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Salford to move to Moor Lane?


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26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The lack of corporate at Moor Lane is a concern I would have thought, indeed its probably why Salford City are looking at moving out. Corporate generates so much more revenue per head than your standard punter its not even close. Is that money Salford can afford not to have?

If there is to be a Salford backed expansion at Moor Lane I would expect corporate to be the primary driving force behind that.

Ultimately Salford are now passengers in this deal.

Salford City are moving out of Moor Lane because it doesn't meet the standards required by Championship football, The owners of Salford City have aspirations to do that in the next few years and as they have said this move has come far to early from them but its forced their hand somewhat. 

the only ground inside the city boundaries that meets the requirements is the AJ Bell and if they dont buy in to it now when they do need to upgrade they will end up moving out of the city,. 

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8 minutes ago, To Be Confirmed said:

Salford City are moving out of Moor Lane because it doesn't meet the standards required by Championship football, The owners of Salford City have aspirations to do that in the next few years and as they have said this move has come far to early from them but its forced their hand somewhat. 

the only ground inside the city boundaries that meets the requirements is the AJ Bell and if they dont buy in to it now when they do need to upgrade they will end up moving out of the city,. 

I know its not really your point but when 25 years in we are still discussing and debating standards for our elite competition and doing the hokey cokey at various points when it comes to them, which is what partly drove Salford to move from the Willows in the first place, I do see some irony in all of this.

Edited by Damien
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1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Not really, an elite league should have minimum standards - something RL has failed to maintain over the last decade

What elite league, that’s the point it’s a fantasy perpetuated on here for years. There is not enough money in RL for an elite league and there never has been and there never will be.

Wigan and Hull are renters so they don’t have elite facilities of there own. Hull are struggling to maintain a viable presence at the KC whilst Wigan’s attendances have plummeted at the JJB.

So in reality RL has three elite clubs, Leeds, Saints and Warrington. Not much of an elite is it.

Stop this delusional nonsense now before it’s too late. We are a niche sport in the wrong part of the country pretending to be bigger than we are.

We as a sport, including fans need to grow up and accept where we are in the food chain. Once we do that we finally start to progress at a sensible pace.

The problem with these forums is they are full of talking heads. People who think they represent RL fans when they don’t. Ninety percent of fans don’t care about elites, minimum standards or expansion. They just want a team to watch in an adequate stadium once a week.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Wigan and Hull are renters so they don’t have elite facilities of there own. Hull are struggling to maintain a viable presence at the KC whilst Wigan’s attendances have plummeted at the JJB.

This about Wigan just isn't true. The first years average attendance at the then JJB was 10,536 and for the first few years it wasn't much different to that, give or take a few hundred. The last year at Central Park was 9,239.

The attendances for the last year before Covid was 11,432. In between they have had 16k+ averages that were higher than even the glory days of the 1990's. Every year at the DW Stadium prior to Covid has seen average attendances that were higher than the last year at Central Park.

Before making sweeping statements it is better to check your facts first.

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4 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

What elite league, that’s the point it’s a fantasy perpetuated on here for years. There is not enough money in RL for an elite league and there never has been and there never will be.

Wigan and Hull are renters so they don’t have elite facilities of there own. Hull are struggling to maintain a viable presence at the KC whilst Wigan’s attendances have plummeted at the JJB.

So in reality RL has three elite clubs, Leeds, Saints and Warrington. Not much of an elite is it.

Stop this delusional nonsense now before it’s too late. We are a niche sport in the wrong part of the country pretending to be bigger than we are.

We as a sport, including fans need to grow up and accept where we are in the food chain. Once we do that we finally start to progress at a sensible pace.

The problem with these forums is they are full of talking heads. People who think they represent RL fans when they don’t. Ninety percent of fans don’t care about elites, minimum standards or expansion. They just want a team to watch in an adequate stadium once a week.

 

 

These are fairly reasonable points 

The clubs that own their stadium facility are best describef as elite. 

Many rugby league clubs have been owned or managed by fairly average and even poor businessmen. 

Warrington and st helens stand out as very good clubs, but based on ground ownership featherstone rovers and Batley are fabulous examples

of teams who have progressed in the right way. 

