Refereeing (Multiple Merged Threads)

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

Of course we do Dunbar I totally get that.

In this case however it is not just the referee, it is a team of officials including linesmen, referee and video referee. In this specific case the game stopped. It is not an incident that happened in the blink of an eye, like a missed knock on that was hard to see etc..

On the back of that I personally understand how a coach might say in his post match conference that he will be asking questions why it (Currie) was missed. We now know his frustrations were not misplaced as he was charged - but this offers the coach no solace.

This is the point of this thread though.

If a coach accepts his players will make mistakes then he should accept that a referee (team) will as well.  Otherwise we create a culture of blame that will do nothing for the sport in the long run.

[David Dockhouse Host]

On 15/02/2022 at 11:46, JohnM said:

How about educating those who perpetually criticise refs, particularly those who see a grand conspiracy against their teams?  Perhaps this method might work.

I frequently drop links into the shows we did with Ian Smith, some have come back with a more forgiving attitude after watching and many don't respond 

One person on twitter said they don't have time to view so either summarise or shut up. If people are willfully ignorant and offered helpful insight I've no idea.  I engaged with one lady who was very rude to the people involved and tried to explain they are humans doing their best but her hatred was very deep. 

I wish I knew how to improve perception, I have said before it's not refs killing the game but fans constant anger and disgust being shared far and wide 

[David Dockhouse Host]

35 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

This is the point of this thread though.

If a coach accepts his players will make mistakes then he should accept that a referee (team) will as well.  Otherwise we create a culture of blame that will do nothing for the sport in the long run.

Refs will make errors every game, therefore coaches and fans will always have someone to blame unless as you say acceptance or errors happens.

People claims it's the same at work or with players but....

Player drops ball, rest of team gets behind them.

Ref misses knock on, players coaches and fans are enraged and justify their abuse because ref made an error 

[fighting irish]

I think the biggest thing we can do, is make sure (as Dunbar says) that the rules are objective (unambiguous), thereby eliminating any burden of interpretation from the referees.

Players and coaches alike will soon adapt once the rules are written without ambiguity.

With regard to a referee being unsighted and missing say, a knock-on, then the touch judges ought to be able to communicate with the ref (by radio) if they see something he missed.

If there is any uncertainty, in the referees mind about the legality of any incident, the rule makers should make it quite clear, to whom the benefit of the doubt must be given (the team in possession, or the other).

For example, if it's a ''flat pass'' and the ref is uncertain about whether it was legal or not, should we stop and form a scrum, or give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, like the RaRa do?

The rulebook should direct the ref, one way or the other, then he is above reproach.

Any player arguing on the field will be sin-binned and coaches, or other club staff, who criticise the referees in public, or in the media should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. The NRL ''captains challenge'' exacerbates the problem.

Criticism, or analysis of the referees performances (a feedback loop) could be done on a regular basis (if deemed necessary) but behind closed doors and the findings remain classified (not for public consumption).

We need to make it clear that our rules are unambiguous, our referees are highly trained men (and women) of unimpeachable integrity and the game will not tolerate any public comment to the contrary.

[MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

This is the point of this thread though.

If a coach accepts his players will make mistakes then he should accept that a referee (team) will as well.  Otherwise we create a culture of blame that will do nothing for the sport in the long run.

How can you run a sport (or any business) with that sort of attitude.

We all have to work to standards or those around us will not be happy - it doesn't matter what your role in life is, if you are not very good people will be disappointed and ask questions regarding performance.

The Currie incident is point in brief. How could they get it so wrong. They (officials) have no excuses whatsoever. The tackle happened and it was abundantly clear that firstly it was a very hard tackle and so stood out but immediately thereafter two Wire players had panic all over their faces beckoning for medical assistance.

The video ref should have been all over it like a rash even if all of the on field officials missed it, which is staggering to think. Given the players reactions Kendall should have been communicating with Child asking for the video to be checked to determine the severity of the punishment - common sense dictates that given the reactions of the players something substantial did happen.

Back at base - the officials surely will have been roasted as to why, something so clearly obvious was missed by everyone involved.

Primarily it is this type of erroneous decision which are called out by coaches for consistency because they are the ones which are blatant and often contribute towards results.

I have no idea why some on here believe that referees should be immune from criticism.

This is not about berating them for the sake of it - it is about questioning their ability to perform to an acceptable standard.

