Refereeing (Multiple Merged Threads)

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Interesting point, essentially your saying different refs will take different approaches and will assert their authority differently. If this is true it confirms that different refs will see incidents differently and give a different outcome/decision believing it the best course of action. Therefore not consistent.

I think this massively overplays what a ref does relating it to policing and crowd control. They are not the same roles, refs deal with paid professional athletes, this is very different. 

Refs approaches may be different but I believe this will be subtle and doesn't excuse in any way player behaviour or put the responsibility of player behaviour onto the ref.

Its not ideal but it is a practical reality. FWIW I don't think the authoritarian point really works that well and is associated with refs who don't do much to detract from "all about them" comments - Silverwood was a classic for this.

Consistency in a game is part of that, and helps reduce frustration.

[David Dockhouse Host]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not ideal but it is a practical reality. FWIW I don't think the authoritarian point really works that well and is associated with refs who don't do much to detract from "all about them" comments - Silverwood was a classic for this.

Consistency in a game is part of that, and helps reduce frustration.

But consistency as fans expect is a myth and will never happen because as I keep saying every human views incidents differently. So if fans are sat back expecting this they will forever be frustrated. Better they learn how and why this isn't possible, maybe ref a game and understand better.

Or make it mandatory for every fan or someone wanting to pass comment watches our episodes with Ian Smith

[David Dockhouse Host]

15 minutes ago, MZH said:

Someone define a refereeing mistake for me. Because this is the point I always come back to. All decisions are based on what the referee thought he saw based on a split second view, and all he can do is apply the rules based on that.

If a referee gives a red card because he thought there was direct contact with the head, then he has made the correct decision regardless of where the initial contact actually was. Perhaps the contact was actually on the shoulder and slid up. It's irrelevant. The referee thought it was direct contact to the head and has applied the rules correctly. Now if he knew full well it was chest first but he forgot what the rules said and showed a red. That's a mistake. But we can't mitigate against a ref simply not getting a good view of an incident, because he's expected to make a call whether he's seen it clearly or not.

Good point, the ref has applied the correct decision to what they saw.

If it turns out what they thought they saw was something else, that's a shame and is likely to even out over time.

How do you stop fans believing refs apply inconsistent decisions? 

[meast]

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/castleford-tigers-boss-lee-radford-points-finger-at-refereeing-decisions-after-poor-loss-at-warrington-wolves-49207/

The authorities could clamp down in this ###### for a start, again, is it any wonder fans blame refs when coaches do?

[Jughead]

Found Radford’s comments strange not least because they’re incredible for all the wrong reasons. The referee had an easy game as Cas made his decision making easy. 

[The Future is League]

Make the professionals do a full refs course and then perhaps they will understand the rules and not query the ref every time a decision goes against them, which in term MIGHT Educate some fans on the laws of the game, and in term give the match officials the respect they deserve.

[meast]

8 hours ago, Jughead said:

Found Radford’s comments strange not least because they’re incredible for all the wrong reasons. The referee had an easy game as Cas made his decision making easy. 

Exactly, I don't think there was anything remotely controversial in the game, I thought Child- no S, there's only one of him- had a good game unlike most in Castleford colours.

 It's just a classic case of blaming the ref and it's no wonder that fans and media do it when coaches do it.

Unless the authorities clamp down on coaches doing it we've got no chance.

[Eddie]

8 hours ago, meast said:

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/castleford-tigers-boss-lee-radford-points-finger-at-refereeing-decisions-after-poor-loss-at-warrington-wolves-49207/

The authorities could clamp down in this ###### for a start, again, is it any wonder fans blame refs when coaches do?

If they’d lost by 2 points you could possibly understand it, but those comments after a 34-10 humping are shameless deflecting of his own ineptitude. 

[David Dockhouse Host]

There is nobody to blame other than the players for the penalty count.

These comments deflect blame from the coach and team.

These comments justify in fans eyes their critisism of officials

[daz39]

On 17/02/2022 at 07:52, meast said:

Was that the same one who was apparently assaulted in the car park after the game?

Yes, and who continues to get abused whenever he ref's a Huddersfield game.

[daz39]

Quote

“We were on the back of a 10-4 penalty count and 3-1 six agains "

So is he suggesting the team who loses the penalty count have been 'cheated' or done?

His team conceded 10 penalties because of ill-discipline, are we now expecting ref's to not give penalties just to keep the penalty count equal?

 

Another case of my team lost so i'll blame the ref, this is from a high profile coach but it could be any Tom, Dick or Harry off any social media forum.