My own team widnes vikings have received over £500,000 from supporters trusts although i think thst may include a proposed £120,000 injection of cash for next year. 

In that respect i view supporter involvement as critical for aspiring teams. 

The problem with wigan and Hull is most definately the fact that they no longer own their own stadium and ard therefore unable to create alternative revenue streams. Indeed as hull kr move towards purchasing their own ground again they will also perhaps achieve elite status. 

Clubs in our sport need to be central to the local community and the fact this maybe in batley or barrow, or featherstone of halifax should be embraced rather than neglected. 

The great efforts of whitehaven and workington and barrow have largely gone unnoticed by a critical set of rugby league journalists and north wales crusaders have also been a huge success. 

Our key strengths are right before us and in plain sight 

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1 hour ago, To Be Confirmed said:

Salford City are moving out of Moor Lane because it doesn't meet the standards required by Championship football, The owners of Salford City have aspirations to do that in the next few years and as they have said this move has come far to early from them but its forced their hand somewhat. 

the only ground inside the city boundaries that meets the requirements is the AJ Bell and if they dont buy in to it now when they do need to upgrade they will end up moving out of the city,. 

What exactly has forced their hand? The council now willing to sell the ground? Why has that happened?

It is a shame Salford RL are in this position where their destiny is reliant on the benevolence of other parties.

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29 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

What exactly has forced their hand? The council now willing to sell the ground? Why has that happened?

It is a shame Salford RL are in this position where their destiny is reliant on the benevolence of other parties.

The whole development model of the AJ Bell was predicated that the sale of the land around the stadium would pay for the build costs of the stadium, the failure of that sale due to various reasons has lead to the council / Peel now being left with more debt. Land around the stadum was originally only for sale with planning for retail and leisure facilities, that has now been amended to industrial and logistics in an effort to sell the development land. only 2 of the plots have ever been sold since the planning of the stadium was granted, that bein Barley Farm and Aldi. various deals have fell through including a large Ikea.  

Sale putting in an offer for the stadium and the Owners willingness to sell has forced their hand Gary Neville himself has stated it is a coupe of years to early for them but they have no choice now. 

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

I know its not really your point but when 25 years in we are still discussing and debating standards for our elite competition and doing the hokey cokey at various points when it comes to them, which is what partly drove Salford to move from the Willows in the first place, I do see some irony in all of this.

Couldnt agree more. 

Salford were essentially told either you move from the willows or you are out of the league. shame salford didnt back themselves to fight that off similar to what both wakey and cas have done. 

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1 minute ago, To Be Confirmed said:

Couldnt agree more. 

Salford were essentially told either you move from the willows or you are out of the league. shame salford didnt back themselves to fight that off similar to what both wakey and cas have done. 

They obviously couldn’t find an artist to knock out yearly impressions.

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3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Its not just about directly about playing budgets, its the loss of income from ground they gave up control of so they could fulfil minimum standards as defined by SL 

I just think its a bit cheeky of fans of certain clubs having a pop at Salford when they tried to do the right thing by their playing facilities when certain dumps are still considered SL standard

Who is having a pop at Salford? Other than demonstrating how difficult finding a suitable home can be.

No-one considers Belle Vue SL standard.

The club even gets reduced central funding because it doesn't meet those standards.

Basic maintenance is expensive. It restricts any potential growth and deters new fans and sponsors. Income is squeezed from all sides. Even player recruitment is made more difficult. 

So, where is this big advantage of 'deliberately' staying in an outdated, not fit-for-purpose 'stadium' ? 

A new stadium (or upgrade) costs proper money - not SL squad kind of money.

Wakefield have endeavoured to source such funding by any means from many sources over a few decades. Other clubs have had more luck in getting projects completed. There is always some element of luck in procuring a suitable RL facility and compromises are often required. 

If a refurbishment/rebuild of BV had been seen as remotely feasible 20 years ago, perhaps it would have been done by now? But again, it comes down to ££££

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1 hour ago, To Be Confirmed said:

Couldnt agree more. 

