England Team if you were picking it now

[Exiled Wiganer]

Could we pick Farnworth in both centre positions? He is managing to hold down a place in a rubbish NRL team, so, let’s face it, we would be privileged to have him grace these shores... he is a completely forgettable player, in a poor side, who wouldn’t be in any top 10 Aussie centres list. He doesn’t even hit Jack Reid standards and they are pretty low. We would be better off with any combination of Newman/Percival/Gildart, as they will be unknowns to the Aussies, who consider SL to be park level. 

[Rupert Prince]

43 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Rarely mentioned is Josh Griffin who is already in the train on squad, has that presence, physical attributes and is playing well.  As much as I like Gildart he struggles with the aerial side of the game (defence or attack).  

The bigger they come the bigger they fall.

People get obsessed with big centers.  There are not that many Gene Miles' around in fact.   The job of a center is to pass the ball...

[Lowdesert]

11 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

The bigger they come the bigger they fall.

People get obsessed with big centers.  There are not that many Gene Miles' around in fact.   The job of a center is to pass the ball...

I’m not obsessed at all and if all a centre did was pass the ball, defences will rub their hands at dealing with attacks.

Farnworth has a lot going for him, especially his speed but IMO Griffin is a better choice than him right now.  That’s not to say Herbie wouldn’t be in the squad.

[Saint Toppy]

59 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Rarely mentioned is Josh Griffin who is already in the train on squad, has that presence, physical attributes and is playing well.  As much as I like Gildart he struggles with the aerial side of the game (defence or attack).  

I like Griffin but for me he lack one key ingredient to be a good centre at international level, and thats pace. His size often gives him a physical advantage over other centres playing in SL and he exploits that well, but he's unlikely to have that at test level against better quality defenders so he'll end up just being used as a battering ram like a yawnion centre. 

[Lowdesert]

1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

I like Griffin but for me he lack one key ingredient to be a good centre at international level, and thats pace. His size often gives him a physical advantage over other centres playing in SL and he exploits that well, but he's unlikely to have that at test level against better quality defenders so he'll end up just being used as a battering ram like a yawnion centre. 

I don’t see him being used like that under Hodgson and I would say he is just as quick, if not quicker top end, than either Percival or Gildart.  

I thought Percy played well v NZ a couple of years ago but he has to regain that form this year.  Early days for him after injury.  

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

The bigger they come the bigger they fall.

People get obsessed with big centers.  There are not that many Gene Miles' around in fact.   The job of a center is to pass the ball...

The game has moved on.

The likes of Mitchell and Manu, who were centres for their countries the last time out, are pretty much the same size as Miles. Farnworth himself is only 1 inch smaller but several pounds heavier.

Centre is one of the key positions we have struggled in against Australia for years. Size, strength and sheer athleticism has often been a key reason why. Oh and the Southern hemisphere centres tend to do the job of a centre awfully well and have a much more rounded skillset, which includes passing the ball. They have to because they are playing against better players, better defenders and better drilled defences.

 

[Saint Toppy]

36 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I don’t see him being used like that under Hodgson and I would say he is just as quick, if not quicker top end, than either Percival or Gildart.  

 

Seriously !!!

Griffin is one of the slowest centres in SL

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

The game has moved on.

The likes of Mitchell and Manu, who were centres for their countries the last time out, are pretty much the same size as Miles. Farnworth himself is only 1 inch smaller but several pounds heavier.

Centre is one of the key positions we have struggled in against Australia for years. Size, strength and sheer athleticism has often been a key reason why. Oh and the Southern hemisphere centres tend to do the job of a centre awfully well and have a much more rounded skillset, which includes passing the ball. They have to because they are playing against better players, better defenders and better drilled defences.

You say for years... It been years since we played against Australia and last time we lost just 6 - 0. Before that, we have in fact beaten them occasionally.

I am tired of all this worrying about Australia.   We need to concentrate on our own game and play it at as quick a pace we can without errors.  Let's just worry our players are fit and as fresh as we can hope for.