Fine coaches, give them bans or even in worse cases deduct their teams points, the respect to the officials needs to start at the top and the media need to stop allowing this to happen through their outlets, if not revoke their passes, ban them from reporting on the game/sport.

[JohnM]

Making comparisons with other situation, penalties, decisions, punishments etc is fraught with difficulties. No two situations are ever the same. The ref is there, close to the action. He sees more, feels more, picks up more because of that than any of us. 

 

[Dunbar]

14 hours ago, meast said:

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/castleford-tigers-boss-lee-radford-points-finger-at-refereeing-decisions-after-poor-loss-at-warrington-wolves-49207/

The authorities could clamp down in this ###### for a start, again, is it any wonder fans blame refs when coaches do?

This quote is unbelievable..

"When asked by Sky Sports reporter Jenna Brooks about his side’s ill-discipline, Radford stated his desire to have another look at the decisions.

“We will have a look at them in detail – some were Warrington’s fault and some we will have a look at that."

When I skimmed it, I thought at least he was saying some were his sides fault and some 'we will have a look at' i.e. the ref was wrong.  But no, for his sides ill discipline it was either Warrington's fault (how?) or the ref.

Those are the comments of someone who has no answers and is looking for someone to blame.  And, as you say, it filters through to the fans (and the players).

[JohnM]

...another point. Posting single frames captured from a video to try to evidence a missed foul or a refs error is to me, invalid. A single  motion-blurred 2d image from a broadcast camera at 30 or 25 FPS proves nothing.

[David Dockhouse Host]

I did a piece on this subject and tried a direct to camera short in something we like to call "rugby shorts" just as a little bit of fun.

Hopefully you will agree with my short message but would also like to hear thoughts on the format.

We have also tried several brief endings, which is the best ? It only posted to Facebook at the moment but hope to add to YouTube when we figure out which ending to keep

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1361836814234490/permalink/1430273120724192/?sfnsn=scwspmo&ref=share

[David Dockhouse Host]

The shirt video won't upload it's too big, any ideas how else I could share?

[OriginalMrC]

The Luke Gale red card is a perfect example of why referees just cannot win. That was a clear as day red card offence yet many people including some journalists tried to suggest it was a harsh call. Even when a ref clearly gets a decision right they are criticised. 

[Maximus Decimus]

On 15/02/2022 at 13:54, Wakefield Ram said:

It starts with the media. Just watched the SuperBowl and there was a penalty near the end which put LA Rams in the position to win. It was a very marginal call. But the players didn't surround the refs arguing, the commentators mentioned it but moved on. 

If that happened in the GF, there would be players arguing in the ref's face and the pundits would be banging on about it as the "turning point" of the game.

And what happens on TV filters down to amateur and junior game. 

We shouldn't glorify other sports, I follow a fair bit of NFL there is plenty of criticism around officiating. In fact, the whole yellow flag thing can be very frustrating.

[Maximus Decimus]

 

I've flicked through most of the thread, and whilst it is very good think there is a lot of naivety in the solutions. It's easy to say that fans should not shout at a referee, or that players shouldn't try and cheat etc but this is much easier said than done.

RL as a fan can be a highly emotional sport, especially if it's a derby or an important game. Fans by their nature are bound to be biased towards their own team. Take the following personal example:

Widnes were playing St Helens and it was something like 4-4 with 20 minutes to go. There was some form of a melee, and the referee sent off a Widnes player and sin-binned another. No Saints player was sin-binned. St Helens used the advantage to win 16-4. Of course Widnes fans were livid and booed the referee. Regardless of how accurate the decision was, I think it's wishful thinking to expect that fans who are emotionally involved in a game are going to sit back and judge a situation rationally or free of bias. It's also not reasonable to expect that an incompetent decision with potentially significant consequences, is going to be treated neutrally.

I was telling my class the other day, that probably the most angry I've been in my adult-life was when Lampard's goal against Germany wasn't given. I'm not sure how you can divorce the emotion and passion of sport (which is it's lifeblood) and the tendancy to be greatly aggrieved at an injustice against your team.

Likewise, I watched the Hull-Saints game and thought Hull copped a few bad calls in a row - take the scrum foul as an example. As a neutral, I of course didn't think the ref was biased, but I could see how a fan emotionally involved in the game and heavily-biased to his own club would see it differently.