Salford were essentially told either you move from the willows or you are out of the league. shame salford didnt back themselves to fight that off similar to what both wakey and cas have done. 

And what makes you think Wakey and Cas weren't told the same thing?

Do you really think that they deliberately ignored these existential threats and thought, nah, we'll be fine where we are, let's just spend all the money we've saved on something else? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

And what makes you think Wakey and Cas weren't told the same thing?

Do you really think that they deliberately ignored these existential threats and thought, nah, we'll be fine where we are, let's just spend all the money we've saved on something else? 

 

I thought they were told that but called Superleague’s bluff & somehow won.

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Just now, Davo5 said:

I thought they were told that but called Superleague’s bluff & somehow won.

That seems to be the perception of some other clubs' fans. The reality is that if they could have moved they would have. Living on death row for 20 years is no fun.

Do you really think that Wakey & Cas said to the RFL, "we're staying put, try and kick us out if you can?"

A suitable stadium is an important part of being a successful club but not the only thing. 

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9 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

That seems to be the perception of some other clubs' fans. The reality is that if they could have moved they would have. Living on death row for 20 years is no fun.

Do you really think that Wakey & Cas said to the RFL, "we're staying put, try and kick us out if you can?"

A suitable stadium is an important part of being a successful club but not the only thing. 

Well they certainly were good at rolling out artists impressions that conned Superleague and kept them in the league.

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1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

Well they certainly were good at rolling out artists impressions that conned Superleague and kept them in the league.

Aa castleford and wakefield trinity own their grounds, they are in fact in a better position than Hull or wigan who own nothing 

Hull also pay a rental fee of £600,000 a year to play atca football stadium which to me makes zero economic sense. 

So Walefield Trinity a far better position than both Hull and Wigan. 

Incidently both Hull and Wigan have owners who speak loudly and clearly for super league clubs getting the bulk of the sky money when both these clubs have been in relative decline in terms of developing alternative revenue streams, over the last 10 years. 

Both clubs therefore need their own grounds on the scale of a warrington or a st helens before once great clubs start to drop off the radar. 

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3 hours ago, The storm said:

Aa castleford and wakefield trinity own their grounds, they are in fact in a better position than Hull or wigan who own nothing 

Hull also pay a rental fee of £600,000 a year to play atca football stadium which to me makes zero economic sense. 

So Walefield Trinity a far better position than both Hull and Wigan. 

Incidently both Hull and Wigan have owners who speak loudly and clearly for super league clubs getting the bulk of the sky money when both these clubs have been in relative decline in terms of developing alternative revenue streams, over the last 10 years. 

Both clubs therefore need their own grounds on the scale of a warrington or a st helens before once great clubs start to drop off the radar. 

You really believe that ? Wow 

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The irony of this...

9 hours ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

The problem with these forums is they are full of talking heads. People who think they represent RL fans when they don’t.

Followed by this...

9 hours ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Ninety percent of fans don’t care about elites, minimum standards or expansion. They just want a team to watch in an adequate stadium once a week.

 

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8 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Who is having a pop at Salford? Other than demonstrating how difficult finding a suitable home can be.

No-one considers Belle Vue SL standard.

The club even gets reduced central funding because it doesn't meet those standards.

Basic maintenance is expensive. It restricts any potential growth and deters new fans and sponsors. Income is squeezed from all sides. Even player recruitment is made more difficult. 

So, where is this big advantage of 'deliberately' staying in an outdated, not fit-for-purpose 'stadium' ? 

A new stadium (or upgrade) costs proper money - not SL squad kind of money.

Wakefield have endeavoured to source such funding by any means from many sources over a few decades. Other clubs have had more luck in getting projects completed. There is always some element of luck in procuring a suitable RL facility and compromises are often required. 

If a refurbishment/rebuild of BV had been seen as remotely feasible 20 years ago, perhaps it would have been done by now? But again, it comes down to ££££

Fair does to Cas and Wakey.

They accidentally , perhaps with some deliberation gamed the system and it so far has worked. 

Danny Richardson fee or a working women's toilet?