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

You say for years... It been years since we played against Australia and last time we lost just 6 - 0. Before that, we have in fact beaten them occasionally.

I am tired of all this worrying about Australia.   We need to concentrate on our own game and play it at as quick a pace we can without errors.  Let's just worry our players are fit and as fresh as we can hope for.

This seems pretty irrelevant to the point you made. However as you make it England haven't beat Australia since 1995 and haven't in the last 13 attempts. As GB we haven't since 2006. Occasionally seems generous.

A major part of that is because of our traditional weakness in the centre and half back positions. At centre the size difference has often been considerable, never mind the speed difference. Anyone can see that. Talk like the bigger they are the harder they fall is u8s coaching. All things being equal any modern coach would want a 6'3" and near 17 stone centre than a 6" centre that is only 13 stone 5lbs, especially when the big centre is just as fast as the smaller one.

[Dunbar]

When we think about our centres and whether size should be a consideration, it isn't just about the centres they may be playing against it is also the likely edge forwards who will be aiming up at them.

The likes of David Fifita, Isaiah Papalii, Viliami Kikau and Angus Crichton are likely to be aiming up at our centres... I would want a bit of size defending against that bunch.

 

[Ray Cashmere]

At what point is Welsby a bolter for that left centre/14 position (with his versatility)?

hes been outstanding this season and has the physicality, speed and intelligence we’ve always lacked in centres. 

Still things to work on as it was his bolting out of defence that allowed Huddersfield to cross for their 2 tries but the rate with which he’s improving I’d give him a very good chance of being there come October. 
 

For me the centre positions are between King, Newman, Farnworth, Welsby and Gildart only. 

[Rupert Prince]

50 minutes ago, Damien said:

This seems pretty irrelevant to the point you made. However as you make it England haven't beat Australia since 1995 and haven't in the last 13 attempts. As GB we haven't since 2006. Occasionally seems generous.

A major part of that is because of our traditional weakness in the centre and half back positions. At centre the size difference has often been considerable, never mind the speed difference. Anyone can see that. Talk like the bigger they are the harder they fall is u8s coaching. All things being equal any modern coach would want a 6'3" and near 17 stone centre than a 6" centre that is only 13 stone 5lbs, especially when the big centre is just as fast as the smaller one.

No.  And you are totally missing the significant numbers of people who might want to play RL.  And double that by the number of parents who will not encourage young people to take up RL.

By your criteria we might as well scrap the game all together.

We hardly play Australia and the reasons there are differences between the two teams is the massive differences in organisation.  We are amateurish, or have been until recently.  We are amateurish from to to bottom of our game, not least in our organisation and structure.

It's nothing to do with the shoe sizes of our centers.

 

[Man of Kent]

9 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

At what point is Welsby a bolter for that left centre/14 position (with his versatility)?

Still things to work on as it was his bolting out of defence that allowed Huddersfield to cross for their 2 tries but the rate with which he’s improving I’d give him a very good chance of being there come October. 

But can England really afford a novice making those kind of basic errors in World Cup year? Defensive reads are fundamental for centres.  

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

No.  And you are totally missing the significant numbers of people who might want to play RL.  And double that by the number of parents who will not encourage young people to take up RL.

By your criteria we might as well scrap the game all together.

We hardly play Australia and the reasons there are differences between the two teams is the massive differences in organisation.  We are amateurish, or have been until recently.  We are amateurish from to to bottom of our game, not least in our organisation and structure.

It's nothing to do with the shoe sizes of our centers.

 

Talk about moving the goalposts. This is all completely irrelevant to a discussion about who should get picked at centre for England.

[Damien]

35 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

When we think about our centres and whether size should be a consideration, it isn't just about the centres they may be playing against it is also the likely edge forwards who will be aiming up at them.

The likes of David Fifita, Isaiah Papalii, Viliami Kikau and Angus Crichton are likely to be aiming up at our centres... I would want a bit of size defending against that bunch.

