: 14th out of 14 (Llanelli)
  • 2019: 11th out of 11 (Llanelli)

Even in years like 2011 - 2013, they were getting 4 - 6 wins in the season, which shows a respectable level of competition.   They they were taken over by the Wales Rugby League, who purposely ran them as a club to develop talent, versus focusing on being competitive, up until 2017. 

Even in the WRL years, and the failed Ironman season, they were a lot more competitive on the field relative to the WWR, which just further supports what @welshmagpie has been saying, that they are now too far away from where all the development is happening in Wales. 

Outside of the Llanelli Knights, I can't really see any significant club, school, college or university action happening out west, which does make it really hard to build a competitive outfit and does make you want to say "let's move the club" to where the players at least are, and that would make them significantly move competitive overnight.

That said, considering the current investors appear to be fiscally sound and prepared to play the long game, it's hard to tell them they should give up or move the club... clearly these people want to run their own sports team in Llanelli, and we should be happy to have their dollars coming into League versus another sport.  

For me, if this is where the 'Pro Club' is going to be based in South Wales, there needs to be more of a coordinated effort between the RFL, WRL and WWR to:

  • Improve the running of the club.  There appears to be a lot of people with 'good intentions' at WWR, but not much clue... They need some guidance around best practices and where they should be directing their resources.  Surely the RFL can assist with this.
  • Improving the playing pool.  This is a longer term play, but you can't build a Pro club off the back of one Amateur club.  There needs to be a focused plan getting more people in and around Llanelli playing to help underpin the club.
  • Foreigners.  They need some, or more than they currently have, whether these are a from the North of England, France, Australia, NZ or the Pacific, doesn't matter, but there needs to be a coordinated effort to get at least a handful of more talented players into that team's squad to make them competitive.  Whether this needs to be investment from the owners, special dispensation from the RFL to sign more foreigners, or help from the WRL to create 'opportunities' to get some talented players from down under who want to explore Europe, doesn't matter.

If it was the WRL funding this club, I'd be definitely saying to move it, or turn it into an Academy side, but it's hard when it is being funding by someone's own money.  I do feel Wales does need another L1 club, closer to Cardiff (I won't say in Cardiff, as I don't think there is the money) or does need to have a 'Wales' team in the Academy structure to help with Development, but I feel the WRL doesn't want to take on that responsibility again. 

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Could they potentially move their training base somewhere more accessible? I know its football but Barrow AFC were struggling to recruit players until they moved training to Manchester and now they're top of the national league 

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They were able to pick up the odd win a few years ago because Oxford and Hemel were knocking about. 
 

I want them to do well but you‘ve got to be realistic. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if they didn’t finish the season. 

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11 hours ago, Yakstorm said:

The South Wales team, outside of their first season, hasn't been a team associated with a lot of success, however they definitely were a lot more competitive in their earlier years when they were based out of the Gnoll, then since they've moved on. 

  • 2010: 6th out of 11 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2011: 8th out of 10 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2012: 9th out of 10 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2013: 8th out of 9 (Gnoll, Neath)
  • 2014: 9th out of 9 (Cynon Valley)
  • 2015: 14th out of 14 (Cynon Valley)
  • 2016: 13th out of 15 (Cynon Valley)
  • 2017: 15th out of 16 (Virginia Park)
  • 2018: 14th out of 14 (Llanelli)
  • 2019: 11th out of 11 (Llanelli)

Even in years like 2011 - 2013, they were getting 4 - 6 wins in the season, which shows a respectable level of competition.   They they were taken over by the Wales Rugby League, who purposely ran them as a club to develop talent, versus focusing on being competitive, up until 2017. 

Even in the WRL years, and the failed Ironman season, they were a lot more competitive on the field relative to the WWR, which just further supports what @welshmagpie has been saying, that they are now too far away from where all the development is happening in Wales. 

Outside of the Llanelli Knights, I can't really see any significant club, school, college or university action happening out west, which does make it really hard to build a competitive outfit and does make you want to say "let's move the club" to where the players at least are, and that would make them significantly move competitive overnight.

That said, considering the current investors appear to be fiscally sound and prepared to play the long game, it's hard to tell them they should give up or move the club... clearly these people want to run their own sports team in Llanelli, and we should be happy to have their dollars coming into League versus another sport.  

For me, if this is where the 'Pro Club' is going to be based in South Wales, there needs to be more of a coordinated effort between the RFL, WRL and WWR to:

  • Improve the running of the club.  There appears to be a lot of people with 'good intentions' at WWR, but not much clue... They need some guidance around best practices and where they should be directing their resources.  Surely the RFL can assist with this.
  • Improving the playing pool.  This is a longer term play, but you can't build a Pro club off the back of one Amateur club.  There needs to be a focused plan getting more people in and around Llanelli playing to help underpin the club.
  • Foreigners.  They need some, or more than they currently have, whether these are a from the North of England, France, Australia, NZ or the Pacific, doesn't matter, but there needs to be a coordinated effort to get at least a handful of more talented players into that team's squad to make them competitive.  Whether this needs to be investment from the owners, special dispensation from the RFL to sign more foreigners, or help from the WRL to create 'opportunities' to get some talented players from down under who want to explore Europe, doesn't matter.

If it was the WRL funding this club, I'd be definitely saying to move it, or turn it into an Academy side, but it's hard when it is being funding by someone's own money.  I do feel Wales does need another L1 club, closer to Cardiff (I won't say in Cardiff, as I don't think there is the money) or does need to have a 'Wales' team in the Academy structure to help with Development, but I feel the WRL doesn't want to take on that responsibility again. 

   Or it may just be that the owner and CEO,who run the club,are in full time employment,have families and other responsibilities,including the ownership and running of the Sports Bar at the stadium,and cannot allocate enough time to running the club.

    I don't think the WRL are flush with money,and like the RFL are not in the business of micro-managing clubs.

  It would seem WWR were over-promoted too quickly to save the face of the RFL as South Wales Ironmen were hurtling out of business.

   Coincidentally,the Scarlets Union club,acted swiftly,it would seem on hearing about WEST Wales Raiders and expanded their interest,and sponsorship further afield, - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-striking-new-away-kit-15024321 

    while WWR are limited to very local sponsorship which doesn't get beyond the boundaries of Llanelli.


     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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11 hours ago, UpTheRaiders said:

Could they potentially move their training base somewhere more accessible? I know its football but Barrow AFC were struggling to recruit players until they moved training to Manchester and now they're top of the national league 

How did that work out for Hemel Stags and Oxford?

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Move them to Manchester and call them the Manchester Raiders, as has previously been thought any team named Manchester will have 10's of thousands queuing up to watch them.


Sex and Money are like Oxygen

They're not important until you're not getting enough.

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27 minutes ago, Bleep1673 said:

Move them to Manchester and call them the Manchester Raiders, as has previously been thought any team named Manchester will have 10's of thousands queuing up to watch them.

   A foreign club could emulate Ottawa who,of course,bought the licence that Hemel Stags had.

   I take it the purchase price goes to the RFL,and not the Welsh club shareholders.


     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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