Own your own pile, get all the matchday revenue, do not share unless you are the dominant partner seems to be the key advantage.   Eventually they will both need to re-develop their grounds, but it will be heavy with the knowledge of various failed ventures amidst RL clubland.

Wakey especially dodged the bullet in avoiding an out of town venue like the AJ Bell. 

Salford, Wakey and Cas are all united in this. We all have grounds that are on the same size of land - 18/19,000 square metres. All have the potential to challenge the Big Six. 

Had RL and especially the RFL better organized its finances, then there would be a cash reserve from where the likes of Cas and Wakey could have cheaply loaned or have investment for new facilities. Would have collective bargaining powers to contractors and access to expertise to design the best.  Clearly better to pay half million on redundancy packages though.

Edited by idrewthehaggis
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56 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Well they certainly were good at rolling out artists impressions that conned Superleague and kept them in the league.

Were they the club's artists impressions? Were they a con?

The drawings were generally from whoever was promising the moon on a stick at that particular time -  and then failing to deliver. 

Each scheme was believed by the club (perhaps naively) to be true. A con would suggest that the club knew each project would fail. Do your have any evidence at all that the club lied about their intentions?

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2 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Were they the club's artists impressions? Were they a con?

The drawings were generally from whoever was promising the moon on a stick at that particular time -  and then failing to deliver. 

Each scheme was believed by the club (perhaps naively) to be true. A con would suggest that the club knew each project would fail. Do your have any evidence at all that the club lied about their intentions?

Quality drawings though over the years.

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6 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Fair does to Cas and Wakey.

They accidentally , perhaps with some deliberation gamed the system and it so far has worked. 

Danny Richardson fee or a working women's toilet?

Own your own pile, get all the matchday revenue, do not share unless you are the dominant partner seems to be the key advantage.   Eventually they will both need to re-develop their grounds, but it will be heavy with the knowledge of various failed ventures amidst RL clubland.

Wakey especially dodged the bullet in avoiding an out of town venue like the AJ Bell. 

Salford, Wakey and Cas are all united in this. We all have grounds that are on the same size of land - 18/19,000 square metres. All have the potential to challenge the Big Six. 

Had RL and especially the RFL better organized its finances, then there would be a cash reserve from where the likes of Cas and Wakey could have cheaply loaned or have investment for new facilities. Would have collective bargaining powers to contractors and access to expertise to design the best.  Clearly better to pay half million on redundancy packages though.

I'm pretty sure it was all accidental.

If the development company had fulfilled their legal obligation to build a community stadium 10 years ago we would have been playing in the middle of a bunch of warehouses next to the M62. Perhaps not exactly like Salford as I believe it would have been owned by a Stadium Trust with Trinity as anchor tenants with peppercorn rent and access to matchday revenue, but there would have been nothing stopping other clubs in the area playing there too. (The site is half-way between Belle Vue and Wheldon Road 😉 ).

It wasn't really that much out of town (3 miles and a continuous conurbation), but it would have been a big change in match day experience. Easier to get to for away fans, perhaps the opposite side of the city to the core support, but within walking distance of Stanley/Lofthouse/Outwood with a population of 22k.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley,_West_Yorkshire

Anyway, that's all (mostly) in the past now and planning will hopefully be passed in November and development will begin on BV shortly after. It still relies on the 'same' developer and the council showing some determination to push it through, but this is definitely the closest we've ever been.

Since the change of leadership in the council they have facilitated a loan to buy back the ground and even some surrounding land. The darkest days of losing ownership of the ground and going into administration following the financial crisis of 2008 and then being bought by a hobby owner who almost sent it back into admin after realising it was going to cost him £500k a year seem to be behind us. Next year could well be one of the most significant in the club's 148 year history.

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On 24/09/2021 at 09:41, Kirmonds pouch said:

What elite league, that’s the point it’s a fantasy perpetuated on here for years. There is not enough money in RL for an elite league and there never has been and there never will be.

Stop this delusional nonsense now before it’s too late. We are a niche sport in the wrong part of the country pretending to be bigger than we are. We as a sport, including fans need to grow up and accept where we are in the food chain. Once we do that we finally start to progress at a sensible pace.