 

I was going to make this point too, it should be a big consideration.

[Ray Cashmere]

9 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

But can England really afford a novice making those kind of basic errors in World Cup year? Defensive reads are fundamental for centres.  

Of course not. But, the rate at which he’s improving he has ample time to cut out those errors. 
 

I don’t see him being dropped from that Saints 13 so that’s plenty of games to demonstrate consistent performances in D.

And on your novice point, the dreadful state of the international calendar these past few seasons added to COVID means we’re going to have international novices in that side. 

[Lowdesert]

9 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

But can England really afford a novice making those kind of basic errors in World Cup year? Defensive reads are fundamental for centres.  

Welsby will probably have made more appearances than Farnsworth so he isn’t a novice but another good player.

Seems only a short while ago we had few good centres to choose from, now we’ve got plenty.  

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Seriously !!!

Griffin is one of the slowest centres in SL

What I would’ve expected.

[Man of Kent]

OK, here goes.

 

1. Sam Tomkins

2. Tommy Makinson

3. Zak Hardaker

4. Herbie Farnworth

5. Tom Johnstone

6. Jonny Lomax

7. George Williams

8. Tom Burgess

9. James Roby (C)

10. Alex Walmsley

11. Ben Currie

12. Elliot Whitehead

13. John Bateman

 

14. Luke Thompson

15. Ryan Sutton

16. Morgan Knowles

17. Daryl Clark

 

[Ray Cashmere]

Tomkins

Johnstone King Newman* Makinson

Williams Lomax

Sutton

Bateman Whitehead

Thompson Clark Burgess

 

Welsby Walmsley Oledzki Farrell 

 

would be my most likely 17 at this stage 

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

When we think about our centres and whether size should be a consideration, it isn't just about the centres they may be playing against it is also the likely edge forwards who will be aiming up at them.

The likes of David Fifita, Isaiah Papalii, Viliami Kikau and Angus Crichton are likely to be aiming up at our centres... I would want a bit of size defending against that bunch.

 

And thats the stance that so many failed England / GB coaches have taken in the past. Picking players to try and counteract what they think the opposition would do instead of picking players who are the best in their positions and then let the opposition worry about them.

Fifita, Papalii & Kikau are great going forward but their size limits their lateral defensive capabilities, so pick fast, quick footed centres against and put them on the back foot instead of trying to match their capabilities and pick someone just because they're big.

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

And thats the stance that so many failed England / GB coaches have taken in the past. Picking players to try and counteract what they think the opposition would do instead of picking players who are the best in their positions and then let the opposition worry about them.

Fifita, Papalii & Kikau are great going forward but their size limits their lateral defensive capabilities, so pick fast, quick footed centres against and put them on the back foot instead of trying to match their capabilities and pick someone just because they're big.

A very strong argument to select Farnworth then. One if the quickest players in the NRL with good footwork.

[Saint Toppy]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

A very strong argument to select Farnworth then. One if the quickest players in the NRL with good footwork.

He's got to prove he can use it first - he aint done that at club level yet let alone international level.

[WN83]

I might be on my own but I feel the hype with Welsby has gone a little OTT so far this season based on 'that moment'. He's a cracking young player and his time as a full time international will come but he's still got plenty of developing to do, both physically and with his game. He's playing very well but would that put him above guys like Hardaker, King, Percival, Gildart, Griffin etc? not for me at the moment. 

[Hela Wigmen]

30 minutes ago, WN83 said:

I might be on my own but I feel the hype with Welsby has gone a little OTT so far this season based on 'that moment'. He's a cracking young player and his time as a full time international will come but he's still got plenty of developing to do, both physically and with his game. He's playing very well but would that put him above guys like Hardaker, King, Percival, Gildart, Griffin etc? not for me at the moment. 

Has anyone suggested Welsby for the England side for the World Cup? I’ve not seen anyone suggest so. He’s also been very good this season attacking. He was caught out a bit last night defensively, mind.