Finding either side of a flat pass will irk 50% of the fans, not penalising a tackler that concussed a player, with the assistance of a video referee is borderline unforgivable negligence.

This is the same no matter what job you have.

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

How can you run a sport (or any business) with that sort of attitude.

We all have to work to standards or those around us will not be happy - it doesn't matter what your role in life is, if you are not very good people will be disappointed and ask questions regarding performance.

The Currie incident is point in brief. How could they get it so wrong. They (officials) have no excuses whatsoever. The tackle happened and it was abundantly clear that firstly it was a very hard tackle and so stood out but immediately thereafter two Wire players had panic all over their faces beckoning for medical assistance.

The video ref should have been all over it like a rash even if all of the on field officials missed it, which is staggering to think. Given the players reactions Kendall should have been communicating with Child asking for the video to be checked to determine the severity of the punishment - common sense dictates that given the reactions of the players something substantial did happen.

Back at base - the officials surely will have been roasted as to why, something so clearly obvious was missed by everyone involved.

Primarily it is this type of erroneous decision which are called out by coaches for consistency because they are the ones which are blatant and often contribute towards results.

I have no idea why some on here believe that referees should be immune from criticism.

This is not about berating them for the sake of it - it is about questioning their ability to perform to an acceptable standard.

Finding either side of a flat pass will irk 50% of the fans, not penalising a tackler that concussed a player, with the assistance of a video referee is borderline unforgivable negligence.

This is the same no matter what job you have.

I have been involved in business for the last 30 years and I can genuinely not remember a single instance of a leader criticising an employee, a partner or supplier in public because they have made a mistake.  I have seen a few do it outside of my career and they are all very poor examples of business leaders.

This idea that sport is now a business and so we must demand referees be completely infallible is ridiculous.

And more than ridiculous, it is impossible.  You can demand perfection from referees all you like but you will never get it.

If we demand perfection from referees, why do we not demand perfection from players?

[David Dockhouse Host]

2 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I think the biggest thing we can do, is make sure (as Dunbar says) that the rules are objective (unambiguous), thereby eliminating any burden of interpretation from the referees.

Players and coaches alike will soon adapt once the rules are written without ambiguity.

With regard to a referee being unsighted and missing say, a knock-on, then the touch judges ought to be able to communicate with the ref (by radio) if they see something he missed.

If there is any uncertainty, in the referees mind about the legality of any incident, the rule makers should make it quite clear, to whom the benefit of the doubt must be given (the team in possession, or the other).

For example, if it's a ''flat pass'' and the ref is uncertain about whether it was legal or not, should we stop and form a scrum, or give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, like the RaRa do?

The rulebook should direct the ref, one way or the other, then he is above reproach.

Any player arguing on the field will be sin-binned and coaches, or other club staff, who criticise the referees in public, or in the media should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. The NRL ''captains challenge'' exacerbates the problem.

Criticism, or analysis of the referees performances (a feedback loop) could be done on a regular basis (if deemed necessary) but behind closed doors and the findings remain classified (not for public consumption).

We need to make it clear that our rules are unambiguous, our referees are highly trained men (and women) of unimpeachable integrity and the game will not tolerate any public comment to the contrary.

Good post but it's worth adding that it is always a human making a judgement in real time, so there's always a degree if subjectivity based on how you see it, regardless of how clear the rules are 

I do agree rules clarity would make it easier but it will never be fully objective due to reasons stated 

[David Dockhouse Host]

Going to post this again for those who haven't seen it, well worth a watch.

 

 

 

 

 

[fighting irish]

32 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Good post but it's worth adding that it is always a human making a judgement in real time, so there's always a degree if subjectivity based on how you see it, regardless of how clear the rules are 

I do agree rules clarity would make it easier but it will never be fully objective due to reasons stated 

I had a bit of criticism lately, and been accused of being deluded (and as a consequence, argumentative).

Please believe, that that is not my intention, but I'd like to explore, your feelings on this one, if you are up for furthering the discussion?

Can you give me an example (or as many as you like) where with an objectively defined (unambiguous) set of rules the referees human nature leads to him having to make a subjective judgement? 

[David Dockhouse Host]

10 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I had a bit of criticism lately, and been accused of being deluded (and as a consequence, argumentative).

Please believe, that that is not my intention, but I'd like to explore, your feelings on this one, if you are up for furthering the discussion?