The problem with these forums is they are full of talking heads. People who think they represent RL fans when they don’t. Ninety percent of fans don’t care about elites, minimum standards or expansion. They just want a team to watch in an adequate stadium once a week.

That's a very good post, albeit a very confrontational post.

Everyone loves the idea of "expansion" to some degree but it's done to death, and what it never considers is how do we expand without the money? In fact what IS the money required to expand??

I'm thinking London Broncos after over 40 years where are they now? How much have the various owners put in? From Ernie Clay to David Hughes is it £100,000,000??  Where are they at now?

I'm  thinking Sheffield Eagles after well over 30 years close to the heartlands, to attract players, away fans and consequently win the Cup off Wigan. Where at they at now?

I'm thinking Toronto wolfpack. Instant success climbing all the way to Superleague and in the process spending something like £30,000,000 then instant death.

The reality (hey maybe that's it everyone prefers a fantasy to reality - Why not??) is that we are contracting. It's a tragedy Bradford Bulls could not find that big owner, it's a tragedy Widnes collapsed. It's tragic for French RL that to shore up the English game Les Catalans and Toulouse will effectively have been be removed from the French RL to Superleague because we don't have enough "Big" English clubs anymore.

Is this "Great news" for the game in France.? Really? 

Is Salford's loss of rich backers, and mounting stadium debts that sees them evicted in the kindest possible manner by their local council "expansion" or is it "Charity"?

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3 minutes ago, steve oates said:

That's a very good post, albeit a very confrontational post.

Everyone loves the idea of "expansion" to some degree but it's done to death, and what it never considers is how do we expand without the money? In fact what IS the money required to expand??

I'm thinking London Broncos after over 40 years where are they now? How much have the various owners put in? From Ernie Clay to David Hughes is it £100,000,000??  Where are they at now?

I'm  thinking Sheffield Eagles after well over 30 years close to the heartlands, to attract players, away fans and consequently win the Cup off Wigan. Where at they at now?

I'm thinking Toronto wolfpack. Instant success climbing all the way to Superleague and in the process spending something like £30,000,000 then instant death.

The reality (hey maybe that's it everyone prefers a fantasy to reality - Why not??) is that we are contracting. It's a tragedy Bradford Bulls could not find that big owner, it's a tragedy Widnes collapsed. It's tragic for French RL that to shore up the English game Les Catalans and Toulouse will effectively have been be removed from the French RL to Superleague because we don't have enough "Big" English clubs anymore.

Is this "Great news" for the game in France.? Really? 

Is Salford's loss of rich backers, and mounting stadium debts that sees them evicted in the kindest possible manner by their local council "expansion" or is it "Charity"?

The reason we don't have the money is because RL hasn't expanded, by any demographic or metric, to get a broader supporter base that is more resilient to changes. We currently appeal to a very niche market that fundamentally isn't very wealthy - either in terms of the individuals at very top or the mass of people at the bottom in combination.

In a repeating circle of unpopularity the game leads to the collapse of Widnes or Bradford, because there are no benefactors with serious money involved to rescue them. And we're talking about serious money, not just well off people with good jobs. So we don't have the financial level of RU or the mass popularity of football...

You ask why the 10s or 100s or millions of pounds have been wasted in London, Toronto or even Sheffield when it should be obvious? The money is there in those places to invest that sort of amount, and that is the sort of money you need to invest to compete there. They wouldn't have to spend anything like that much in Featherstone, Batley or Leigh, and truth be told, they wouldn't want to. Its also true in Football, see Bury and Manchester City for extreme examples. Money attracts money.

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On 24/09/2021 at 11:22, To Be Confirmed said:

Couldnt agree more. 

Salford were essentially told either you move from the willows or you are out of the league. shame salford didnt back themselves to fight that off similar to what both wakey and cas have done. 

Leigh were told in 2001 to fit out the TS stand with seats in order to meet Framing the Future requirements and gain entry to SL, despite numerous SL clubs not meeting those requirements and still dont.

Leigh spent what was in the squad strengthening budget on meeting that criteria - Widnes brought in players and won promotion.

The RFL/SL are not to be trusted

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