[JohnM]

Agree entirely. However, its a different matter when coaches use their media interviews to criticise refs and decisions when there is no doubt a perfectly satisfactory  communications channel  between coaches and refs, where coaches can express their opinions away from the public eye.

Its also a different matter when fans pursue their vendettas on forums such as this.

[David Dockhouse Host]

Just a though on the ref being responsible when a game gets out of hand.

We want refs to be accountable for their actions yet some feel the players shouldn't be responsible for theirs, that's also the refs fault

[LeeF]

1 hour ago, OriginalMrC said:

The Luke Gale red card is a perfect example of why referees just cannot win. That was a clear as day red card offence yet many people including some journalists tried to suggest it was a harsh call. Even when a ref clearly gets a decision right they are criticised. 

I agree 100% with what you have posted but just wait for the outrage when he justifiably gets charged and is banned.

 

[Maximus Decimus]

Since becoming a dad, I've followed RL and sport in general a lot more on and off than previously. I remember switching on a game after not seeing one for a while, and it struck me how frustrating the game could be at times because of the refereeing. However, I'm not blaming the officials, the players or even the fans. I think the problem is with the game itself.

There are just too many instances where a decision is highly subjective, which leads to inconsistency and frustration. The most obvious examples are the rules around the ruck (holding down, interference, ball stripping, correct PTB etc) and forward passes/knock ons. Alongside this is the severity of punishment for infringement, which can allow a team to be too-easily marched up the field or mean that one team unfairly sacrifices a good scoring position.

Whereas in football, contentious decisions might be relatively rare and unless it is a penalty or sending off, relatively harmless, in RL there are roughly 6 tackles a minute. That is 6 times when a referee has to judge whether there has been appropriate time for holding down or interference, and results in multiple 50/50 calls when a ball comes free etc. It really is an impossible job to do this fairly. I especially found the stripping situation frustrating, as so many penalties around this seemed to be contentious at best.

To give the RFL their credit, they have made improvements in this area. One of the best things they did, was when they allowed a PTB to be retaken for things like stepping off the mark rather than giving a penalty, and I'm a big fan of the 6 again rule. It isn't as frustrating as seeing the opposition marched up the field for a very contentious holding down call.

I'm less concerned about the big controversial issues like sending offs etc as these are relatively rare and quite easily fixable; they also happen in all sports and can draw attention to a game. It is the drip drip drip of subjective calls that can at times make the game very frustrating to watch, and in turn infuriates fans.

[Maximus Decimus]

14 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Agree entirely. However, its a different matter when coaches use their media interviews to criticise refs and decisions when there is no doubt a perfectly satisfactory  communications channel  between coaches and refs, where coaches can express their opinions away from the public eye.

Its also a different matter when fans pursue their vendettas on forums such as this.

I completely agree, I've little time for the idea that referees have agendas against certain clubs etc to the point I didn't even want to refer to it. I'll admit, I have seen individual games where I've thought referees haven't been impartial but this is more of a complicated matter than corruption - for instance when a crowd has started booing a ref and chanting that he was a cheat, I've felt before that they've decided to double down to the point of losing their impartiality. They are after all human.

I also don't think that it is appropriate for coaches to have a go at referees; I do have my doubts though about whether that really has much of an effect on fan behaviour.

 

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

There are just too many instances where a decision is highly subjective, which leads to inconsistency and frustration. The most obvious examples are the rules around the ruck (holding down, interference, ball stripping, correct PTB etc) and forward passes/knock ons. Alongside this is the severity of punishment for infringement, which can allow a team to be too-easily marched up the field or mean that one team unfairly sacrifices a good scoring position.

Whereas in football, contentious decisions might be relatively rare and unless it is a penalty or sending off, relatively harmless, in RL there are roughly 6 tackles a minute. That is 6 times when a referee has to judge whether there has been appropriate time for holding down or interference, and results in multiple 50/50 calls when a ball comes free etc. It really is an impossible job to do this fairly. I especially found the stripping situation frustrating, as so many penalties around this seemed to be contentious at best.

This is the crux of it for me. The whole tackle, wrestle and play the ball is so subjective and open to interpretation. The vast majority of issues and complaints stem from this. It is also of great importance to the game and a teams chances of winning. In some ways when all competition for the ball has been removed it doesn't really add anything to the game. Maybe the whole tackle and play the balls should be reassessed to see if there is a better way to start the tackle.

Even if we compare to something similar like American Football every play is black and white and there is no subjectivity. Even RU while a mess with tons of rules ignored doesn't seem as subjective these days when it comes to the tackle.