Can you give me an example (or as many as you like) where with an objectively defined (unambiguous) set of rules the referees human nature leads to him having to make a subjective judgement? 

Was a tackle reckless, you may say it is I may not be sure, we then have a different opinion on the same incident. You send off I give ten minutes. 

Professional foul, you believe a defender slows down play to save a try, I don't believe there was a realistic chance of a try. You give ten minutes I don't. 

[meast]

It's horrible, I'm totally fed up of trying to ignore ref bashers, be it online or in person.

The sooner we can get back to ignoring the officials and concentrating on the good, positive things that are happening the better.

Sadly, I think it's an indictment of the negativity that's borne into a lot of RL fans these days.

The refs are human, like you or I and make mistakes, we need to get back to understanding that and just enjoy the game again, we make the referees the story in RL rather than the players and then complain the media don't fawn over RL players.

I don't know how but we need to forget about match officials, they are there to their job not to stop our teams winning.

Admittedly the media don't help, either TV, written and social media, all look to finger point referees rather than ignore them.

[meast]

On 15/02/2022 at 12:49, daz39 said:

I remember someone doing something similar on a Huddersfield fans forum a few years back on the referee we had that weekend, these stats were then seen as 'proof he hates us' which led to him being harassed and heckled as soon as he stepped onto the field and EVERY and i mean every decision against us was met with a torrent of abuse and chants of 'cheat cheat' etc, it was embarrasing and stuff like this sets a dangerous tone to the idiots.

Was that the same one who was apparently assaulted in the car park after the game?

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

A foul is a foul Dunbar irrespective of what actually happened

Yes I agree with that BUT

"If it isn't a foul it isn't a foul"

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The referee may have made a mistake

By not giving a penalty No he didn't make a mistake.

There was nothing wrong with any action Currie made in effecting that tackle, as I said before there were 3 on field officials and 1 off field official, did they all simultaneously make the same mistake?

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, MyMrsWouldPreferSinfield said:

In the cold light of day, the match review panel have fully assessed the incident and charged him.

In the warmth of cosy office, with monitors to view and asses.

The disciplinary panel also reviewed the incident and considered there is no case to answer.

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

By not giving a penalty No he didn't make a mistake.

There was nothing wrong with any action Currie made in effecting that tackle, as I said before there were 3 on field officials and 1 off field official, did they all simultaneously make the same mistake?

For the purposes of this conversation, I don't care if he made a mistake or not.  The whole point is that we accept the ref's call and get on with the game. 

I thought the ref in the Leeds Warrington game was excellent. 

But on this thread we have someone saying that the ref needed to be consistent in his call on Currie as Dwyer as they were both charged after the game and this is somehow evidence that that the referee was poor.  This is exactly the attitude that needs to change.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, fighting irish said:

For example, if it's a ''flat pass'' and the ref is uncertain about whether it was legal or not, should we stop and form a scrum, or give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, like the RaRa do?

In any incident the ref either blows his whistle or doesn't, to do that he has made a decision about the incidents legality, during the course of 80mins he must do this contiously scores of time.

Some people think that by not blowing his whistle, the ref 'missed it' whatever it was, even if he is as you say is uncertain, he has still made a decision if he doesn't blow his whistle. 

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

By not giving a penalty No he didn't make a mistake.

There was nothing wrong with any action Currie made in effecting that tackle, as I said before there were 3 on field officials and 1 off field official, did they all simultaneously make the same mistake?

Clearly there was a mistake because the Match Review panel charged him and upheld the charge (granted with no significant punishment).

Clearly the man in the middle makes the final call, they can override their assistants.

[Harry Stottle]

49 minutes ago, meast said:

It's horrible, I'm totally fed up of trying to ignore ref bashers, be it online or in person.

The sooner we can get back to ignoring the officials and concentrating on the good, positive things that are happening the better.

Sadly, I think it's an indictment of the negativity that's borne into a lot of RL fans these days.

The refs are human, like you or I and make mistakes, we need to get back to understanding that and just enjoy the game again, we make the referees the story in RL rather than the players and then complain the media don't fawn over RL players.

I don't know how but we need to forget about match officials, they are there to their job not to stop our teams winning.

Admittedly the media don't help, either TV, written and social media, all look to finger point referees rather than ignore them.

I have seen hundreds of games in my time and after some of those games I have commented that the Ref has not been in my opinion not very good in that game, but that is where my criticism stops never once like some people believe have I said the ref is bent or favouring another team, just like player's anyone can have good or bad days.

I once made a frivolous comment on these pages about a ref and got a 7 day ban, I wasn't given the opportunity to say anything in my defence, so just sat back and accepted the punishment, and in consideration the decision was correct.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Clearly there was a mistake because the Match Review panel charged him and upheld the charge (granted with no significant punishment).

Clearly the man in the middle makes the final call, they can override their assistants.

So Ref makes a decision by giving no penalty, I didn't see any touchie running on the field with his flag up, neither did I hear if any touch judge or the VR spoke to the ref by the communication devices they have, then as you say the disciplinary deems no case to answer, could it be that the match review panel got it wrong, or as I believe siting/referring the incident was to appease some officials of the Leeds club who were making a complaint, but in the end justice was done - in my opinion 

[meast]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have seen hundreds of games in my time and after some of those games I have commented that the Ref has not been in my opinion not very good in that game, but that is where my criticism stops never once like some people believe have I said the ref is bent or favouring another team, just like player's anyone can have good or bad days.

I once made a frivolous comment on these pages about a ref and got a 7 day ban, I wasn't given the opportunity to say anything in my defence, so just sat back and accepted the punishment, and in consideration the decision was correct.

I've no problem with criticism of a referee's performance, same with players, coaches and fans, we all have a gripe now and then, as long as it doesn't turn into victimisation etc.

There's a difference between criticising a performance and accusing that person of being a corrupted biased cheat and making it a personal issue.

[Tommygilf]

23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So Ref makes a decision by giving no penalty, I didn't see any touchie running on the field with his flag up, neither did I hear if any touch judge or the VR spoke to the ref by the communication devices they have, then as you say the disciplinary deems no case to answer, could it be that the match review panel got it wrong, or as I believe siting/referring the incident was to appease some officials of the Leeds club who were making a complaint, but in the end justice was done - in my opinion 

The disciplinary charged him and upheld the grade A charge.

The only impact of that however is a minor blot in his disciplinary record - no penalty either in the game or via suspension.

So the ref(s) got it wrong, but not wrong enough because he's got a good disciplinary record... that seems odd.

[dkw]

59 minutes ago, meast said:

I've no problem with criticism of a referee's performance, same with players, coaches and fans, we all have a gripe now and then, as long as it doesn't turn into victimisation etc.

There's a difference between criticising a performance and accusing that person of being a corrupted biased cheat and making it a personal issue.

This is the point isnt it, by all means talk about a mistake a ref makes, or say he had a poor game because that can ams will happen while we continue to have human referees, to err is human and all that, its a garbage argument by idiots who say they aren't allowed to question refs etc. Yes you are, I often on here say I don't believe Childs is a good referee, not because of his mistakes but because he loses control of games far too often.

On the other hand at Workington we used to get Gareth Hewer who is from Whitehaven and had a relative coaching them. He used to get abuse at town for every decision against them, but he was easily the best ref we used to get at lower levels and I didn't once believe he was biased or vindictive in the way he reffed us.

So yes, questioning or criticising a ref is certainly allowed, abusing or claiming bias isn't.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

The disciplinary charged him and upheld the grade A charge.

The only impact of that however is a minor blot in his disciplinary record - no penalty either in the game or via suspension.

So the ref(s) got it wrong, but not wrong enough because he's got a good disciplinary record... that seems odd.

As I intimated Tommy, just to appease Mr Hetherington, and yes before you say it I do think he carries a lot of influence and clout.

[Harry Stottle]

56 minutes ago, dkw said:

This is the point isnt it, by all means talk about a mistake a ref makes, or say he had a poor game because that can ams will happen while we continue to have human referees, to err is human and all that, its a garbage argument by idiots who say they aren't allowed to question refs etc. Yes you are, I often on here say I don't believe Childs is a good referee, not because of his mistakes but because he loses control of games far too often.

On the other hand at Workington we used to get Gareth Hewer who is from Whitehaven and had a relative coaching them. He used to get abuse at town for every decision against them, but he was easily the best ref we used to get at lower levels and I didn't once believe he was biased or vindictive in the way he reffed us.

So yes, questioning or criticising a ref is certainly allowed, abusing or claiming bias isn't.

At last DKW we have found some common ground